Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is the situation:
My nile who is now about 7 inches (still a baby) loves his water, as expected. he has a huge container with water to swim in. He is in there so much (and the water was chilly) so i decided to move his heat lights over the top of it. When I did this at first, I temp gunned the hot spot, which is right on a rock sitting in the water, about 10 inches away from the bulb. The reading kept saying 90 degrees... Too low, right... Mind you, there is a 100 watt zoomed bulb in an 8 inch fixture, so it is a really focused hot spot, since he is so small. So i kept checking, thinking it would get more than 90 but it didn't. So last night I moved a piece of log on top of the rock, bringing the surface area even closer to the bulb in hopes of raising the temps, and it is reading 236 DEGREES! What the hell. It is only probably HALF AN INCH closer to the light, and it went from 90 to 236??? am i getting some kind of a false reading? I'll post a pic too for proof of this nonsense.

Should I just stick with the rock? I do not want to leave it at 236 degrees...

It was only 212 this time cause I took the log out a little bit ago so it did not warm up all the way.

Make sure your Emissivity is set to 95E on that unit. For the newer PE-1s, the E setting is defaulted to 95E and non adjustable.

If your E setting is off, being a calibration of sorts, your reading will be off.

But over 200F is not unheard of. I can pull 160F using a 50 watt Halogen bulb. You have a 150 watt bulb.

The lower rock is in the cooler water. The water pulls heat directly from the rock. The top piece is not in the water, so it can soak up all of the heat directly and not lose it through an excellent temp conductor like water.

I would say you are learning a lesson about hotspots, bulbs, wattages, and how temps work. That is great. Now apply it to your setup and improve it.

(Get a much more affordable Halogen bulb, at a much lower wattage, check out the long life Halogens at our site. Your setup will get even easier and cheaper : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

These are all 45 watt standard halogen flood bulbs.




It doesnt take much wattage to get a good temp, air and surface.

Wow I guess halogen is the way to go then... Perhaps I should invest in those shortly...

Should I get a stronger bulb, such as that and move the wood from my enclosure do you think?

The 100 watt zoomed was getting up to 90 on the rock, needs to be hotter than that, but then again i don't want it to be 236 degrees either like when I have the wood there.

after the issues discussed in my thread, I raised my platform about 4" closer to the heat lights; I use a bank of three 50 watt halogens for heat, and the platform reads 160-170. So yeah Bulbs make things hot. Use the temp gun to measure the surface of the bulb if you want

Also you did raise the basking area more than half an inch, it looks closer to 2-3". A couple inches makes huge differences in surface temps. Heck 200 isn't all that bad either. If your monitor uses it I'd allow those temps. The pair of prasinus I work with are at 205f and they access that.

On another note if your nile is constantly in the water I would assess 2 things. humidity, or rather make sure you don't have excess ventilation, and make sure that you are providing useable hides throughout the cage that have their own temp gradients. I know they "like" water but baby niles are known to use the water bowl as a hide in the absence of suitable hides.

Good Luck,

Nate

Forgot to add that my 205f temps are achieved with 45w floods. Halogens are nice just be careful which ones you use. I'm sure the ones Robin offers will get the job done.

Nate

Cool Thanks. He's got plenty-o-hides, a couple of weeks ago i even added some additional ones because i thought that might be the case, but he is still always in his water, heck he even sleeps in his water! he is still very skiddish so i'll go down there and have to peek over the top of the enclosure so he doesn't spot me and run and hide and he will just be swimming around in his damn water! sometimes i think he is part fish.

I think I remember seeing a picture of your cage a while back on the forum. Thought I saw an open top. You may be losing more water from that then you think and that may be why he is in the water. I just think that a lizard that is in the water so much that he is not thermoregulating properly is more concerned with safety and or conserving moisture than with enjoying a swim.

That may be part of the problem but who knows, regardless of evaporation issues it is a lot more efficient to heat an enclosed cage. I'm willing to bet you can get what you need for temps with a 45w then. That will save you some pennies on heating that can then be spent on feeding that monster LOL.

Good Luck

Nate

Thanks man!
Yeah I open the top for pics but cover it with a sheet of plexi after.

I, personally, would take the advice on this thread concerning temps with a grain of salt.

The fact that the nile spends most of it's time in the water is most likely a humidity issue rather than a 'hiding' or security issue. My bet is the humidity within the cage is low. It's conserving body water.

Shooting for temperatures nearing 200 F is asking for trouble, especially with a small, young monitor. It can achieve the core temperature it's looking for in a short amount of time with temperatures of 130-150. You would do well to watch your monitor and respond according to how it behaves. If you notice it picking it's feet up with a sort of scraping motion, you are pushing the limit. If the temperatures go any higher you are very likely to wind up with a nile with some nasty burns.

HINT: Low humidity coupled with high heat can easily result in dehydration.

According to wikipedia-"In common parlance, if something is to be taken with a grain of salt, it means that a copious measure of skepticism should be applied regarding a claim; that it should not be blindly accepted and believed without any doubt or reservation."

Why should comments made about temps be doubted in any manner?

Further I addressed the original poster of the thread and provided advice in regards to 3 of the fundamentals of monitor husbandry; Heat, Humidity, and usable hides

HEAT:
-"it is a lot more efficient to heat an enclosed cage" NATE

- "Heck 200 isn't all that bad either. If your monitor uses it I'd allow those temps." NATE

- "I'm willing to bet you can get what you need for temps with a 45w" NATE

HUMIDITY:

-"Thought I saw an open top. You may be losing more water from that then you think and that may be why he is in the water. I just think that a lizard that is in the water so much that he is not thermoregulating properly is more concerned with safety and OR CONSERVING MOISTURE THAN WITH ENJOYING A SWIM." NATE

-" On another note if your nile is constantly in the water I would assess 2 things. humidity, or rather make sure you don't have excess ventilation" NATE

HIDES:

-"I just think that a lizard that is in the water so much that he is not thermoregulating properly is more concerned with safety and or conserving moisture than with enjoying a swim." NATE

-"make sure that you are providing useable hides throughout the cage that have their own temp gradients. I know they "like" water but baby niles are known to use the water bowl as a hide in the absence of suitable hides." NATE

As you can see I made no blanket statement as simple as give it 200F basking sites. 3 very important tools were addressed. All correlate with each other. Useable hides are also an important aspect of water conservation, even in an enclosed cage. Hides serve as a place to hydro-regulate if you will. A properly designed hide should trap water vapor evaporating from the substrate providing a higher "humidity" than surrounding areas in the cage.

Before you tell people to cast doubt and skepticism on another maybe you should read the posts in their entirety.

Nate

>>According to wikipedia-"In common parlance, if something is to be taken with a grain of salt, it means that a copious measure of skepticism should be applied regarding a claim; that it should not be blindly accepted and believed without any doubt or reservation."
>>
>>Why should comments made about temps be doubted in any manner?
>>
>>Further I addressed the original poster of the thread and provided advice in regards to 3 of the fundamentals of monitor husbandry; Heat, Humidity, and usable hides
>>
>>HEAT:
>>-"it is a lot more efficient to heat an enclosed cage" NATE
>>
>>- "Heck 200 isn't all that bad either. If your monitor uses it I'd allow those temps." NATE
>>
>>- "I'm willing to bet you can get what you need for temps with a 45w" NATE
>>
>>HUMIDITY:
>>
>>-"Thought I saw an open top. You may be losing more water from that then you think and that may be why he is in the water. I just think that a lizard that is in the water so much that he is not thermoregulating properly is more concerned with safety and OR CONSERVING MOISTURE THAN WITH ENJOYING A SWIM." NATE
>>
>>
>>-" On another note if your nile is constantly in the water I would assess 2 things. humidity, or rather make sure you don't have excess ventilation" NATE
>>
>>HIDES:
>>
>>-"I just think that a lizard that is in the water so much that he is not thermoregulating properly is more concerned with safety and or conserving moisture than with enjoying a swim." NATE
>>
>>-"make sure that you are providing useable hides throughout the cage that have their own temp gradients. I know they "like" water but baby niles are known to use the water bowl as a hide in the absence of suitable hides." NATE
>>
>>As you can see I made no blanket statement as simple as give it 200F basking sites. 3 very important tools were addressed. All correlate with each other. Useable hides are also an important aspect of water conservation, even in an enclosed cage. Hides serve as a place to hydro-regulate if you will. A properly designed hide should trap water vapor evaporating from the substrate providing a higher "humidity" than surrounding areas in the cage.
>>
>>Before you tell people to cast doubt and skepticism on another maybe you should read the posts in their entirety.
>>
>>Nate

Nate, obviously, my post would not have been in reference to yours, as I agree, you did hit upon the basics. However, you failed to mention the potential dangers of using the basking temperatures mentioned in the posts previous to yours, especially for a keeper who could very possibly have much less experience than yourself. Shvar's post is a recipe for newby disaster, between the risk of burn as well as dehydration.

SidBarvin do you know the temperature in which the skin of a monitor begins to burn? Just curious cause my biggest sav has recently had some burn looking marks on her back but my highest basking temp for her is 140 and i never really see her in that spot. It could just be a scrape or something from squeezing into tight spots like between rocks in the cage.

I would like to know when the skin begins to burn though.

I will take what has been said in this thread into consideration, thanks for the good advice from the both of you I'm going to move the light and raise the humidity.

Sid Barvin I can't take notes/ observe my nile because he quickly retreats to a hiding spot any time I come near the enclosure! I am ready for him to start trusting me I wish he was ready too. Doing things on monitors terms sucks. Worth it for when he is 6.5 feet long though.
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

Rappstar, it's not necessarily so much a matter of the temperature level at which a burn will result as how you use your lights. It's the surface area in which the heat is spread out. For example, you are currently using a single bulb for a small monitor. Though the heat may be focused in a small area it's likely still a wide enough area to heat it's whole body rather than a small area of it's body. As it becomes larger, the basking area must be larger along with the surface area of heat. In other words, if you continued to use a single light as the nile grows, only a small area of the monitors body would be heated. The monitor is trying to heat it's whole body with a small beam of light so it will sit under it untill it burns. That's why those of us who keep large monitors use light banks, or rows of lights. The banks should be as long or lunger than the svl of the lizard. Burns can happen at surprisingly low temps when lights are used improperly.

Here's an example of how lights should be set up for large monitors.

In your current situation, the issue is more one of humidity and potential dehydration. The hotter the basking area, the faster the cage and the lizard will dry out. That's why it's so important to use a well sealed cage.

As for the trust issue, patience is the key. One of my niles remained illusive for over a year. Patience paid off eventually and he gradually lost fear of me. Food is the key. Try to be sure your critter knows where the groceries are coming from.

I did not see hide nor scale of this one for a year. Now he runs me down when I open the enclosure door hahaha.

Good luck

That is a wealth of useful information. Great pics too! I wonder how your lizards don't burn themselves since those bulbs are so low though and uncovered? My savs seem like they would pull on the lights and explore them and end up getting hurt someway. Great looking enclosure and specimens!
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

>>That is a wealth of useful information. Great pics too! I wonder how your lizards don't burn themselves since those bulbs are so low though and uncovered? My savs seem like they would pull on the lights and explore them and end up getting hurt someway. Great looking enclosure and specimens!
>>-----
>>1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
>>1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
>>1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
>>1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
>>0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
>>2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
>>1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
>>1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
>>1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
>>1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
>>1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
>>1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
>>2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

One of the basking areas has a surface temperature of 140F, the other 165. The heat is spread evenly across the basking areas spread out across the length of the lizards. They bask for short periods of between ten and fifteen minutes. They heat up quickly and go about their business. No need to spend more time than needed baking under the lights, risking burn.

They have knocked the bulbs loose a few times, never of any injury to the monitors.

I have been wondering--- at what basking spot temperature does plywood start to burn? I'm not will to try this at home.

i have a question about basking temps also
my bask for my bt is 143 at surface temp but i was wondering what about the temp on the monitors back when she spreads out thats another 2 inches closer to the bulb so her back temp would be around 150 right? is that ok or should i drop her basking site to were her back temp is around 145?

The temps consistantly available on that surface to evenly heat the animal from both sides, not about the surface temps on its back. Also basking temps are but one part of the puzzle in temps, air temps are needed, and must be usable or no basking temp is safe.
Your monitor will not burn with 145 or 150f basking temps if your cage allows for the lizard to be warm when it needs to, and to bask for short times and go about its business. Heck, 175f wont burn or harm your lizard if you have the lizard set up to make use of those temps properly. I posted those pics to demonstrate that the temps in them are used by monitors and cannot harm them if the cage is set up properly.
If you go outdoors and test basking temps in certain times of the year on many surfaces you would be suprised that even in the cooler areas of this country surface temps are alot higher than you would think. In the summer, on the pavement, in front of my house in the Northeast here the surface temps can be far over 200f. What do you suppose the surface temps in a place such as Northern or central Africa, or in Australia are throughout the year? Its not about the basking temps so much, but as a whole what temps available and how the reptile is able to make use of them together.

I feel an experiment coming on. Involving plywood only.

Recipe for disaster?
The original poster has problems with extremely high basking temps (way over 200) that may stem from the use of a 150 watt bulb which is far too much wattage for a reptile cage unless it was absolutely enormous. Sobeks cage only uses 135 watts currently between all of her lightbulbs.
I responded along with Robyns responce in reference to basking temps.
I figured that the other responces had covered enough and had no reason to add any more to it. In reference to hatchling monitors Ive always used from 125-135f basking spots, in a matter of weeks I raise those temps slowly.
The reason for dehydration in hatchling reptiles being such a big problem compared to adults has to do with surface area. For the overall area and size of the animals body the openings allowing moisture loss are much larger and the skin is thinner on hatchlings, and very young reptiles.
If the environment the animal is living in contains what is needed to retain moisture, and replace any lost moisture, as well retain heat. The wattage needed is very little, and basking temps can be varied as high as needed for the animal in questions individual needs.
The pictures I posted are taken from cages that had or have multiple 45 watt bulbs to spread the hotspot causing the entire body of the lizard to warm up evenly. Actually the highest basking temp is the only one with one bulb.
When someone uses too little heat to warm the entire lizards body evenly the animal basks too long and burns, or when the overall cage temps are too low the animal basks too long causing burns because the animal cannot warm up properly. High basking temps, or moderate temps are not a danger to properly caged varanids.
Irregular shaped basking spots not evenly placed from the bulb/bulbs can also add to the burn problem because the surface has areas that allow the animals skin to be closer in certain areas, and farther in other areas at the same time from the heat source.
Also about basking temps varying from one surface to another because of materials used as the basking surface. I personally like to use 2 materials, plywood produces big easy to build even basking temps at good distances from the bulb with low wattages, also its easy to modify, reshape, move, and add to.
1-Corkbark, it produces much higher basking temps at the same distances from the lightbulb. This is evidenced by the 195f basking spot my ackie uses. The bulb is closer to that surface, but if it were plywood that surface would be reading lower temps.
2-Rocks in my experience dont get as warm with lightbulbs, and do not warm up as evenly, also taking alot longer to warm up. Rocks are too easy to set up irresponsibly causing your animal injuries.
3-Plywood and similar wood surfaces that are light colored and have a smooth surface. They warm up evenly, hold heat great, are easy to make into whatever shape and size you want, and are easy to obtain.

.....about how exactly you use those temps or the dangers associated with having them set up improperly in your original post. You have photos of ackies in rubbermaid tubs with very high temp readings and no explanation. Some could easily misunderstand, and take that information and run with it to the detriment of their animals.

The original poster has no use for temps that high, especially considering his setup and the fact that his nile already spends most of it's time in the water.

Fishtank, rubbermaid tub, same difference. They can both become bone dry in no time when set up improperly. I'm sure you get the jist of what I'm saying.

Was made from a huge container (a 4.5ft by 2ft by 2ft container), not a rubbermaid, in fact none of the commonly available containers come close in size.
One was a fish tank that was converted with a solid top and a small amount of ventilation in that top which took some trial and error to get right.
Both of these cages are efficient at holding heat and moisture, in fact for smaller reptiles the use of plastic containers is much better for making cages, simply because they are very good at retaining heat and moisture.
The majority of those cage pictures are from very big cages made from FRP lined plywood that require the use of multiple bulbs.
Also understand that high basking temps will not cause rapid heat or moisture loss and/or dehydration in a cage that does not hold heat that efficiently.
If you have an inefficient cage it loses heat and moisture faster, therefore the overall air temperature suffers causing you to need higher wattage to accomplish certain temps, this in turn causes rapid loss of moisture and dehydration to occur.
In fact placing a low wattage halogen bulb closer to the surface allows you to place it inside the cage easier, therefore preventing rapid heat and moisture loss. Also low wattage bulbs are better because they produce less overall heat which effects the air temps less, this gives you a wider temperature range and allows your reptile to escape the heat easier. If you have a smaller cage, low wattage bulbs are the only way to accomplish proper heat gradients to allow the reptile to thermoregulate as needed.
I didnt feel the need to post so much information with the pictures, simply because the information concerning the cages problems were covered by others, I was giving examples to back up Robyns post. I did have to correct the information in this discussion, higher basking temps do not pose a danger to them.
I know a keeper that was emailing me pics and info from his collection a while back. He had cages with basking temps that were well beyond 200f, around 236f if I remember right. Keep in mind that I dont go that high, nor would I even get temps that high with my low wattage bulbs. This keeper has a bit of experience with monitors, and these temps were serving his right, if it works for them you cant say that it is wrong. I would be skeptical of setting up basking temps that high, although my ackies did have 205f for a while, that was from their own rearranging of the cage.