Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey fellas,

Just an observation - while researching the current law regarding hunting on the roads and ROW, I gotta tell you, there is a lot of vitriol, make that poisonous remarks directed at Rep. Harvey Hilderbran.

I obviously can't tell anyone to take this stuff down - but realize that you're not making any friends, and it's very hard to get anyone's ear in a meaningful way, when we publicly chide people who are normally (some might offer "rightfully" held in a certain esteem.

Ok, off my soapbox and getting my camera ready for this season

Just because it happens all the time in public office doesn't make it right. Are you going to argue that what he did was honorable and just? That's a joke dude. In this life, you must earn respect.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I don't think it's a respect thing so much as it is a decency, tact thing. We've labeled him pretty harshly. I know if I were him, after reading some of this stuff, I wouldn't give us the time of day. Add to the recipe that he heads up the TPWL committee, and this becomes a horse I wouldn't bet on. And even as I say that, there's still a chance that they will let us hunt.

I know you are the tenured soul here - I respectfully ask how would you expect them to vote after publicly making labeling him the enemy?

>>I don't think it's a respect thing so much as it is a decency, tact thing. We've labeled him pretty harshly. I know if I were him, after reading some of this stuff, I wouldn't give us the time of day. Add to the recipe that he heads up the TPWL committee, and this becomes a horse I wouldn't bet on. And even as I say that, there's still a chance that they will let us hunt.
>>
>>I know you are the tenured soul here - I respectfully ask how would you expect them to vote after publicly making labeling him the enemy?

We already know how he will vote, since one of the TPWD commissioners paid him $5000 (It's in his campaign records). The vote can't hinge on one person or we have already lost. What we have pointed out to other members of the house and senate is that he pulled one over on them too. We also have to show the law in it's present form does NOT address any of the concerns it was drafted for. Cited were concerns over commercialism and safety. There is not one record of a traffic accident caused by herpers and yet over 3000 traditional hunting accidents in a little over two years. The does not address commercialism at all, just where the commercial collectors can collect.

Now I respectfully ask you, who are your people and how can you help us?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Msg me offline and I'll tell you. $5,000 huh? Politicians give in-kind contributions to one another all the time - why is it snake related? That's what rubs me - why are we as hobbyist or snakes being singled out?

>>Msg me offline and I'll tell you. $5,000 huh? Politicians give in-kind contributions to one another all the time - why is it snake related? That's what rubs me - why are we as hobbyist or snakes being singled out?

The answer(s) were posted in your thread below. I'll msg you later this afternoon. I'll be out all morning.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

To answer your question the answer is simply scum like this (or entities) start at the weakest link and move up the chain to achieve their agenda. Reptile enthousiasts are a very small groupin comparison, and they are starting here. It will only get worse if they get their way. Once the gorilla gets his finger in the door, he will come in all the way. This was said by my good late friend Keith Armstrong who passed away 2002. He said this when Parks and Wildlife came to our ETHS show in Houston 10 or so years ago, maybe more. They wanted to invoke the permit system, you know, the commercial permits, collections etc. Now look where it's gotten us! They start at the weakest link and go on from there.

Wayne H.

I would also like to know why you will not reveal yourself online to us all, if you are interested in helping with the overturning of this law. I have p.m.'ed you and have had no reply. This is a hunter/sportsman issue, why do we not have access to public lands to hunt if they are for sportsmen to do so? I can hunt quail on west Texas land holdings but not herps? Who will do the surveys of lands that would be needed to update lists? We have much to offer, yet more is taken from us. Respectfully, I ask again, join HCU and help or stay as you are on the sidelines offering tactical advise. Not meaning to be undec ent, but why the secrecy?

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Todd Hughes

Yes it's wrong to chide and make fun of Harvey. On the other hand, that should not be enough to take away his objectivity when it comes to protecting reptiles and protecting the freedoms of the people of this country. There are bigger issues than the little names one man is called. He is not justified to take away income from hotels, small local bussinesses and the companies that supply equipment to snakehunters just because he was called a few names or because a small portion of the people he wronged, reacted slightly immature.

and I have as a matter of fact.

Here's the jest of it. TP&W didn't want to deal with us, they wanted to sweep us under the rug as evidenced by their inability to check on anyone deep in private ranches. That would be a logistical nightmare for them. So they Told Mr Hilderbran that they needed this law, and paid him to get it passed which he had to do via rider because we garnered the support to squash the conventional method of passing a law.

Unfortunately for TP&W they passed a law that they can barely enforce. We are not going away and they are forced to deal with us. So they hope and pray they can actually see someone picking up a snake and write a ticket. Until then they hide in the bushes and write traffic tickets. Mean while commercial collectors and poachers are free to roam large tracts of private land undetected and undisturbed.

They want to harass the hobbyists yet it is not against any law to drive up and down the highway in a legal manner. It's not against the law to collect insects, and according to David Sinclair it's not against the law to collect DOR (dead) reptiles and amphibians from public roads and right of ways.

Uh, we are not going away. We are tax payers, and we are sportsmen. They will deal with us until they make it right.

Contrary to what Richard observed recently, we HAVE cut way back on the antagonistic remarks save for a few that we absolutely can not control.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I was asking just yesterday, the legality of collecting inverts in Texas.

The entire premise for the law makes no sense, if in fact, insects and DOR are not illegal, too.

Suggestions:

Lets get licenses, individual radio tracking identifiers (GPS Transponders), and practice notification to relevant law enforcement authorities when in the field. Just like pilots do with a flight plan. A limited deputization might be possible, providing an assist to law enforcement. Notifications of illegal and questionable activity might be in order. Reams of natural history data could be compiled with actual dates, times, and places.

There needs to be graduated licensing system authorizing greater scope and authorization based on ability, qualification, and function.

Let's please find some common ground and cooperation.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>>>When are you all going to snap out of it and decide to actually do something ???

You get no argument from me. There are five or six of us doing something, and the rest with their thumbs firmly implanted. We need 100% participation, even if the participation only involves writing a check. If you haven't contributed one way or another, I don't much feel like wasting my breath explaining to you what is going on, and when I say you, I mean anyone not doing anything, not you in particular.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Well Joe,

I sit here with my thumb, and it stinks, but the rider didn't really change anything. Some while back, the reasoning was "get off your arse, the end of roadcruising is upon us." Wow, you have six followers. Could it be, that despite many letters, from more than six people, the [bleep]tard rider was allowed to slip? It's still there, but who is enforcing it?

Who is enforcing the kingsnake.com classifieds? I know it's not you, but I'm sure that if you looked a bit deeper, you would find a few problems with those classified ads. Truth. Rough, huh. Well, you're the one who is proliferating through kingsnake.com.........it's pretty apparent that your view of the globe revolves around west TX.........don't let it surprise you when no one else gives a dump about protection laws that don't solve anything.

Shane
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Lifelist

>>Who is enforcing the kingsnake.com classifieds? I know it's not you, but I'm sure that if you looked a bit deeper, you would find a few problems with those classified ads.

Who says I am not doing anything about a few problems in the classified ads. You made an assumption Shane.

>>>>Truth. Rough, huh. Well, you're the one who is proliferating through kingsnake.com.........

>>>it's pretty apparent that your view of the globe revolves around west TX.........

A portion of my glode revolves around West Texas to be sure. Again you assume this is my only concern.

don't let it surprise you when no one else gives a dump about protection laws that don't solve anything.

Hey, we all make our choices in life. I choose to do something about what I perceive is an injustice. You choose to sit with your thumb implanted and criticize me. Truth, rough, huh?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I am not associated with this web site, Kingsnake.com. That's yet another assumption on your part. Don't pretend to know me or what consumes my time.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Well, presumptions aside, I'm not the only one with a stinky for posting here, so I digress. Ouch, reality.

Shane
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Lifelist

>>Well, presumptions aside, I'm not the only one with a stinky for >>posting here, so I digress. Ouch, reality.

The irony in this statement is delightful. I've posted here since day one, but you post here only to be presumptuous and critical with a dose of sarcasm. Ouch and reality right back at you Shane.

We got that you don't care, let's stop digressing. OK?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I was given a traffic warning for illegal U-turn by a local Sheriff and followed and questioned throughout the night on Hwy. 277. Even though I had zero collecting equipment(only lights and a camera) and had told the Sheriff I was not collecting, he still wasted alot of my time. This detracted alot from the peaceful experience I seek when herping. I know of a few people with similar experiences.

I am not sure I understand your point but you seem to be saying that since it is still fairly easy to get away with breaking the new law, nothing has really changed.

I would disagree. Even if there is not alot of manpower at the moment to enforce this law, there is still that shadow hanging over the heads of those who choose to break it. As with any crime, most will not get caught unless they continually do it. Those who do may face serious consequences.

If you use your lights for a u-turn is it still illegal? I am going to have to look up the old traffic rules and regs. Also were you walking or shining? I bet you get a lot more hassle shining then walking... But I wont swear to anything.

Best Wishes,

StevenX

I am not 100% sure but I think to make a legal U-turn you must put on your right blinker, pull over to the shoulder, stop, turn on your left blinker, then turn around. Also I think you can only do it when there is no double yellow line.

What I actually did was turn right onto a dirt road, turn around on the dirt, then made a left turn back onto the road... but I did this without using any turn signals. It was a long straight section and there was no traffic in either direction. Unfortunately for me there was a sheriff parked about a half mile down the road with all his lights off. To him it probably looked like I just whipped around in the center of the road.

I was doing everything that night but mostly roadcruising and walking. I did shine a few cuts on the straightaways since I was the only herper there and on those sections I could see far in front and behind me. I don't think he ever saw me shining because I stopped as soon as I got the warning for the U-turn.

I did tell the sheriff, when asked, I was cruising and walking cuts. He said he really didn't like me cruising but I told him if I saw a snake I would pull completely off the road, turn on my hazards and walk back. He didn't specifically say that was ok but he didn't say I couldn't either.

Funny thing is is in past years, I have had sheriffs pass me on that road right as I was in the middle of shining a cut and they never have stopped me or anything.

Another thing about the encounter is he asked me several times if I had collected any snakes that night and if I was carrying any snakes. I hadn't and told him so everytime he asked. He stopped me twice that night, both times asking me the same questions. Also he drove past me slowly three times just watching me. Fine, I guess, but he never said word one about no collecting from the road. I think he was looking to bust somebody and this occured during the so called "grace period" during which TPWD said edjucation was their number one goal, not busting. It's a good thing I knew not to collect as I think this sheriff wanted to write a citation.

This is the kind of stuff we need incorporated into one big timeline of how the legislation and law enforcement policies have deteriorated in TX. I have some information on the whole road-cruising saga as well as some documentation on various sting operations that I've been hoping to get put onto one or more of my web sites. Alas, I keep getting sidetracked with other projects but hopefully those will wrap up "soon" so I can post them.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet