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Some general questions

DaTa Jan 24, 2009 01:37 PM

Hello. First thank for reading this and any help you might be able to offer.

I did search for these answers but 45000 hits came back and there seems to be alot of care sheets on the web but none really discuss breeding and/or incubation temps.

I have a trio of StillWater Bulls.

Here goes.....

After brumation how fast do we bring the sankes back up to temp.?

How long after returning them to temp and feeding them do we start to introduce the male into the females cage?

What temp and humidity level do we want the incubator set at?

Thanks again for your help
David

Replies (12)

Phil Peak Jan 25, 2009 09:13 AM

These questions are ones that do not necessarily have one definitive answer and like most aspects of snake husbandry success can be had with slightly varying formula's.

The methods I use have worked very well for me though others have also have good success by managing their animals differently.

"After brumation how fast do we bring the sankes back up to temp.?"

I generally put my snakes down for a full three months beginning in late Nov/ early Dec through around the first of March. While down I like to have the temps in the low to mid 50°'sF if possible but there is some natural temperature drift in my hibernacula and during this time the temps sometimes move into the lower 60°'sF for several days at a time if we are having unseasonably warm temps in our area. When bringing my snakes back up I usually give them a couple of days in temps of around 70° and then place them in their regular quarters where the DTH is at 80° or slightly above. The NTL's will be in the upper 60°F's to around 70°F. My snakes adjust rapidly to these conditions.

"How long after returning them to temp and feeding them do we start to introduce the male into the..."

I offer food after the snakes are up to regular temps for about a week. Most will feed at this time but on occasion they may skip the first offering and feed after several more days. The female snakes rarely declines the first offering of food but occasionally a male needs a few more days. The first meal I offer is generally a little smaller than I will usually feed them. I will start them off with a small rat to get their digestive tract up and running and move on to medium rats from there. Most of my males will feed around three times and then go into breed mode and have no further interest in food. If the female goes into a shed cycle I will wait until she sloughs her skin for introductions. Otherwise I introduce the snakes before the first shed of the year. Unlike many other colubrids (corns, kings, rats, etc..), Pits often times have their first shed after being up for several months. If you wait for the first shed of your female there is the distinct possibility of missing the breeding window of opportunity. I also prefer to introduce the female to the males enclosure rather than the other way around. I will keep the female and male together for several days - separate and repeat the process in a week or so. During this time the male will most likely refuse food but the female will feed heavily. Sometimes courtship and copulation takes place immediately, other times it may take awhile. It is important to be patient and if at all possible try to have the snakes together at a time in which you can be present so that you can confirm that an actual copulation occurs.

"What temp and humidity level do we want the incubator set at?"

I have heard of more colubrid eggs being lost by using an incubator than for any other reason. Not to say that an incubator can not be successfully used to incubate Pit eggs but honestly a lot can go wrong when applying an auxillary heat source to Pit eggs. Unlike python eggs Pit eggs do not need steady temps in the high 80°sF. A one time malfunction during the incubation period where the temps become too high can kill an entire clutch in a matter of hours. I much prefer to keep it simple and safe. I use a plastic sterilite shoe box filled with damp vermiculite or perlite with moderate humidity. I like to see some condensation on the sides of the box but I avoid allowing the medium from becoming wet. Through the process I will adjust the humidity inside the box by lightly misting the sides and medium if the eggs begin to desicate. This will usually be evident if the eggs begin caving in somewhat early in the incubation process. Additional humidity will fill the eggs back out. Do not mist water directly onto the eggs. Once in the plastic shoe box I place the eggs on an upper shelf in my snake room and begin the incubation process. I keep a digital thermometer there so I can monitor the temps and see what the DTH's and NTL's are. I place them in a location where there is a natural temperature drift with the lows in the mid 70°'sF and the highs in the mid 80°'sF. If the temps drop down below this for a brief period there will not be a problem. However, if the temps are allowed to go into the 90°'sF you run the risk of losing the clutch or in having deformed offspring. Exceedingly high temps are to be avoided at all times! This is why I avoid using standard incubators. They are usually unnessesary and if you have a malfunction on your thermostat you can lose an entire clutch within hours. A friend of mine lost nearly a dozen clutches of colubrids eggs last year when this happened to him when all he really needed to do was set up his eggs in plastic boxes on shelves in his snake room. I highly recommend keeping it simple and taking the risk out of it since Pit eggs will do fine with daily temperature fluctuations. With this regimen my eggs usually hatch between 65- 75 days post laying.

This is how I manage both pines and bulls with good success and by using these methods I expect and usually achieve 100% hatch rate of perfect hatchlings.

Hope this helps!

Phil

ginter Jan 25, 2009 09:43 AM

I would 2nd everything Phil has said, especially his timing of male/female introductions(don't wait for shed cues...just start putting them together), and excluding the use of an incubator. Key in Phil's description was to note that everyone will follow these general rules with their own twists so to speak.

I generally put males into female enclosures and only because I figure in the wild males will be roaming out seeking females....probably makes no difference.

Also, take care not to put them together too soon after a meal. I have had snake regurge during the "excitement" of copulation, wait 4-5 days.

I have actually tried a totally new method this year. I may ultimately regret it if it fails but I kept all of my pairs together during brumation and during the "wake up" stage. I have witnessed wild herps grouping in a single hibernacula and I have also witnessed male desert tortoises holding females in shelter sites over winter presumable to get first dibs in the spring!

We will know in a few months if there is any advantage to this method.

I am curious to know if Phil will breed any of the western Kentucky NP this year?

Phil Peak Jan 25, 2009 09:54 AM

Will and I are very optimistic about our chances this year. Will definitely keep everyone posted on our progress!

Thanks for the interest.

Phil

PitOffice Jan 27, 2009 06:32 PM

Hey Phil, a great response! Can you add any tips on how you set things up for the female post-copulation? Thanks, Bryan

Phil Peak Jan 27, 2009 08:12 PM

Thanks Bryan. Post copulation I prefer to disturb my females as little as possible. I provide multiple hides and a daily temperature gradient from NTL's near 70°F and DTH's in the mid 80°F's. The bulk of a 24 hour cycle will be near this extreme with a temporary cool down at night. At this stage the females appetites have kicked in full bore and I believe in feeding them generously. Depending on the snake this usually means a medium rat every five to seven days depending on the snake. Egg laying takes a lot out of female Pits and I believe that it is important to feed them well at this critical juncture. After laying I continue feeding them heavy so that they can put the weight back on. As egg laying grows near the females will become restless and begin looking for good locations within their enclosure to deposit their clutch. I provide nesting box's for my gravid females which they normally use, but the occasional female will lay in a hide or even in an open area of the enclosure. I house my females in 72 quart boxes. This is how I manage pines and bulls. There could well be some differences in how best to manage the Mexican Pits and gophers, especially in the area of feeding requirements.

Phil

Phil Peak Jan 27, 2009 08:16 PM

As females draw nearer the time in which they will be laying they will often go off food due to the developing eggs within their bodies. I feed them heavily shortly after copulation and as the girls begin swelling I modify the size of the food offered. This way I am usually able to get a couple of smaller measls in them before they go off food completely.

Phil

PitOffice Jan 30, 2009 03:31 PM

np

antelope Jan 30, 2009 08:13 PM

Phil! Nice to hear from you, long time! What will you be breeding this year?
-----
Todd Hughes

Phil Peak Feb 01, 2009 04:33 PM

Hello Todd,

I'm a little late getting back on here. We were blind sided by a wicked ice storm and I'm just now catching up.

I sent you an e-mail reply a few minutes back.

Thanks,

Phil

BBBruno Jan 25, 2009 11:13 AM

I too like to do at least a 90 day hibernation, but I've had much breeding success with shorter ones as well; I've hibernated animals for as little as 70 to 75 days and wound up with a pile of hatchlings by Summer's end. Because I've worked extensively with cold weather Bullsnakes, I've always tried to keep them down at around 48-55 degrees F; these temps have worked well with subs from all over, but as I've come to realize, it's not mandatory to get them that cold (and given our unpredictable New England winters,it's not often easy to reach such a low temp)55 to 60 will work, but go with 90 days at that temp. Total darkness is also important; I usually cover over cages with bedspreads and the like in an already dark hibernaculum. I offer food to both sexes after a warming period of 10 days. If the males refuse to feed, I view that as an excellent sign; I've had many a male Pine or Bull not feed until mid June, by which time breeding has ceased (they more than make up for it in the coming months). They frequently come out ready to breed; if they eat at first, that's fine, but the moment they show no interest in food, put them with a female, you should see activity. Hope this helps, these methods have worked for me now going on thirty years, and have succeeded in breeding Pituophis from British Columbia to New Mexico and just about all points east; this year just past, I added Kentucky to the list of successful breedings (thanks Phil!).

Bart

DaTa Jan 25, 2009 11:49 AM

Thank you everyone! The information is appreciated and I will make sure I post pics of the eggs and hatchlings if all goes well.

Looks like the new Hovabator will stay in the box.

Great info!
David

zhaa Jan 27, 2009 10:27 PM

The use of an incubator really depends on the conditions readily available. I have lived places where an incubator was totally unnecessary, but currently use incubators with good success. I have everything in the basement, and when the air conditioner isn't on, the conditions are fine. Ironically, I need it for the hottest days because the air is on and the basement can be fairly cool and dry. I use Hovabators and they work fine for what I need.

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