Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey Guys,

I was watching this guy's videos on YouTube and the question popped: "What age should one start keeping venomous?"

I don't wanna write his screen name here 'cos I do not want people bashing him. Even though there were some obvious errors, his enclosures are OK and his snakes looked like they were very well cared for. However, he is sixteen and he has really dangerous snakes in his collection like Cape cobras, large Bitis and kraits!

So what do you think? Would you let your kid start keeping venomous at the age of 16? Is it even legal? What should be the starting age? How experienced should one be before getting into really deadly snakes like large Bitis?

Again, I do not want anyone bashing the kid here but when I was 16 my view of the world was much different than it is now and I did some irresponsible stuff back then that I regret.
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We are the best GALATASARAY

Just my personal opinion- I'd say no less than 21, with 25 being much better- and only if they are responsible and not into partying...
Before that age, its too easy for them to get into showing off for friends and getting hurt.
Before that, responsible kids could work with them, maybe starting at 16 or 18- but not without supervision. Just my opinion.

I know who you are talking about.I started very very young.Yet these were native.My son was allowed to have his first hots at 18.He was mentored every day before.Some people are natural.Some are not.18 is the legal age in my state.I worry very much about our young friend .Archie
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Archie Bottoms

OK... we go here again, I'm not advocating a practice what I preach, just sound thoughts. I do believe in this day our children for the most part are exposed to radical lack of responsibility..just my opinion. However, just to give an example..from my life, My late Father, friends,and co-workers with folks like R. Connant, Kauffeld, I. Hunt, R. Allen, B. Haast, & Bogert. He even had the opportunity to meet the great RL Ditmars. Having had venomous herps around me from the time I was born, my curiosity got the best of me..and before you knew it, my Dad caught me handling C. horridus behind his back @ age 8 yrs old. Now today, allowing me to continue this practice at such an early age, would most likely have him arrested for child endangerment. This was the 60's. He chose to sit me down and explain how serious it would be for me to be envenomated at such a young age. He was clear and concise and made me understand. From that day forward, I frequently handled hots, from Crotalus to Naja, under his supervision. Be it wrong or right, I can say I've never had anything other than 2 "dry" bites and 3 VERY close calls. My Father had 3 serious envenomations, all of which he survived. I learned from those.
So, in "starting age", I feel it has to do with the supervision by the adult, and the understanding of the child. Not the age. As long as the child has a CLEAR understanding of the result of envenomation....meaning..DEATH...but not having fear..rather due respect for the animal, and having a mature attitude in the handling of hots...well....age really has no bearing.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Peace, Bob

Agree completely.

Age doesn't guarantee respect, safety, and understanding. I would sooner put a hot under an 18 year old's care with proper understanding and respect for the animal, rather than a guy who is simply 35 years old and finds the idea of owning a hot appealing.
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2.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Copperhead
1.1.0 Eastern Box Tutles

True.

But there is another fact of life. People mature with time, biologically and psychologically. There is a saying in Turkish, "blood flows faster when you are younger". I think a 16 year old messing with kraits, Capes and rhinos is scary.
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We are the best GALATASARAY

I agree with Yasin. In rare instances, like what Bob describes, a youngster can be groomed at an early age by a parent who is knowledgeable, safe and has their head screwed on right. Although kids can have an idea about the reality of death, the reality is that most youngsters have no concept of death as it pertains to their own mortality. Having been in the field for a long, long time (and raising two kids of my own) and having responded to many cases of illegal keeping of hots in this region, I can only stick to the facts: most of the problems we encounter have to do with younger people as it pertains to the keeping of venomous herps. Sure, like anything, there are exceptions as Bob described and that's great to see but just look at the youtubes and all you can do is shutter. Kids develop and mature at different rates and to put an age minimum would be hard but I would say if you had to pick an age, no one less than 18 should keep them unless certain parameters are met. That will piss off most of the young-ins who lurk around but those who know me know my stance on this subject. The bottom line is that we do all need to work together and not against one another - our hobby is on thin ice right now and even though I'll continue to be able to work with venomous herps due to my avocation, I'd hate to see it blown for all of my friends who are mature, responsible and knowledgeable herpers.

>>True.
>>
>>But there is another fact of life. People mature with time, biologically and psychologically. There is a saying in Turkish, "blood flows faster when you are younger". I think a 16 year old messing with kraits, Capes and rhinos is scary.
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>>We are the best GALATASARAY
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Nicely said.

I also think that a law concerning age should be established....whether it be 18 or 21.

SOME 18 year-olds can (and do) drink alcohol responsibly, but most of the time it's for the pure intention to impress, showboat, party, and "get wasted"......as a result, the responsible teenagers are punished.

A similar approach seems applicable here as well..........set an age limit so the hobby at least has a hope for existing in the future.
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2.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Copperhead
1.1.0 Eastern Box Tutles

My thoughts are If you are old enough to fight and die you should be old enough to drink or own a venomous snake.
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Archie Bottoms

AGREED. See my comments below. Risk taking is part of being a teenager. Not without supervision by a responsible adult..

Matthew

I agree as well and while I'm not a veteran at hots I myself am 18 and I have caught some hots before but haven't kept any yet. I do plan on it later on and if I came across a copperhead I'd likely work with it. I know my limits when it comes to hots I know what I will and won't do. I've been keepin non venomous for basically my entire life. And I've always wanted to keep hots I research stuff on venom all the time (because I'd like to go to college for toxicology along with other herp and arachnid related stuff). Doing this research really shows you how bad these bites can be. Then when you do come across say a crotalus species or something you get an immense respect for the animal because you know how big that world of hurt will be if you get tagged. I'm not over confident and I'm not unsure of myself I feel I'm just at the right level where common sense over comes "looking cool" or showing off, because in the end a couple oh's and ah's aren't worth the money or pain.

Justin Smith

What do you all mean exactly by "working with"?

Personally, 16 is too young IMO. Teenagers tend to think they are immortal. At the very least, with adult supervision & mentoring ONLY..

Matthew

An important question that I haven't seen asked is who is selling 16 year old kids kraits and mambas?! They are equally at fault.

I know some of the people who sold some of those snakes.Maybe they will chime in.
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Archie Bottoms

Do they sell it to the kid or to his parents?

Again, is it even legal?!?
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We are the best GALATASARAY

It is legal they sell to the parent.
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Archie Bottoms

Then they can not be "legally" blamed. On the other hand if they know the snakes end up in the kid's hands, then of course the ethical question arises...
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We are the best GALATASARAY

Amen. Like teaching them how to play Russian Roulette!

Matthew

It is stupid and irresponsible to have any kid maintaining any venomous snake. In Florida you have to be at least eighteen and have a permit. Bites that are not fatal often result in permanent life-long serious damage. There are just so many great non venomous snakes to choose from that there is no way you could have gotten to the point where you are ready to advance past keeping them before you are eighteen. I would say that unless you are near a very prominent zoo or experienced medical facility with immediate access to antivenom, a bite from a krait, large bitis or many other exotics is going to be fatal, very brutal, or both.

" My thoughts are If you are old enough to fight and die you should be old enough to drink or own a venomous snake."

My opinion is that those are completely different scenarios . Without getting to far off topic. Basically in the military your actions are under constant supervision to make sure your following thru on your responsibilities . Your provided with the necessary equipment and training. Along with guidance and support. Your part of a highly structured program. You don't do it on your own as a freelance activity in normal everyday society .

For venomous snakes. The right starting age depends on the individual and the circumstances . I can't put a number on it.

Overall my feelings are in spite of my own background and how I did it . In general I think it's better for almost all(teens)to hold off until their older . I fully understand that there are special cases .

My view is not so much because I don't think younger people can handle it . There certainly are kids who are like I was but in todays world with all the legal ramifications as well as common sense issues. For most I think it's far better for them to wait. Theres more to it then just not getting bit.

Having already been there it's a lot smarter for the younger snake o files to wait until their out of school , place of thier own , steady job all that stuff. Then if the desire and right circumstances are there look into the hot side.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Let me refraze if you have the place the training the insurance and all the bells and whistles you need that makes it leagle.
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Archie Bottoms

I agree with Ernie. However, for me, the ramifications were completely different. When I started caring for and handling hots under Dad's guidence at age 8/9, there wasn't even an antivenom available for Micurus bites. However, because I was so wrapped up in herpetology, I had no peer pressure. I viewed kids my age as (sorry it sounds so hyper-ego), ingnorant brats with narrow minds.
The world and attitudes have changed in the last 40 years. We now have better treatment for envenomation, but the laws for a parent to expose their child to such a "danger" can land them in jail with the child being taken into CPS. So, all things have to be considered. Mind altering drugs, though available, weren't so readily exposed to middle school kids back then. Today, even elementary students are exposed to them. I mean, I handled my first Naja @ age 9, but didn't drink my first beer till 16. Times are different. So it all revolves around the environment in which one is living. I could go on, but don't want to bore you guys..maybe I'll write a book about it..HAHA!
By the way, like I've said, I've kept, handled, and bred venomous since the age of 8 yrs. In 46 years I've had 2 dry bites, 1st from a N.n.naja (blk pak), hit on the side of my right hand while retrieving a water bowl. 2nd was from a sub-adult C. basiliscus with 1 fang in the right thumb. This was lifting a hide box up with a short hook. My opinion was they were both feeding responses and I was lucky. These bites occured after 30 years of experience. Lazy, over-confidence, most likley. But the respect for the animal you care for must never leave. That is the key, no matter if your 8 or 80.
OK...I'll shut up now,
Peace + Love to all...Bob

If you aren’t old enough to bye a gun you should not be able to bye a hot . Just my opn.David

There is no law in my state that specifies how old you have to be to bye a gun.

well in Tx. it is 21

In texas the gun as in pistol is 21 shotgun or rifle or venomous snakes is 18.
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Archie Bottoms

Unfortunately, in this day and age, if you have the money, you can buy both, no matter how old or young. Again, it all comes down to Parental responsibility in educating, nurturing, and supporting your children. As the stewards of herps, (that we like to believe we are), we all need to make that step to join together..go to your local herp society..take your kids (keeps em off the street during the meetings)...bet the kid will have a blast and the parent will have a lifelong bond with the child that will be remembered long after you're gone.
"The laws in a society reflect the flaws"
Peace, Bob

Recent statistics show that most bite victims are men between the ages of twenty and forty, and that most bites are on hands and feet. Alcohol is typically involved in behavior leading to a bite and the victim is commonly attempting to impress friends when the bite occurs. Truly accidental bites are considerably less frequent.
REF: Alex L. Heindl
Curator of Herpetology
Marjorie Barrick Museum of Natural History
University of Nevada, Las Vegas 89154-4009
Heindla@unlv.nevada.edu

Just thought this was relevant to the topic.

Stats are a great start to identify a reason, but are not true to form. They just give us a base for pointing a finger. Stats also tell us most bites come from individuals trying to handle or kill a wild venomous snake. Your stat range of 20 to 40 is useless because those under 20 will most likely avoid hots. Over 40, they're either most careful or already dead! As far as alcohol being involved, sure, makes sense when you think about 20 somethings that party till the cows come home...and then handle hot herps.....BUT!!!!! I don't believe that is a major issue. Being a baby boomer child....we had everything from free love, free drugs, free thinking. Handling venomous "free hand" was common. PEOPLE....the best thing we all have going for us is...the snakes we love REALLY don't want to bite us in the first place!
We are the problem because of a lack of coming together. Pointing your friggin finger at a fellow herper does nothing more than to divide us all....all who hold the same common love for herps.
In this historic time of change in our Great country...lets all put aside our ignorant beliefs. Put aside our differences. Lets all focus on the big picture...saving our industry, hobby, business....we can work out the small crap later.
Peace+Love...Bob