Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What a bummer. My nice mustard blonde came out of hibernation this weekend mostly because it has been too cold where I live. I checked him out prior to setting him back up in his sweater box only to come back and find him 4 hours later dead w/ mouth open. Really strange. Anyone have that happen to them? I didn't see any signs of RI.

Oh well now I'm off on a search for a replacement male. Good thing I got a pair out of him before he kicked the bucket. He had great coloration and a wonderful feeding response. His two offspring have the same qualities.

Cheers,
Russ

Russ, How cold and how long did you brumate?
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Regards, Bill McGighan

2.5 months in temps that were 50-60 degrees. The female came out without any issue as did all my other snakes.

Do you measure humidity during brumation?
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Regards, Bill McGighan

No I don't/didn't but I see where you are going. We did have a lot of rain here this year so far and even in November/December. I don't keep water in my boxes at all during hibernation. I would have to say the humidity was probalby higher than transpecos prefer even without a water bowl in the box. Still it's strange that it affected one but not all.
Russ

Actually I was headed the other way…
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This is only anecdotal (that’s a word that means prepare yourself…. There’s generally a boring, pointless, old guy story to follow!)… Take it for what its worth.
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All my animals, temperate climate colubrids, are brumated in their cages in a detached shed. I control the heat in the shed with two Ranco controllers that I wired in series to prevent a single failure causing a temp run away. It’s an oil filled heater.
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Several years ago, I decided to brumate at 55F instead of the 59F previously.
The first year, it was a mild winter (outside temps averaging around 50F).
Fresh air on a timer blows into the shed about 5 minutes every hour, which means on rainy days, the air coming in is very humid. With a control deadband of 1 degree, all the environmental dynamics cause a temp swing that was from 54 – 57 F.
The relevance of all this is that the heater cycled at a mild rate and shed humidity hovered around 49%.
Checking general conditions about once a week in winter, in previous years I observed allot of cage activity even in winter at 59F, but dropping to 55F, the activity dropped to about ¼ of the previous years.
Result: all animals were well and mature pairs bred.
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The next year I repeated the 55F set point, but the winter was much harder. Outside temps often had lows in the teens and highs in the 30sF. The relevance is that the heater was on most of the time and worked allot more than the previous year.
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Subsequently, room humidity dropped to below 30%, but lower temps made activity like crawling to the fresh water bowl less frequent.
Result: 1 rat snake died much like you described. 2 showed serious signs of dehydration and took about two months to regain full functionality. Other cage mates seemed OK.
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Since then (about 3 years), I keep the temp setpoint at 60F for brumation. I don’t let humidity drop below 40%. The animals are more active in winter, crawling around the cage periodically and accessing the water bowls freely.
Result: all animals from far northern Fox to far subtropical Deckert’s were well and mature pairs bred.

None of this proves anything, but I can easily imagine a scenario where temps drop low enough to suppress some collection animals from accessing water and when this is combined with very low humidity conditions, causes the animals to dehydrate during a period when conventional thought is that they are shut down and inactive.

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Regards, Bill McGighan

Hi russ Im sorry about your lost. I had the same thing happen to me two years ago. I put all my breeder's in my storage room, I had all the males on the bottom and the females on top. everything was fine until,one week we had some very bad freezing temps hear in New York City. when I stopped by to check on them I almost died on the spot. all of my female subocs had there mouths gaped wide open I just knew they were going to die. the males were fine. you should've seen me putting about 20 sweater boxes in the back seat of a cab. the cab driver was scarred as hell i told him to get me home as fast as you can i will pay for your speeding tickets. I ended up losing a female bairds, and a female nelsoni. with in 6 to 12 hours they all appeared to be fine and there has never been any signs of RI. peace, Antoine.
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Antoine Burke

The more I hear of losses right out of brumation like this -- and I hear more every year -- the more I want to NOT brumate my snakes, the way the Barkers don't.

I myself lost an adult Het Albino right out of brumation two years ago.

Last year, I probably cooled the room for only about two weeks and still got 40 suboc babies out of nine clutches. A higher number of unfertilized eggs and slugs, true, but I'd rather have fewer babies than kill off my prize breeders.

Fact is, there are HUNDREDS of environmental variables that the wild reptile can adjust to and use to its advantage, by choice of microhabitat, that the captive has no access to and no control over. Temps are not optimal for dealing with anything that annoys them (e.g. too dry, too stuffy, too wet, no choices etc), and so metabolism (and death) is slow. As soon as we warm them up again, however, their metabolism revs right back up to normal and the death process moves more quickly.

It's kind of enlightening that even Mader's herp medicine book tells you to cool your snake if it has been over-exposed to pyrethrins in order to slow the process down -- still usually doesn't do much good, unless you have an emergency vet close by who will look at it.

Dusty R.
Suboc.com

..................that you would so drastically change your husbandry practices due to only one of your snakes expiring during or shortly after brumation. Every snake will die sooner or later. Brumation for captives is typically twenty five percent of a snakes annual life. The math is simple, there is a one in four chance that when a captive snake dies it will be during brumation. Believe me, I've heard many arguments pro/con to brumate/not to brumate. You seem to be putting a positive spin on the fact that you "still" got 40 hatchlings from 9 clutches. I believe most people would have said "only" got 40 from 9 clutches. Isn't it also possible a snake could die during brumation due to the fact that husbandry conditions weren't optimal during the nine months prior to brumation? Many people do not understand the husbandry requirements of subocs. Those same people may argue that because their subocs reproduce, their husbandry needs must have been properly met. Perhaps only the minimal requirements for reproduction were met, leaving much to be desired for overall health and longevity. Regards, Rusty

>> It surprises me that you would so drastically change your husbandry practices due to only one of your snakes expiring during or shortly after brumation.

I think you might be missing the point...if I had the time to do it, I would go back through all of my old e-mails, memories of conversations with other people -- in essence, show DOZENS of similar cases where a suboc (or some other colubrid) died either during or especially, RIGHT AFTER brumation. There's a noticeable, almost palpable trend.

Was my brumation change 'drastic'? No, the snakes still got less sunlight, lower temperatures, and other environmental cues to tell them it was time to stop feeding and breeding and to start the spermatogenesis and oogenesis all over again.

>>Brumation for captives is typically twenty five percent of a snakes annual life.

Not for my snakes. Maybe 1/6th, at the most. And I don't brumate juvies and subadults when I can help it.

>>The math is simple, there is a one in four chance that when a captive snake dies it will be during brumation.

I don't agree with that at all. You're forgetting one rather big detail: that temperature-altered brumation is neither necessary for the survival or longevity of captives. In fact, it is more risky, given the captive circumstances.

Snakes' physiology operates its best when they are at their Preferred Optimal Temperature Zone...some veterinarians, physiologists, and keepers have called this their "POTZ". It varies for species, races, and even individuals. When they are living within their POTZ, their bodily functions, brain, heart, lungs, circulation, metabolism, and immunity system are primed to operate at their best...i.e. deal with predators, disease defense, parasites, digestion, movement, prey acquisition, etc.

This is the trade-off for being an ectotherm. Though a cooled (e.g., sleeping at nighttime temperatures or brumating) herp can monopolize the benefits of a habitat where relatively low levels of food energy are available -- an energy-level niche where a mouse or bird of similar size and mass would not be able to live off the same amount of food and survive -- they still cannot respond to any of the aforementioned threats (predation, disease, etc.) as well as an endotherm that is always at their normal body temperature and ready to "throw-down" in the dead of a winter night, if it needs to. That is the trade-off for being a herp or ectotherm.

So to say that a snake has just as equal a chance of dieing during brumation that it does the rest of the year is like saying that a WWII veteran of the infantry had just as equal a chance of dieing during his service as he did living a normal life away from bullets and bombs in the States. Due to risk, even though that war was only perhaps one 40th or one 50th of his lifetime, when compared to the rest of his life, he had much greater chances of mortality than all of the other years working at a comfortable safe job in the States where you're protected by borders, ideal living conditions, familiarity, and what have you.

You see similar patterns when you look at habitat corridors...there's a more narrow range of places to hide, so there's more edge habitat, more predation, etc.

>>You seem to be putting a positive spin on the fact that you "still" got 40 hatchlings from 9 clutches. I believe most people would have said "only" got 40 from 9 clutches.

LOL That latter statement may be so, but for me, 40-plus more babies to care for all-of-a-sudden is a demand on my time and resources. I'm a sleep-deprived college student, and breeding snakes is my hobby. LOL So call it 'positive spin' if you want, but I'm genuinely happy that I still had a few dozen babies to enjoy and sell. And frankly, less was more for me, this past hatching season.

Cheers,

Dusty
Suboc.com

...............we all should strive to care for our snakes the best we see fit. If one feels their practice leaves something to be desired i commend them/you for trying something new or different. I care for my animals in many ways that most would consider to be non conventional and down right backwards or wrong. I can assure you those practices are not what some would refer to as old school. I know it is in vogue to approach husbandry with the "choices" method. In an ideal environment they may not need so many choices. Can/do i provide them with such conditions? maybe, maybe not, but i feel i do and i believe my results to be very successful. I don't grade my success by a high level of reproduction success alone, although without that something is definitely lacking in most cases. If you were to go back through your email history and tally the number of deaths people have reported to you, i would be curious to know the ratio of those keepers brumation/non brumation death records. I would expect that most adequately cared for snakes do not die during brumaton. At this point in this thread those deaths seem to be due to causes undisclosed or unknown. There are many natural illnesses that are incurable and if that is the case, then yes I may agree that under that circumstance the snake may be more likely to pass during brumation. However, it's impending death from that illness/condition is inevitible regardless of time of year or environmental conditions. I give you the last word in this exchange. Regards, Rusty

Rustduggler,
You do make some great points in all of your posts. I feel like I gave the snake the best possible care but over the years of working with snakes I have found two particular varieties that are challenging to me (subocs and pits). Though I have had success breeding them I have also experienced all of my post brumation losses with them as well. So as you point out maybe I'm not giving them what they need. I'll continue to tweak my micro environment in order to better meet their needs or at least try.

Russ

>>Though I have had success breeding them I have also experienced all of my post brumation losses with them as well. So as you point out maybe I'm not giving them what they need.

Russ, if you're not seeing any signs of sickness at all before brumation, but have experienced post-brumation losses, then you should logically conclude that something is going wrong during brumation. It's sooner-or-later happened to most people I've talked to who keep a sizeable collection. Of course, Rustduggler's point that maybe things weren't right going into brumation could make things worse...Every single paperback cornsnake book out there tells you to not brumate snakes that you suspect may have problems...so that's obvious and not in dispute here. Mr. Duggler also made the point that many people do not understand TPRS needs...that's not your case...you have a 291-page book that you bought about the species. That's why I included the Barkers' chapter in the book, because it offered an alternative way of 'brumating' snakes without lowering temperatures below anything that's suboptimal for normal physiology...and remarkably, this has allowed their suboc females to double-clutch -- something that rarely happens for most people who cool their subocs down. And it works. VPI has long posted on their site that their collective experience has shown that the traditional temp-lowering method of wintering snakes is dangerous and risky. As Bill M. pointed out, they have found other montane western ratsnakes with lizards in their stomachs during the winter, using microhabitats (sun-warmed boulders) to thermoregulate. And Bill, I think this ties in rather neatly with Cranston's/Merker's observation that they become ataxic during brumation if you don't leave a warm basking spot. On the same token, we have NO clue what subocs do during the winter in the wild. No such ecological studies have been published to date. We do know that subocs also prefer steep hillsides of mountains with lots of large rocks...it could be that subocs are doing things other than getting their Z's during the winter. We don't know yet.

Bottom line is, they do have many choices of temperature, humidity, aridity, soil pH, dampness, draftiness, stuffiness, dryness, darkness, slope aspect, topical shade, during the winter that we almost completely eliminate for them when we turn off their heat gradient.

If you've ever messed with anything dry and woody all day without gloves, then you've noticed how dry and cracked your hands become by the end of it...we know that subocs have their own species-specific parasite, a hardtick called Aponomma elaphensis...they're only found on subocs, and they're a species that requires dampness and darkness in order to survive and not desiccate. This tells us one thing...and we already know that subocs are always in the dark...and that the Chihuahuan Desert macrohabitat isn't damp...this must mean that their microhabitat is damp. And yet, many of us have supplied nothing more than dry wood shavings for our snakes, especially during the winter. I can't imagine the hell that is for a species that has evolved to rest on damp soil...and as soon as I started offering humidity boxes about six years ago, that's usually where I've found my subocs spending most of their time since. What I suspect is happening is that subocs are getting very stressed out from contact dehydration to their skin without finding relief...eventually this takes its toll, and they start going downhill those two-three months, effectively but slowly -- because as I've said already, metabolic processes (even bad ones) are drastically slower for ectotherms during winter. Stress is often a silent killer. Having worked as a veterinary technician at emergency vet clinics, I can tell you firsthand.

But even offering a humidity box still presents meager choices of microhabitat, because as I've said, we have no clue what they do or what they prefer -- so we have to err on the side of many choices if we want to discover their true preferences and ethological tendencies.

DR
Suboc.com

Thanks Dusty...all very good points...especially the one about the tick. Unfortunately I can only offer so many choices in a sweater box and that's how I have them setup. One day after I retire from the Navy I will set my snakes up in naturalistic and large settings that offer many choices. I'll do this moreso to be able to watch and see what they really prefer over what I've provided throughout the years. Your book is good and I enjoy readding it. I have never had success w/ subocs when I introduced prolonged mositure to their boxes so I don't. I just hand water them about every 7 to 10 days. I've got to say that since I started that practice with subocs and rosys boas I no longer get regurgitation.

Lots of good discussion and posts on this thread. Thanks to everyone who has shared their experiences.

Russ

Thanks for your service, Russ.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

I personally think it's very important to slowly drop the temps when snakes are going into brumation and slowly increase the temps when taking them out. I have talked to people over the years that do it in a matter of a couple days which I don't see how anyone would think it's a good way to do it. I've had a couple of those same people admit they loose a snake or two almost every year in the process. It might be luck but I've never lost a snake while being cooled, in brumation or while coming out of brumation. I'm not bragging or insinuating I can't loose one next week while their coming out this year but just pointing out that making the process a slower, non shocking one for the snakes has worked good for me over the years. I take about a week and a half from when I turn off their heat source until their at brumation temps and again about the same amount of time when bringing them out. I also avoid extreme lows and temp fluxuations while their in brumation. Once their heat tape is turned back on I start their feeding slowly with small meals the first couple of weeks. I also leave mine in the same cages with the same set up in the same area. The only change is I might put in a smaller water bowl during brumation as I just slowly close the heat vent to brumate and reopen the heat vent in that room when bringing them out so the room air becomes more humid since the warm air is not drying out the area. I keep water bowls in all species cages during brumation, even with trans-pecos and rosy boas although very small ones.
Russ I just wanted to say that my post is not directed towards your paticular situation but I just wanted to add what has worked for me since the discussion has gotten fairly deep.

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Randy Whittington

Thanks Randy. No problem and I enjoy reading how others are having success. You said you keep water in with your subocs all the time. Are they kept in racks? Temps?

Their in racks with large holes drilled for air movement Russ. I use 2 inch pvc end plugs for water bowls, not end caps. They have a wide hex bottom that is wider than the rest which makes them extremely hard to tip over. The inside diameter of the caps are only 2 inches.
Most of the year the subocs temps are 73-75 on the cool side and 85 on the warm side. I would prefer to brumate between 55 and 60 but it's hard to keep the room that cool when brumating where I live. The temps stay between 58 and 63 most of brumation. From turning off the heat tape to turning it back on for me is about 2.5 months.
You can see the edge of one of the PVC plugs i'm talking about in the right hand edge of this picture.

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Randy Whittington

Don't hold your breath, Randy. Most lose a snake out of brumation eventually, even with your same methods, though I'm sure you've had no negative results yet.

>>I personally think it's very important to slowly drop the temps when snakes are going into brumation and slowly increase the temps when taking them out. I have talked to people over the years that do it in a matter of a couple days which I don't see how anyone would think it's a good way to do it.

Here's why I think a more abrupt warm-up is better than a gradual one. If something unseen is wrong with a snake and it's soon enough to save the snake, then getting the temps up to their Preferred Optimal Temeperature Zone (with a gradient) is the best way for that snake to fight off infection and deal with metabolic processes at its best ability.

Some have said that this might shock the snake's system...(although no one has proven this either way), I don't entirely agree. Just because you can quickly get the ambient temp in a room from 55 - 75 F in a matter of an hour or so does not mean that substrate and solid object temps keep pace with that change. It often takes quite a while for the steel, plastic, bedding, cork bark, glass, ceramic bowls, water, etc. to catch up with the ambient temp.

Don Soderberg might be a good person to bring into this discussion...his cornsnake book says on page 65, "Some say it's necessary to raise the snake's body temperature up to the 80s F gradually, but there were many reasons I abruptly converted the brumating breeders from cold to warm in one day."

Not that Don or anyone has the final word on this, but I'd be interested to hear why he thinks so.

In our cages, they generally get forced into very limited conditions, especially during brumation. Obviously Winter imposes harsher conditions on wild snakes, but they choose where they go to deal with it, and you and I may be surprised at what they can manage to find out there in terms of humidity and temps that can be possibly different from our cages.

Snakes in my collection thrive when allowed to choose, even in Winter. That means, choose temps (even warm) and choose humidity.

This occasional loss that folks have with any snake coming out of brumation means that the snake's health was compromised, and my guess is that brumation as the textbooks say to do it just adds stress to the situation. Heat helps snakes overcome sickness. So why not provide heat and cool and let the snake decide? The sick snake will choose heat.

I've bred various snakes (not subocs) with just cool nights, still providing heat during the day in part of the cage. Fertility did not change, eggs were just fine. Probably no need at all for this prolonged 55 deg thing for many commonly-bred snakes. Herpers just get stuck in a method and forget that these animals are able to survive in a harsh world on their own without our brumation recipes and Flexwatt. Why don't we let them decide what they want instead of imposing the same exact condition on all of them?
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Mark

>>In our cages, they generally get forced into very limited conditions, especially during brumation. Obviously Winter imposes harsher conditions on wild snakes, but they choose where they go to deal with it, and you and I may be surprised at what they can manage to find out there in terms of humidity and temps that can be possibly different from our cages.
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>>Snakes in my collection thrive when allowed to choose, even in Winter. That means, choose temps (even warm) and choose humidity.
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>>This occasional loss that folks have with any snake coming out of brumation means that the snake's health was compromised, and my guess is that brumation as the textbooks say to do it just adds stress to the situation. Heat helps snakes overcome sickness. So why not provide heat and cool and let the snake decide?

Mark,

Thank you. Everything you just said is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make; thank you for clarifying it further. I too left the heat cables on this winter but cracked the windows a tad and closed the vents. After all, choices in the environment (like the A/C, heater, a warm bath, lotion on our skin, chapstick, dry and clean clothes, layered clothing, shade under a tree, a fan, a humidifier, etc.) are what keep us from getting sick, dieing, or going insane...why would snakes be any different?

The herp medical and/or physiological textbooks make it fairly plain...natural processes (digestion, death, growth, etc.) can be prolonged in suboptimal temperatures, and warmer normal temperatures, for the species in question (aka POTZ's), speed it up. Turning the heat back on just speeds up the process of an already dieing snake. It can also save a snake that isn't already a "slow" inch away from dieing.

Regards,

Dusty R.

suboc.com

Markg said:
“Snakes in my collection thrive when allowed to choose, even in winter. That means, choose temps (even warm) and choose humidity.”
This sounds like you’ve reached the mark we’re all trying to reach.

Based upon what you and Dusty have said and, since I’m really not dependent on the breeding for commercial purposes, next year I plan to bump my shed to a 63F setpoint.
My plan, at least for now, will be to move the target ambient temp up 3 F every winter till a significant difference is seen.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Rusty asked,
“Isn't it also possible a snake could die during brumation due to the fact that husbandry conditions weren't optimal during the nine months prior to brumation?”
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You’re, of course, right on this, Rusty, and I think this very interesting discussion can continue with the assumption is that the animals were in good health prior to brumation.
At least I’ve heard this story of “sudden death” on healthy emerging SUBOCs several times over the years.

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Regards, Bill McGighan

In trying to understand the dynamics of brumation of Rat Snakes, It seems some consideration must be given to their home range and habitat.
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Going from one extreme to the other.
In the east, and probably the Midwest, it could be a simple function of latitude, altitude, and brumation media.
I know for a fact that Yellow (or Orange) Rat Snakes and Corn Snakes that I’ve personally collected from south of Lake Okeechobee, need absolutely no “cooling brumation” to breed and even have a high propensity for double clutching in the wild. Their subtropical world can have several years where no significant cooling has occurred.
Some years, however, winters can be downright cold, even freezing, in south Florida and the animals still breed.
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A Black Rat Snake pair from tidewater Virginia occasionally bred with only photo cycle brumation, but significantly better success was achieved with at least the male being cooled.
In the wild for these animals, Winter temps are significantly cooler than FL but some winter thermoregulation can be seem in denning sights like hallow Oak Trees and “hurricanes” (stumps of fallen trees).

An eastern Fox pair from Ohio or Michigan (and probably a Black Rat from Massachusetts) pretty much has to have the winter sleep.

The southwest, west Texas to S Calif. seems to have different dynamics with cool winters, but many more sunny days, less dense forest cover, and large exposed boulders that can act as heat collectors.
Many of us have found wild SUBOCs crawling when ambient air temps were in the low 60s, but the animals were warm to touch; a testament to the fact that its surrounding mass temps that are more important than air temps.
Several credible field herpers have found Mountain Kings, Rosy Boas, Green Rats, Patch-nosed, etc. in the rocks with lizards in their bellies. Most of credible accounts that I’ve heard, are of animals in rock fissures or under cap rock.
Based upon this, I could see where southwestern animals might be better with warmer winter temps in captivity.
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Regards, Bill McGighan