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Where do you guys draw the line when shipping in cold weather? What would you consider a safe temperature to ship in?

25 degrees and above at the latest time of day possible. I shipped out 8 Boas yesterday and our high was about 26 degrees. I make my own boxes that are lined with 1 1/2" Polystyrene. Not those little pieces of 1/2 " or 3/4" Styrofoam that are better than nothing I suppose, but not by much. You could stand on my boxes. I never use heat packs. Heat packs kill. Getting cool once does not.
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I did a little test on my front porch when it was 16 F outside. I took a very nice pro pak styro box (VPI uses these) and put 2 heat paks in the box. I had a thermostat probe in the middle of the box as well. Sealed it all up nice and tight inside my house and put it on the porch for 10 hrs. The temp of the inside got as low as 40 f. I then did the same test and just let the box sit in my house all day (house temp 70 F). The internal temp in the box never went over 80 f. I think in cold weather it is almost impossible to kill the animal with heat. I agree if the anumal is delivered as planned overnight in a well insulated box, no harm will come to the animal. What iif the animal becomes lost (hopefully never) and the temps drop to below 25 f ? A 40hr heat pack could save you $$$ in refunds to your customer. My opinion is you dont need a heat source in 40F and up. Either way I guess Im too paranoid. The box that I used , would be big enough for an adult boa to be shipped.

I guess not everyone knows this but, almost all the time, the weather here in Minnesota is colder than anywhere in the continental United States. I assumed that most people would check the weather both from the point of shipping and the point of arrival for appropriate temperatures. I always do. In fact, I will not ship to an address where the recipient does not agree to be waiting for them to deliver the box. I tell them FedEx won’t knock. They won’t beep their horn. You must check very frequently to collect the package as quickly as possible the morning of delivery. A delivery to a business is different as they go in doors for those deliveries. In fact, shipping in the summer is far more dangerous than winter. Even a good Styrofoam box on a 110 degree concrete sidewalk or step will kill the critter inside much more quickly than being set in a snow bank on a 20 degree day.

The only times I have had a DOA was when using a heat pack, in the winter time, from Minnesota when it was not below 30 degrees. Each time they showed signs of heat stress. When the FedEx guy picks up that box, it goes into the back of the unheated truck. On a 30 degree day it's likely in the 40's in the back of that truck. Then it's to the terminal. Once at the terminal where does it go precisely? Up here in the frozen wasteland, warehouses use these huge overhead blasting forced air furnaces. I suspect when I have lost animals, they died in close proximity to one of those heaters. The heat from the heater plus the heat pack can prove too much for the little guys. I have never had an animal die from the cold in shipping. I have had two people get snakes they thought were frozen, that miraculously came back to life.

Derek "The Big Boss Man" Yagi was one of those people around 8 or 10 years ago. "Bad news Dr. Ronne" Derek called to say. What? I asked. The Boa is frozen. Really? Frozen or just really really cold? I asked. Well, it's not frozen I guess. Derek admitted. I told Derek to take the little fella out, set it on a table and watch it for a few minutes. This he did while I was on the phone. "Oh!" Derek exclaimed. "His tongue is coming out really really slowly". This was a complete surprise to Derek since the snake was actually dead, or so it seemed. Anyhow, in half an hour the snake was alive, well and acting like nothing had happened. No problems with the animal subsequently either.

Coincidentally Derek "The Big Boss Man" Yagi, sent me a dead Bolivian Boa yesterday morning. He looked dead in the bag. The box inside temped at 44 degrees. I check it as soon as it came in. No wonder he was feeling so cool. I took him out of the bag and placed him, though he was very stiff and really cold to the touch, into a rack drawer. Then the ungrateful four foot reduced pattern Bolivian swung his head around toward my hand in slow motion, mouth open in a pathetic attempt to bite me. His teeth scraped along the fattest part of my palm and I bust out laughing at him. It was like I was watching an instant replay in super slow motion. Really funny. Today he is perfectly fine. I don’t recommend getting your animals really cold for a long time, but one incident as I have described will not cause any lasting issues at all.

So, I don't use heat packs. I quit using them in 1994 and thousands of Boa shipments later, I have yet to loose another Boa in shipping.

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I concede to the heat pack death. It was a rare situation and combination of events. I argue that if the same rare situation were to occur. (Maybe the ice cold baby boas spend an additional 10 to 12 hrs in the cold because the were lost or whatever. I would have to believe the Lazarus boas probably wouldnt have risen from the dead. I would think the heat packs may have been able to keep a cold boa alive for several hrs stuck on a runway, perhaps because of a terrorist threat. I guess the risk in your mind is minimal, just as the risk is minimal in my mind. I guess

That is what is killing the boas sealed up tightly with two heat packs.

Take care,

Kevin

I am using Jeff's box to ship a GTP to MD next week (I'm recycling ) where the temps are mid to high 10's. I received the box with a adult male Peruvian I bought with no heat pad and no additional padding...as he described...last year around this same time. While I was surprised with the simple packing, the snake was fine and is still doing fine.

Waste not want not.

You can arrange to have the package held for pick up to eliminate the animal being subjected to the eliments as well.

There is nothing more fun than opening your door and seeing a overnight box on your porch though.....I have two shipments coming next week
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2.2 Chondros (Aru / Sorong / Biak / Mix)
1.1 Eastern Indigo
1.1 Retic (Calico x Dwarf / Calico)
3.6 BCC/BCI (Peruvian / Albino / Albino Het / Guyana / Albino Het Snow / Anry Het Snow)
2.2 Crested Gecko
1.0 Western Hognose
1.1 Rubber Boa
1.1 Western Coachwhip
1.2 Black Racer
2.2 Ball Python (Spider / Pastel / 1.1 Het Pied)
1.3 Homo Sapiens
1.0 Pit Bull
0.1 Bull Terrier

We have shipped THOUSANDS of boxes and have ALWAYS used heatpacks. If you know how to use them they are perfect. A heat pack is DESIGNED for animal shipping. If you use HUMAN grade like for hunting and putting in your boots and what not, those will cook anything. REPTILE heat packs made for animal shipping are designed to be used for animals int he box. They raise temps about 10 degrees per pack per square foot. We use one per 12x9x6 box, 2 for 15x11x7 box(or one depending on contents) and 2-3 for standard fish boxes. I think the brand is UNI pack? You can get them from superior enterprises. They were originally for birds and fish. We use packs that are 30hr as they heat up quicker and by the time they get to a hub in central U.S. (knoxville or tennesee) they are full capacity and about to dwindle. Once they leave hub they lose potency and get to destination where temps might be higher then hubs at a much less temp in box. I have seen and heard of hundreds of chilled shipments regarding no heatpacks. As well as overkill on heatpacks toasting stuff. 10 out of 10 times its becuase someone doesnt know how to use heatpacks correctly or use hunting ones from walgreens or walmart. Think of it this way, if one pack raises temps 10 degrees and its 50f, someone puts 4-5 packs(like Ive seen done before) and you got 90-100f in that box for a few hours. Toast!

Also we put only two holes per box if going to any area over 50 and ZERO holes if going to below 50.
Never had a doa boa or python.

Personally weve never had a problem with heatpacks nor problems with animals being toasted. At the same time we have never had anyone complain or call that there animals werent moving or so cold they couldnt.

If it works for certain people to ship a certain way, great. No need to change it. But personally, I would much rather recieve a snake that was room temp then so cold i was worried it was dead.

More than one way to skin a cat!

The heat packs I used were the type that hunters used and they were always securely attached to the end opposite the location of the animal. There were no animal heat packs back in the old days. I have never used the other ones sold by superior. I think I will order some and do some testing with them.

Still, the way I have done it has worked out fine, although it does make for a very nervous recipient sometimes. That would be nice to change.

See. Sometimes you can teach an old dog new tricks.
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I shipped some boas back in '03 using superior enterprise boxes, foam and heat packs all to colder northeast area states, one boa had died when it got to the location it was cold because the heat pack had not worked. Other than that one time, never had an issue using heat packs... I wrap the heat pack in newspaper, attach to the top inside of the foam, snake goes in a deli cup with crumpled newspaper. Deli cup goes on the bottom and wadded newspaper between the cup and the top of the box(heat pack).

Now that I work for a packaging company I'm going to look into getting some boxes with a thicker foam insulation, Thanks for that idea Jeff! We get these types of boxes/foam sets from Cold Ice.
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

to ship. Although a little more expexsive I always use Delta Dash same day. Drop off in the morning and it's there by mid to late afternoon most of the time. If your not Delta verified and using regular shipping boxes with regular sized lining i'd say don't go under 40 cause you never know with the overnite stuff and bad weather. I would definitely find out how the weather's gonna be where ever your shipping to and make sure it's gonna be a clear day. If they're well packed with care you should have no problems.

Just to add another note, I always check the receiving ends temps, and the major hub that the carrier ships through, when shipping across country most overnight shipments go through a major hub, like the UPS hub is in Louisville, Kentucky. And teh Fed-Ex Hub is in Memphis Tennessee I believe, I always check those temps too, just incase there is bad weather there, cause that will cause a delay if the weather is bad at the main hub. So I make sure my temps, the recieving temps and the hub temps are good.

Often times people will hold animals till the weather clears, this time of year its a common thing to wait. Its not worth the risk sometimes...ya know.

I would rather hold off shipping for someone than take a chance of it not making the trip.

I have never shipped Delta, but I have received via Delta, and it is pretty cool to get the shipment the same day...but you have to drive to the nearest major Airport...which is the only bummer part, But its worth it.

If you have a good insulated box, and pack correctly there should be no problem, but keep in contact with the reciever and have them give you updates on temps and weather conditions.
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

someone become certified to ship Delta Dash and what are the average prices to ship Delta?

You don't, at least not anymore. Delta used to pay their employees to do the "inspections". They stopped doing that and did hire a sub-contractor to do the inspections, however none of the Florida hubs has heard anything furthur. This was around 2004 I believe?
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South Central Herpetological

process you need to go through for security purposes. Average cost to ship these days is about 80-100 depending on if it's Delta Dash or Priority First. It's a little more thean overnite but the piece of mind you get for that extra 20 bucks is priceless! I mean come on,if you spend over a thousand on a boa,are you really gonna want to cheap out on it's safety? It's really a no brainer. Also,that 80-100 covers up to 50 pounds.

I believe you can now get certified again, I started the process but had to stop before paying the $50 application fee because they told me you have to be a 'business'. I would have ended up paying the $50 and being told I can't get certified. :/

I've also shipped with Northwest Air Cargo (this was back in 04-05) and had good experiences with them. You don't have to be certified.

-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

I've spoke to the person who managed the "Certification Program" for the state, and Delta employees are still in the dark as to what is going on with the program. You can pay the fee to file the paperwork but nothing ever comes of it. I've been trying since 2001, but I guess they don't want my business. I can ship four legged reptiles untill I turn blue, but not snakes.
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South Central Herpetological

I've been shipping snakes for about 15 years. I have shipped all types of snakes and I have tried all kinds of different packaging/heating methods. To this day I email the person after they have received the snake and ask them if the snake was warm, was the package secure or was there anything they would have done differently to the package. I currently use propack boxes with 40 hour heat packs in the winter. The smaller boxes are about $15.00 each but they are well worth it. They are the one piece cooler boxes and in my opinion, have minimal air exchange(or heat loss) compared to superior boxes or homemade boxes. Best of luck. Mike Panichi
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honesty is my only policy

Sometimes I just can't help myself. That's a good part of what's up with my "signature".

My cold weather shipping/packaging routine is very involved:
I start with an over-sized container, with Heat Packs attached within a false bottom (sub-base) and a false top (Attic), both at one [same] end. Think of it as additionally heated and insulated walls. The purpose is to to keep the cold out, not heat the animal. Box seams are NOT fully taped and with 2 very small holes/slits on each side of the carton/container. I do want some limited air-flow. Like Jeff said, short term cold isn't going to hurt them any more than lack of oxygen or excessive heat will. Heat Packs do consume Oxygen. The box is labeled as - "LIVE Harmless Reptiles, RUSH, Avoid Extreme HEAT or COLD".

I use the largest bag possible - to cover the entire inner contents area, if I can. Shredded newspaper, wadded newspaper, paper towels - all lightly moistened with distilled water using an atomizing sprayer, inside the bag. A pouch of Zeolite and Activated Carbon is included to mitigate odors or harmful gasses should they occur. Both ends of bag secured with tie wraps. Snake bags most commonly fail at the bottom corners.

Using the largest bag possible, stuffed with excelsior material and wadding for insulation is for the snake to be better able to move to its most optimum situation within the bag/entire container, rather than being trapped against a heat pack or in the coldest location within the shipping carton. In other words, the bag is in contact with the box inner walls, instead of the newspaper stuffing being in between the bag and the inside walls. Much more functional that way. A paradigm shift. Thinking outside the box. No pun intended. Newspaper inside the bag is for better absorbency should bodily fluids be released, as well. It also allows the snake something to grip for psychological security. Snugness and contact security are important. Why stress them more than necessary?
The moistening of bag contents is to to prevent dehydration. A well hydrated snake can better tolerate high and low temperature extremes without permanent damage. I also soak snakes before shipment for that reason and to encourage defecation prior to shipping, rather than during shipping.

A little more expensive with larger bag and larger box, but It's out of my control once it leaves my hands and I'd prefer to have as many safety redundancies as possible to avoid conflict. I prefer safety over-kill to snake for-real-kill.

See what I mean - all wordy, complicated, and anal.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer