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what is the major difference between emoryi and E. g. meahllmorum ?
Are there more variations of corn intergrades with E. g. meahllmorum than Emoryi ?
Someone teach me, please!
Thanks in advance
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****Misty****
www.sneakyserpents.com
"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"
Good way to say it; (Emory's types).
Several years ago, the Great Plains Rat, Elaphe guttata emoryi) was the only subspecies of corns (then Elaphe guttata guttata). Today, the taxa divides the two, with corns having no living ssp Pantherophis guttatus and Great Plains Rats are now two: Great Plains Rat (aka: Northern Plains Rat) Pantherophis emoryi emoryi and Southern Plains Rat Pantherophis emoryi meahllmorum. The Intermontaine race of Plains Rats is still stubbornly a member of the P.e.e. ssp, even though many of us in the hobby distinguish them for their physiological and geographic distinctions.
Regarding hybrid morph naming (creamsicle, root beer, cinnamon), these are names assigned by hobbyists, of course. Usually, such name assignment is reserved for the originator of a morph, but in our hobby, hybrids are pretty much the red-headed stepchildren, so naming is unofficial and often haphazard. Root beer corns (the non-albino byproducts of the hybrid cross CORN x EMORY’S RAT) were formerly nameless, except for the name CHOCOLATE that thankfully did not stick. Personally, I’m opposed to names that evoke a mental expectation. In other words, mutts like the byproducts of hybrids (whose collective phenotype has uber-variety) should have names like ZENYTH. No mental expectation is formed from reading that name. People hearing the likes of CINNAMON and ROOT BEER, are often disappointed upon seeing that most of them have no resemblance to their respective namesakes. I guess one could say that since they are not pure corns, this is not rocket science, and therefore names do not need to ideally represent mutts. We’re not dealing with endangered species here, but I do soberly warn folks that hybridization of any snake is dangerous business. In just two generations, it’s possible to erase most of the alien foot prints leading back to the crime :0grin. What remains is just enough atypicality to make the products novelly marketable. In our hobby, the danger is infusing those into heretofore pure cornsnake lines, thereby permanently polluting their genome. Once those genes are introduced, they’re always there. Eventually, they can be diluted to nearly invisible levels, but they cannot be expunged. Well, perhaps in tomorrow’s genetic technology, but I doubt people are going to pony up the big bucks to make that happen. The mutts are always endearing to us, but not taken seriously, eh?
South Mountain Reptiles
I know you and I have discussed this before to one degree or another, but where in the spectrum of "corn-dom" do you see the Kisatchie corns fitting? Are they a natural intergrade/hybrid as so many have speculated, or do they deserve the taxonomic distinction they've been allotted?
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742
Darin, we used to say the range of corns overlapped that of Emory's (or vice-versa), making all those tweener-looking animals (not quite Emory's and not quite corn). Texas officially declared them Texas cornsnakes awhile back, but scientists have since done many field studies and tests (including DNA) to support their conclusion that those tweeners, which anyone could see were intergrades/hybrids, are actually taxonomically distinct. Back then, they elected not to classify them as a third ssp of corns, but an entirely new species, now Pantherophis slowinskii. As in all taxonomic research, the testing never stops. Today, the so-called Kisatchie corns are officially P.slowinskii, but who knows what they'll be called next year or next decade.
Okay, we already knew all that, but I was prepping ya for my response. I believe that if we went back in a time machine one or two million years ago, we would not even find corns in Florida. My time line may be messed up, but given all this planet's climate changes during that time, it makes sense that as flora changed from catastrophes and climate shifts (including ice ages), animals whose survival depends on camouflage, would surely also change. Therefore the marvel of genetics does its job through natural selection to derive at the best animal physiology for the neighborhood. In other words, I don’t know what two species it would have been, but corns may well be the product of the convergence of two other snake species whose physiologies were not successful enough to co-exist or nudge out the corns. It is my belief that what we're seeing with the overlapping of corns and Emory's is evidence of evolution changing species to be more efficient than the two donor species. If this natural genetic experiment would have created animals that were not successful enough to contribute to gene pools, there would be no Kisatchies. We can't imagine Kisatchies being successful enough to replace both those cousin species, so I’m not proposing a hostile genetic takeover, but their range is so large now, they’re clearly here to stay. Are they naturally hybridizing with Emory’s and corns? I don’t know. Therefore, I yield to the scientific minds that made this decision. To more pointedly A your Q, I’m content with their taxonomic classification, given that I’m too unlucky to win the lottery and too old and lazy to go to school to try to disprove their findings. Yes, I believe Kisatchies are the result of natural hybridization, but once their genome changed sufficiently, they earned their own place in taxonomy. In the modern snake world, I believe the significance of this taxonomic assignment is phenomenal. That is, (trusting that their DNA truly IS distinct) I’m flattered to see a new rat snake species in the U.S. in my lifetime.
South Mountain Reptiles
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742
Don I brought this up a while back. I was watching some nature show about lonesome Henry a tort on the Gal.. islands.
He's the last of his kind sp, but with 3 other torts. For many years everything was tried to cross him with no success. Well they left them alone and guess what EGGS!
I bring up this story as they stated on TV, that within 4 generations they would have the original sp of Henry by breeding back. Obviously the people in charge are not a hobbyist like me. I'll presume PhDs. Now 4 generations seems fast to me, but as I agree with you once you cross, some genes will always be there. But at what point do we say they are non effective.
I would have to guess that in the last 200 years. a few sexually careless corns mated to some everglades and yellow rats etc. As they say any port in a storm.
I'm not promoting nor slamming anyone's projects. I was just amazed when I heard "4 generations" to get back to the sp of the male tort to continue his sp on earth.
Has anyone bred a creamcicle back to normal corns for a few generations? Just to compare those babies to normals?
Bottom line I'm happy Henry got some!
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom
Don I brought this up a while back. I was watching some nature show about lonesome Henry a tort on the Gal.. islands.
He's the last of his kind sp, but with 3 other torts. For many years everything was tried to cross him with no success. Well they left them alone and guess what EGGS!
I bring up this story as they stated on TV, that within 4 generations they would have the original sp of Henry by breeding back. Obviously the people in charge are not a hobbyist like me. I'll presume PhDs. Now 4 generations seems fast to me, but as I agree with you once you cross, some genes will always be there. But at what point do we say they are non effective.
I'm certainly no expert, but I can share my personal observations with you. If the alien species is very close to corns, phenotypic traces can disappear in just one or two generations, but not in all of the babies, AND throw-backs will appear now and then, down the line. Even if the F1s are bazaar-looking (un-cornlike), it only takes a couple of generations to make outward signs of the cross vanish IF THAT IS YOUR GOAL. Herein lies the problem. People like a feature that is not found in corns, so they borrow it by breeding (let's say) a king snake to their corn. F1s are variable and bazaar (actually beautiful). They choose two of the best ones to pair to each other, and one/some back to the parents. Since most people do not like the snake-eating and human-biting trait of the king, they usually breed back to corns. In just one more generation, it's possible to have snakes that are virtually identical to corns, except for the yellow they borrowed from the king snake family tree. Actually, it's not easy to get rid of the yellow, but through diligent selective breeding, it can be done. For instance, reverse Okeetee examples of such crosses have beautiful overall yellow coloration. SOOO, you can make the hybrid look go away quickly, or you can drag it out, if the trait you desired is popular. You simply breed in favor of the look, instead of against it. As you can see, in a hobby where people want what is different, the fastest way to make corns that are really different is to outbreed them to another species.
Regarding your questions about dilution. If you pour a cup of milk into your swimming pool, it instantly disappears. It's there, but you can't see it. Therefore, even if the physical features of the cross disappear in subsequent generations, it's in the genome, and I know this is your question. Are any corns pure? Probably not, but after dozens or hundreds of generations, visual traces (and even throw-backs) eventually fizzle out. All modern dogs can be traced back to three female wolves (proven in DNA testing). So, all dogs have a drop or two of wolf blood in them, but AKC recognizes their genetic purity nonetheless.
I would have to guess that in the last 200 years. a few sexually careless corns mated to some everglades and yellow rats etc. As they say any port in a storm.
I'm not promoting nor slamming anyone's projects. I was just amazed when I heard "4 generations" to get back to the sp of the male tort to continue his sp on earth.
I don't know how long, and I'm reasonably sure it's different from one species to another. Depends on how closely related the two species are. We know the footprints of the alien genes never leave the genome, but can diluted to the point of not being visually obvious.
Has anyone bred a creamcicle back to normal corns for a few generations? Just to compare those babies to normals?
Sure. Through selective breeding, you can wash out the yellow in two to five generations.
South Mountain Reptiles
Interesting and well DUH lol on my part. I totally forgot the variation in a clutch and then selective breeding.
And on the topic of that trace gene, I remember when i was breeeding 1000's of rats as a kid, I had cages of many generations bred of white rats and once in a while I'd get an agouti wild colored one.
Rats were fun and the generation is so fast. I bred caps in a year or so about 1974. I also have a true calico and a bright orange female both neither bred out. With 300-400 cages I had lots of goofy projects.
Now back to Henry. I wonder what they do with the clutch. Would they save the torts with the closest DNA and put down the others not to promote that strain?
Well, thanks for teh input as alwasy always useful.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom
Bad news about Henry, the eggs aren't fertilized. So he's still the last of his subspecies. 
Well that sucks.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom
if needed they can take cells from him and Make him again,....
LOL......
....if they needed to
we lose how many species a day in this sad world???.......many many......
poor tort.....he'll try again......
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...JY
.
if they clone Henry who would own the DNA?
It would clearly lead to a law suit, that would be a
tort tort!
MUhahhahahhahahahahaha
I crack myself up!
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom
the country that owns the Galopogos Islands can own Henry and the DNA from him>???
.......
(tort .....OK..I laugh at it.....)LOL
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.
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.....................................
...JY
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It's a mathematical impossibility for the resulting offspring of a hybridization event to ever be "pure", no matter how many generations pass. The media could have inadvertently (or on purpose) altered the biologists words in the interview.
-Cole
Media stink. And i honestly cant recall if it was teh guy actually doing the work talking,, or a person from teh animal planet or where ever.
I still hope Henry gets lucky again.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom
Hey Don, thanks for the indepth response
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****Misty****
www.sneakyserpents.com
"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"
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