Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Post shed pics - quick photos as I'm about to be late to work.
8 of the 14 have shed. All appear to be hypos.
The sire is a 06 possible super salmon possible jungle from Pete Kahl. Mom is a 04 normal harlequin from Gray Rushin.
I'm pretty sure both of these are males.. these two are the most obvious "possible" jungles.

male #1

male #2

so what do you think?? jungles?

thanks for looking and for any comments you want to throw my way.
Patrick

Very nice!! If those aren't Jungles, I don't know what is!

I would say jungles 100%

Those two still look like Jungles to me
. . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

As to your question. . . Only the good Lord could tell you right now. You could have ended up with those types of visual animals without the Jungle gene involved possibly. Are they most likely Jungles as well as Harlquiin? Yes, but the could be either. Only future breedings can sort that out most likely unless we get access to some genetic testing of some sort. LOL I am PRETTY sure they won't be leaving your place before that ever happens, if at all, anyways. Or are you INSANE?
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Ty Hege
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

previous breeding (or 1 of 2 maybe). As stated before they can be difficult to tell but if Patrick isn't going to hold on to them he can certainly send them here and I'll figure it out myself or just keep them forever. These are 2 siblings from the "other" breeding that was done and with animals like Patrick or these I find it VERY difficult to see any negatives. It is up to every individual to label their animals honestly and the purchaser to decide if they want to purchase them. I myself would not hesitate to purchase either of the animals he posted if I had the money and they were for sale. I SERIOUSLY doubt they are though.

I understand where everyone is coming from but I have to agree to disagree on this one!
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Ty Hege
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

So do these non-Jungle Harlequins (these pics are from halequinboa.com's site ) ---

non-Jungle Harlequins --

I'm not saying that yours aren't Jungles, but I don't think that your going to ever know until you breed each one to a known Jungle and make Supers (or not). Even if you breed the possible Jungle parent to a normal and prove him out to be a Jungle, doesn't mean that these babies are. This is one good reason that breeding Jungles to other abberant lines is not very good thing to do. Don't get me wrong - they look awesome, but they're totally unknown genetically, and someone down the road may buy one , then re-sell it and the name Jungle gets tagged on it - it makes babies and they sell as Jungles ( and may not really be) -- get my point ?
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Snake room janitor

I don't mean to sound defensive since I was asking for opinions but I wanted to share my reactions.

I do think I have some reliable info as to the basic genetics of the parents since they were bought from respected and trusted individuals so I do know "something" of the genetics of the babies - but you are correct in that I chose to breed a combination of genetic traits that can both show similar aberrancies and that I can't be certain as to what is causing these particular aberrancies - which is again why I was asking the question in the first place and why I labled them as I did.

Also, I'm not sure why you chose to say that this sort of breeding was "not really a good thing to do.." sort of sounds like maybe you believe that other breeders should not have tried to breed different strains of albinos together..? I tend to think that we learn something from experimentation and trying new things - but someone could disagree with that. and I'm not sure we can really expect any one breeder to be responsible for what some other individual will do once we have sold a boa.. do you believe producing hypo-hogs or any other crosses is also "not a really good thing to do" based on the possibility that at some point down the road someone else could lable that boa as something else?

comparing hypo x hoggs to harlequin x jungles is really kinda un fair cause yes i do believe it is un responsible to breed a pure hogg to anything other then a pure hogg but thats only cause isla de cochinos boas are extinct in the wild but breeding a jungle to a harly i see no issues with other then the fact there may be some difficulty determining whats what but those are your personal demons and arent really gunna affect an extinct population of boas becuase when it comes to morphs realistically people are gunna pay what they see fit based on how visually appealing said animal is

that sounds fair - I was just using the hypo-hogg as an example of cross-breeding.

I didn't intend to imply any stance in favor or against breeding hypos to hoggs.

Patrick

Although it was once thought that Hog Island boas were extinct in the wild this has been proven incorrect. In fact a small group of them were imported a few years ago.

Sorry -- I didn't mean to make you defensive about this, and I believe that you have labeled them correctly. You certainly are not responsible for other peoples labeling systems either.

I do believe that the Albino strains should've been bred together in order to find out that they're not compatable -- but now we know, and I don't think that it should be re-done.

I didn't quite follow your Hypo/Hog example as pertaining to this.

I guess that I look at breedings as having positive, and negative affects in the market, and knowledge in general - and to me keeping things as clear as possible is a positive thing. To me , this type of breeding potentially has more negatives than positives , and here's why --

-- Jungles are a genetic mutation (Co-dom), as opposed to (polygenic)line bred abberrancies such as Harlequins, Aby's and (imo)Cyclones. To me, it would make sense and be fine to breed Harlequins to Abys, or other type of polygenic lines because they can all be labeled as Aby Harlys, (or whatever the lines are). But when mixing with a Jungle, now we're dealing with a genetics that can't be separated visually with any certainty . But since they (both) resemble Jungle traits so much, it will be easy for newbies, or people less interested in the knowledge of the genetics, to potentially foul up other peoples breeding plans by selling potentially false Jungles.
-- To make things even more questionable, is that you used a possible Jungle instead of a known Jungle. Now you still don't know what the father is, or the babies are. So nothing has been learned as I see it, just many more questions.
-- Point #3 , A possible Jungle was bred to a Harly last year, with the same type of outcome as yours - not learning anything from the breeding , with the exception (in my opinion) that we shouldn't repeat this type breeding.

The very best outcome in my opinion would be for you to breed your possible Jungle to a normal and hope that he's not a Jungle so that you'd know with certainty what your babies are. If he is a Jungle , then we have a litter of confusion that WILL make more confusion for others in future breedings.

I will again say, that this isn't written in anger, or hostility towards you. Please don't like me any more or less for this, as I appreciate your shared opinions too. Take care, D
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Snake room janitor

>>-- Jungles are a genetic mutation (Co-dom), as opposed to (polygenic)line bred abberrancies such as Harlequins, Aby's and (imo)Cyclones. To me, it would make sense and be fine to breed Harlequins to Abys, or other type of polygenic lines because they can all be labeled as Aby Harlys, (or whatever the lines are). But when mixing with a Jungle, now we're dealing with a genetics that can't be separated visually with any certainty .

Myself (and maybe others) are interested in this breeding to see what the outcome of a junglexharli would be and how the two genes would affect each other. Could the jungles be picked out easily or not? With the breeding history being poss. jungles so far we really don't have an answer one way or the other yet. I'm still about 2 (maybe 3) years away from breeding my jungle to my harlis. I have visions of very abarrent jungles with lots of color.

I also think the abyxharli, etc, breedings would yeild some interesting results. I wonder if anyone has done abyxjungle yet?

>> The very best outcome in my opinion would be for you to breed your possible Jungle to a normal

I think that's a great idea, that way the poster will know one way or the other if these kids are poss. jungles or not. Maybe these are just very abarrent harlis which has happened and part of the original confusion years ago of people wondering if the traits were related (which we know they are not since F2 and F3 harlis do not look like super jungles).

my $0.02
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

I guess I just don't have as many concerns or criteria about what makes a breeding "good" or "bad".. I figure we can learn something one way or the other - so it seems it should be all good in the end.

I would have loved to use my definite jungle male, but I didn't think he was ready and the salmon possible jungle was a year older so I used him.

I was referring to the Paradigm when I referred to the Albino to Albino breeding.. The hypo-hog thing was to illustrate how the breeder is not responsible if someone buys a correctly labled "hypo-hog" and then re-sells it as something else.

Good luck with your projects Dave - I say you are free to breed how you want.

Patrick

....

As has already been said, "possible" jungles is the correct moniker until proven. If these had been produced from a Jungle X Normal, then I'd say hands down, I'd call them Jungle. But, given that the tendancies for aberrancy could have been contributed by either line, only one way to know for sure...

Best of luck with them, they're lookers!

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

Those are some killer lookin kids! I really like the chain-link pattern on the male#2, he can come live with me if you are running out of room. (hee!)

It's so hard to tell if they are jungles or not, hopefully you can prove the poss jungle sire out one way or the other and that'll help put at least some of the questions to rest. At least he proved out as a super!
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

KILLER!!! And plan on doing it myself. To me it's about making Beautiful boas and not about making money.
For those who are more about the money, they should probably stay inside the box and bread the traits that will make the obvisous morphs.





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People will say what they want to say, believe what they want to believe. No matter what proof you have to the contrary.

Brendan
BCI by Design

B,
I better get first shot at one of the offspring from that Jungle when it breeds, or if you plan to sell it, first offer.

Warren

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Dr Warren Booth
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology
3309 Gardner Hall
Raleigh, NC 27695-7613

I seemed to have bothered people with my comments, and I'm in the minority in my thinking. I'll be done now , but with a couple things to clarify first .

-- Skyslinger quote >> and with animals like Patrick or these I find it VERY difficult to see any negatives.

There's absolutely nothing negative about their looks. I never meant for anyone to think that. And Erins litter last year had some that looked even more Jungly to me. They looked scrumptous

-- AbsolutelyApril's quote >> I also think the abyxharli, etc, breedings would yeild some interesting results.

They have 2 or 3 times , and they look sweet.

>> Myself (and maybe others) are interested in this breeding to see what the outcome of a junglexharli would be and how the two genes would affect each other. Could the jungles be picked out easily or not?

I've seen many Harli's and thought to myself, if someone told me this was a Jungle, I'd believe it -- that's how good they often look. I don't see how it could ever be easy picking a Jungle from this type of breeding when I couldn't pick them out of seperate breedings , lol.

-- Patoquack's quote(s) >> I guess I just don't have as many concerns or criteria about what makes a breeding "good" or "bad"..

I didn't mean to say this was a bad breeding (technically I didn't ) , but weather if its a good or bad "idea" to repeatedly breed two animals (one being a morph) that look so similar that they can't be determined which is which/or both . My whole basis for my thought is based on the future of these offspring, and their offspring -- much like the Kahl/Sharps making DH's , and the confusion that would follow.
I withdraw anything that I said that you took as me meaning "good", or "bad" breedings.

-- quote from Brendan >> To me it's about making Beautiful boas and not about making money.
For those who are more about the money, they should probably stay inside the box and bread the traits that will make the obvisous morphs.

Well I certainly am not about making money in this hobby, as I spend way more then I sell, lol. I guess that I find it important to be able to eventually identify the said morphs -- this is probably because I love abberancies above all else in Boa patterns, and I'm a huge fan of the Harlequins, and also happen to own Jungles, and Abys -- I cherish them alot. I plan on owning Cyclones as well, but I'm waiting until it is determined that they're line bred, or genetic(morph-wise). I don't know of any "box" that I'm in, or out of, lol.

-- last quote from Patoquack >> I was referring to the Paradigm when I referred to the Albino to Albino breeding.. The hypo-hog thing was to illustrate how the breeder is not responsible if someone buys a correctly labled "hypo-hog" and then re-sells it as something else.

Funny that you used those two examples, as I have produced Super Hypo/Hogs (Sunsets),and I know first hand how re-sellers change the label for a more profitable sale. I also own a Sharp, Caramel, and Parahet , lol But i didn't understand how you were refferring to the Paradigm in this scenario, as the Caramels (once thought to be a recessive Hypo), does'nt look like a Sharp Albino -- oh well.

Best of luck to you as well -- no hard feeling from my end. I'm sorry to have spoken in this thread . I think my posts were thought to have a certain "tone" in them , but they really didn't get written in that way. I'm just not good a typing elequaintly.
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Snake room janitor

I am not a boa breeder (Just own one Argentine Boa as a pet), mainly just a admirer, but I see and understand what your saying.

I am suprised at how many people working with Jungles and Harli's are planning on doing the same pairing. My question to them is "aren't you going to have the same issues as the OP is having?" While the results might be wicked awsome, the underlying problem is are they Jungle or not?

When those of you who have True Swedish Line Jungles breed them to your Haliquins and all the babies come out looking Jungle'ish, won't that be a problem? I guess there are those out there who won't care if its a Jungle, or a Harli or a JungleHarli, I am not up to date on the boa world, but for me, If I was wanting to purchase a cool looking abarent boa, I would like to know if its a Jungle or a Harli....but maybe people don't care.

I don't think David was knocking the Boas that where pictured, who can say anything negative about those beauties...they are awsome...but like the OP mentions, they are "Possible" Jungles...the only way to know...is if someone bought one and bred it themselves...right?

I could see someone buying one, breeding it, producing abarent offspring, and then calling the offspring Jungles...when they might not be...because of the abarent nature of the Harli's...

I understood what David was trying to say, I don't think he was trying to say anything bad about the boas themselves, but you do have to sit back and see the overall picture....when breeding two abarent boas together, where 1 is an actual genetic morph (CoDom) and the other isn't the results can open a can of worms for the breeder. Heck it happens with just Jungles bred to normals, how many posts have we seen where the "Possible" jungle looks pretty darn normal. Or Actual Jungles that look pretty normal that through offspring that look totally jungle.

Best of luck everyone on whatever pairing you do...

Is this a Jungle or a Harli?

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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

n/p
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uncommonboa.com

Jungle...

(I understood what David was trying to say, I don't think he was trying to say anything bad about the boas themselves, but you do have to sit back and see the overall picture....when breeding two abarent boas together, where 1 is an actual genetic morph (CoDom) and the other isn't the results can open a can of worms for the breeder. Heck it happens with just Jungles bred to normals, how many posts have we seen where the "Possible" jungle looks pretty darn normal. Or Actual Jungles that look pretty normal that through offspring that look totally jungle.)

If you don't think that the Harlequin is morph. You might rethink things just a bit.
Keep smiling, have a great night.
Later B
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People will say what they want to say, believe what they want to believe. No matter what proof you have to the contrary.

Brendan
BCI by Design

LOL

"If you don't think that the Harlequin is morph. You might rethink things just a bit."

I was under the impression that Jungles where a Co-Dominant Morph, while the Harliquins where a Poligentic trait right?

Taken from HarliquinBoa.com website:

The anomolous aspects in both pigment and pattern produced from this project are tied directly to a single bloodline and appears to be more dependant upon the direct relationship to that lineage, rather than to the visual appearence of the parental contributor. For this reason, I have taken the rather unpresidented step of naming the bloodline itself, rather than any one particular appearence produced from it, so I think it's important to clairify here that "Harlequin" is not the name of a monotypical "morph", but instead referes to a specific bloodline with non-recessive, variably expressed characteristics, which has now proven itself over multiple generations to be much more than a simple "homogenization effect" created by random "selective breeding".

So is the Harliquin something that can be bred out of a line? Meaning if instead of breeding for more extreme Harliquins could the opposite be done? Keep breeding for more normal looking boas? Can that be done with Jungles? Can a Jungle be bred generation after generation to look more normal?

So you are saying Harliquins are a type of Genetic Morph of Abarent Boas?
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

A "monotypical" morph either,nor have I seen any clear evidence that points to a single gene set mutation.(except for the production of "possible supers",which makes them much more anomolous.)with a true "morph mutation" there are rarely any "possible blank,blanks"...no evidence has yet been made public,to my knowledge that any "super jungle" has produced an entire litter of zero doubt heterozygous jungles(meaning visually expressive jungles without any "possibles" in the mix,that were then raised & bred to show they were in fact het. gene carriers.) Jungles,just like Harlequins,are a genetic line of aberrant boas,in which pigmentation is also affected,neither one of these lines owes it's properties entirely to selective breeding alone,but rather to a genetic mutation specifically unique to that bloodline,hence the adherence to "swedish bloodine jungles".
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

First of all, let me start by saying that I'm not a geneticist. I'm not even an amature geneticist. So forgive me if this sounds rediculous, I'm speaking from a layman's perspective. The primary difference between the Jungle and the Harli "lines" is the "super form". This is not to say that there is, or is not, evidence that the supers produce complete litters of hets., but it is to say that there is an obvious repeatable visual form (morph, to me). It is well proven that successfully breeding two Jungles results in some offspring that are unquestionably distinct. I have not seen, or even heard it suggested, that there is a super Harli. So, based on this point alone, I see the super Jungle as clearly a morph (as Jungles are really het. for Super Jungle), if applying the defenition that a morph "is a distinct form". Super Jungles are, at least, phenotypically very distinct. Jungles and Harlis you could confuse, as we have seen. Super Jungles...not, they are IMHO unquestionably distinct.

No offense to anyone or any lines, just trying to wrap my mind around the difference between "morph" and "line".

Thanks for reading and any feedback.

Mark

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uncommonboa.com

I don't believe there is a 'super' harli just that the genetics involved are not fully understood at this time, it's believed to be more than just a 'line-bred' trait and I would agree with that. Is it a combination of genetic dominant traits? Is it something more complex? Don't know yet.

I'm on the very far fringes of the harlis, so just throwing my $0.02 out there. Hopefully Tim and/or Brendan will share more as they have the 'front row seats'.

I wish more was being said about the jungles and litter results from super jungles but people don't seem to want to share. possibly because of a financial impact it may have? (I am speculating of course as I have no idea!)

*Nice* super by the way! *drool*
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

Thanks for the feedback (and compliment!), April.

I guess that's where I am at. To me, the Jungle is a proven morph. I'm not saying that the Harli is not a morph, just that I don't understand enough about what's going on with them to make the call. And, I tend to err on the side of conservatism on this point. At some point, I need to be able to say... *This is unequivicably a *insert morph here* because *insert identifying traits here*... And no, not for monetary gain in case anyone is wondering, but to know what I am working with. Isolating traits and characteristics is what makes this interesting to me. I'm sure others have other drivers that make it interesting for thme, which is OK too!

Maybe it's just a short coming on my part....

Anyhow, thanks again for the feedback!

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

my supers are only approaching a year old, so it won't be this year, but I promise to disclose all details about breeding attempts when they are old enough to make some. I have nothing to hide and firmly believe it's through open sharing that we all learn and advance our knowledge exponentially!

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

Thats kind of how I was thinking, Now I might be TOTALLY wrong, but the Harliquins where selectively bred for more abarent pattern correct? So by breeding the most abarent to each other the next generation would be possibly more abarent correct? If you where to breed an Abarent Harli to say a totally normal patterned BCi, and then the offspring again to a totally normal patterned BCi, would the pattern slowly start going back to normal? Does that happen with Jungles? If a Jungle is bred to a Normally patterned BCi, the offspring still results in an average of 50/50 right? 50% Jungles and 50% normal patterned, pretty much following the co-dom trait correct?

Can you produce an extreme abarent Harli from breeding a harli to a normal patterned BCi?
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I have bred normal looking Harlequins to unrelated animals,and produced offspring that could certainly pass for first-rate Jungles...can the Harlequin influence be "bred out"? in all honesty it has never been a goal,so I can't say I've persued that thought to its extreme end. I think you're kind of mistaken in your thought that Harlequins were simply line bred for aberrancies...many of the key breedings I focused on involved non-abberant animals from this line,that were selected because of their parentage rather that their appearence.
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

In regards to the distinct look of "super jungles" this one fact separates this bloodline from all other mutations that we are familiar with...the criteria used in distinguishing a morph,changes as new things are discovered...that being said,we don't see "possible Motley's","possible Arabesques",or even "possible amelanistics" these are examples of "monotypical mutations". I have yet to see an example from the Harlequin project that parallels a "super jungle",but conversely, I've yet to see anything from the jungle bloodline that parallels the "patternless"...viva la difference!
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

Thank you for the feedback. Your point about the patternless is very interesting, and really at the heart of the discussion. I agree that the patternless show particular promise as a "morph". The fact that several were produced and the pattern (or lack of) seemed very consistant between the individuals hints of something genetic. Now comes the task of isolating exactly what that something is. Is it inherent in all Harlis? Was there something genetic about the particular indivduals used that was in addition to, or even in spite of, the "normal Harli" genetic make-up? There's so much work to be done in understanding what makes up a Harli or patternless that it is confusing to some why we would want to add more radical genes to the mix, making it even harder to understand what a Harli is. I am not rejecting anyone's right to breed their own animals anyway they please. Its our bought and paid for right to do so. I am only trying to explain why it would not be something I'd probably do because I would be more interested in trying to understand what makes a Harli (or patternless). But, in the end, it's a personal choice and we are all entitled to make them.

Btw, best luck to those of you working with the patternless. I am as interested as anyone to see how that develops.

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

For me...no one would've ever thought that combining the "Sharp albino" with Sharon Moore's unusual "Caramel" boas would've led to something as glorious as the Paradigm...some of us take the highway,and others choose the scenic side-roads? I certainly see your points,and wouldn't argue the logic...but,the "what if's" were just too compelling,I HAD to do it! *lol*

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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

"no one would've ever thought that combining the "Sharp albino" with Sharon Moore's unusual "Caramel" boas would've led to something as glorious as the Paradigm"

Very True, Who would have thought it would make Paradigms...Good Example...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

LOL...thanks, and I certainly understand yours, too. I guess we have different motivation, and the desired outcome is what causes us to choose our differnet paths. There are no right or wrong answers. If we were all working on the same projects in the same fashion, it'd just be a race of sorts. This way, we get to do more as a group and learn from each other, not try to do it all by ourselves!

Best of luck!

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

I also understood your position perfectly. Further, I don't see anything to apologize for, from either perspective. It's a difference of opinion, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's what makes the world go 'round. If we all agreed on everything, it'd sure be a boring place to visit. Disagreement and open dialog directly promote exchange of ideas and advancement in understanding. I hope you (or anyone else) don't censor your ideas (other than to keep them civil and non-insulting, which I believe that you did) in the future when you have opposing viewpoints. Thank you for sharing your opinions!
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uncommonboa.com

Dave, I think you've produced some really cool boas and I respect you as a boa enthusiast. no need to apologize but at the same time, I'll apologize if I seemed to overly defensive.

I probably agree with a lot of your thoughts about breeding from the point of view of trying to capture as much verifiable information as possible from breeding - but I just don't have the boas I would need to do as you are suggesting. I own quite a few possible jungles and I even have 6 holdbacks from a litter I had in 2007 that I had to label as "possible" harlequins due to having two different males involved with the breeding. I also have Abys that I hope to breed - and breed into both my harlequins and jungles. I'm going to be stuck with quite a few litters involving Abys, Harlequins, possible harlequins, possible jungles - and the few definite jungles that I own. Also - I like hypos and to be completely honest I'm suprised that breeding hypos to jungles doesn't cause a rucus sometimes - because the hypo trait really seems to diminish the Jungle appearance at times as well- and we've all seen the random crazy aberrant hypos and superhypos that could just about pass for jungles themselves...

anyway, my decisions about breeding are really based on just hooking up boas that I like and hoping to get something really cool. if my breedings don't add a whole lot to the understanding about some of these morphs and traits - I'm OK with that I guess.

one other question....
I've been looking at this male quite a bit and almost wondering if it is not a hypo?? I just can't say that I've seen a hypo with such a full pattern before.
any thoughts?

Thanks,
Patrick

it was intended to be in response to Morgans Boas...

pick out the jungle from the pics I posted? It should be fairly easy.

Please don't be sorry for you opinions...
I understand your point. But my point is that who cares.
Lets all make more Beautiful boas. If we aren't about the money
then buy it if you like it. Belive me I send way more than I make.

About the box thing it wasn't directed at you.
I have just heard so many people say that they wouldn't bread a harlequin to a jungle.

Thats fine if they don't want to, then don't. But to me it would only be because they couldn't sell the offspring as this or that and make x amount of money.

hey man no worries. be good and make lots of beautiful boas this year. Good luck.
later B
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People will say what they want to say, believe what they want to believe. No matter what proof you have to the contrary.

Brendan
BCI by Design

But pic #2 could easily pass as one . Throwing Hypos into the mix will certainly be harder to differenciate.

Whoops, I said that I was done already.
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Snake room janitor

I wasn't bothered by your comments at all and took it as a nice little exchange of ideas and opinions.

>>I've seen many Harli's and thought to myself, if someone told me this was a Jungle, I'd believe it

Yup, me too! But for me, that makes it more interesting to do the breeding. I agree with you that the babies produced from a harlixjungle litter may be hard to differentiate the exact genetics responsible and there are always problems with unscrupulous breeders/resellers/people that will miss-label something in an effort to make some $ or out of sheer ignorance.

>>-- AbsolutelyApril's quote >> I also think the abyxharli, etc, breedings would yeild some interesting results.
>>
>>They have 2 or 3 times , and they look sweet.

pics?

Have a great day!
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

why not maybe use a super jungle to the harly and see what the results come out like and maybe have a standard for jungle harlys ?

Two problems with that idea. One is that both morphs are so varied in there physical apperances that it would still be almost impossible to use those animals as a sort of gague to measure other Jungle Harleys by. Problem two is that someone would actually have to get a Super Jungle to breed to accomplish that lol

Up to this point there has been much speculation if a Super Jungle can reproduce. I don't know how much of this speculation has been based on facts, but no one has shown a litter from one yet (that I know of), and there has been plenty of years now to have done it by now. The only exception is the original one of Pete's believed to be a Super Jungle.
I do know of a successful breeding this year using a Super Jungle male , so I guess we're waiting to see it'll have viable young. Here's hoping !!!!
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Snake room janitor

That's great! I hadn't heard of an attempt, although like everyone else, I assumed folks were working on it. Please let us know how it works out REGARDLESS of the outcome! LOL

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

I don't know how to create a link, but you can copy/paste the following address ---

http://www.basicallyboas.com/cgi-bin/blog?sdate_exact=07/20/2008
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Snake room janitor

I agreed to disagree. LOL I completely understand you point and beyond creating stunning boas it would probably be no difference in value since Jungles haaven't held their value at all. If any are produced they should just be labeled as what they are and beyond that the purchaser is responsible. I personally don't buy an animal from anyone second hand without contacting the actual producer and verifying if it is being advertised correctly. Then again if I want the animal I want it and it really isn't going to matter too much WHAT it is. I too welcome the open debate. Please don't ever cease to voice your opinions.
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Ty Hege
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

(But then again, is a long convoluted thread)

Since the babies are hard to identify as Jungle, Harli or both, won't this "problem" also be in subsequent generatons? Maybe not as bad as gen 1 if bred to non harli stock.

And I always though possible recessive traits were a pita! At least with them you only need one gen (usually) to prove yes or no.

A little eye candy, some Hypo Cyclones....

Zeus

Mariah

Romeo

And Juliet

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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

beautiful animal
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www.chevyboas.com

This is all so hard to follow. It will take me a good bit of time and mental effort to comprehend everyone's point. A worthy endeavor, I'm sure, since so many opinions here. Something I am very interested in.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer