Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Finally after 68 days the four leopard rat eggs have pipped, my last ones to do so. There was one out this morning, a striped morph. I was worried because I'd heard they sometimes have a hard time getting out of the egg, so I had made the slits larger last night. Anyone else hear about situla having trouble hatching, or going 68 days, or longer? Schulz ('96) said that it could take up to 73 days.

Incubation temps @ 81*F.

BTW, There's some very interesting info starting to come out about Zamenis situla (previously Elaphe). Not only is their incubation time much longer than the small Elaphe (13 to 33 days in dione), but their eggs are dimpled, like racer (Coluber) eggs. Also, according to Utiger, et al. ('02), Zamenis is part of a separate radiation from the Elaphe which spread over Eurasia (northern radiation). I'm starting to suspect this southern radiation, including Zamenis, could be somewhat allied with the Old World racers.

Just some thoughts to leave you all with. Feel free to post any ideas about situla or other Zamenis. More news on the babies later....

TC
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Ratsnake Haven: schrencki, dione, bimaculata, mandarinus, conspicillatus, t. taeniurus, situla, emoryi-intermontana, emoryi-meahllmorum, p. pyromelana, zonata multifasciata, getula splendida, and calligaster rhombomaculata.

Congrats on the hatchlings! Post some pics when you get the chance...
Lora

Congrats! Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. ----glenn

Excellent!!!
Let me know if you have a female you dont have space for.HaHa.
How does their color vary compared to the ones we got from Ted?
I have been suprised by how cool mine appear to prefer it. After refering to Schulz's book on Elaphe I set them up with a warm and cool side in the range they are suppost to prefer. They stayed at the cool end all of the time so I now have them set up more like my mandarins(temp wise)with no heat under them but they are just under a heated level so they get very little heat on one end. With this set up they still stay on the cool side most of the time. My guess is that this paticular bloodline might be from one of their more northern ranges and might be the reason for their cool temp preferances. Opinions?
Later, Randy Whittington

Randy, mine seemed to prefer slightly cool also. I tried to use overhead heat with the female in the spring, but she didn't use it much. She did sit in the sun in the morning when it was cooler..only about 70-74*F. The warmest I've had mine was about 80* for a high for the day. They had the same ambient temps as my Mandarins

Terry

>>I have been suprised by how cool mine appear to prefer it. After refering to Schulz's book on Elaphe I set them up with a warm and cool side in the range they are suppost to prefer. They stayed at the cool end all of the time so I now have them set up more like my mandarins(temp wise)with no heat under them but they are just under a heated level so they get very little heat on one end. With this set up they still stay on the cool side most of the time. My guess is that this paticular bloodline might be from one of their more northern ranges and might be the reason for their cool temp preferances. Opinions?
>>Later, Randy Whittington

Hi all!
I have tried the warmer temp range with the situlas in the beginning as well, but after talking to somebody who has actually done field research on situla, in what was then Yugoslavia, changed the environment in the situla tank. He told me that even though southern Europe has very warm summers, he always found situla in cool micro habitats. I have always kept my situlas at room temperature (about 75 deg F like Terry mentioned) with a fluorescent light for day night cycles. When the temperatures got a bit warmer in the room, the situlas would always seek out the water bowl to cool off.

Best regards,

Sacha

PS: After some digging, I may be able to find his paper (about 10 pages) for anyone interested. Didn't I send you a copy a few years ago, Terry?

Ratsnakes of the Genus Elaphe

Hello, Sacha.

Hope all is well with you. Do you still keep the leopard rats?

You did send me a paper on the Persians (by Schulz, I believe) a couple years ago, but I don't remember a paper on the leopard rats. I'd love to have a copy.

Thanks for the info and keep in touch...

TC

Hi Terry,

No, my situlas are with Rick Mauldin in Colorado now. I have been trimming down my collection to focus more on my porphyracea, conspicillata, prasina, and hohenackeri. I'll send you a copy of the situla paper when I find it. I think I know where it is, but can't get to it right now as we're getting new carpet tomorrow and have pretty much everything crammed in the room that doesn't get new carpet
I'll try to get it out next week, but you may to remind me. Is your address still the one I have?

Later,

Sacha

Sacha,

My address is still the same. Thanks very much and take your time. I really appreciate it. BTW, the Brazos Is. Rat you sent me is doing great. I really like those guys and will be getting a few more soon.

Sounds like you still have some very nice Old World ratsnakes. More control in sizing down than me though, lol. Which porphys are you working with?

You might be the only American working with hohenackeri, at least that I know of. I'd be interested in learning how they're doing and if you're going to breed them soon. If you don't want to post about them, drop me an e-mail when you have a couple minutes. I wouldn't mind trying those one day

Take care...

Terry

I hope to breed them nexy year, my male isn't a big eater but my female seems a guttata
I'd like to see pics of them (and of the striped morph)
regards
nazzza

Just got back from a field trip and found all four situla out of their eggs...two striped and two spotted morphs...no inbetweens. That would be the last of my eggs for this year.

A little history. The parents included one striped female and one spotted male. The female was a good size, much larger than the male. She still only laid four eggs for her first time breeding. It's cool that the clutch ended up half striped morph and half spotted. I wonder what would happen if both parents were striped, or both spotted?

Anyway, the babies are very healthy looking at first glance and full of spit and vinegar. All were snapping at me and biting when I picked them up. They appear very healthy and full of yolk. To answer Randy, they look a little more colorful than the ones we bought at Daytona, and slightly larger. I took a couple pics I had left on my roll and will process them tomorrow. These guys are so cute and primitive looking. I'm really starting to like situla

Another interesting thing about this clutch has to do with my intervention after they pipped. Three eggs were pipped with two noses sticking out. One egg hadn't pipped. The egg that was pipped, but with no hatchling visible, I left alone as a control subject. The other two eggs that pipped, I made the hole larger. The one that hadn't pipped, I cut open and made the hole larger, like the others. I thought it interesting that they all came out. I feel all that had pipped would have gotten out anyway, but the one not pipped may have benefitted from the intervention.

Well, I'm pretty excited. I'm gonna go take care of my animals now. 'Til later then...

TC

>I'm really starting to like situla.

I knew you'd come around and warm up to my favorite Old World snake sooner or later. LOL. It does look like one of the snakes benefited from you slitting the egg. Several people with Asians seem to slit the eggs more than I thought. Some will slit all the eggs after one in the clutch pips. Some eggs, ridleyi for example, have eggs where the shell hardens at the end of incubation to a point the snake may not be able to slit the egg itself I've heard.

>>Just got back from a field trip and found all four situla out of their eggs...two striped and two spotted morphs...no inbetweens. That would be the last of my eggs for this year.
>>
>>A little history. The parents included one striped female and one spotted male. The female was a good size, much larger than the male. She still only laid four eggs for her first time breeding. It's cool that the clutch ended up half striped morph and half spotted. I wonder what would happen if both parents were striped, or both spotted?
>>
>>Anyway, the babies are very healthy looking at first glance and full of spit and vinegar. All were snapping at me and biting when I picked them up. They appear very healthy and full of yolk. To answer Randy, they look a little more colorful than the ones we bought at Daytona, and slightly larger. I took a couple pics I had left on my roll and will process them tomorrow. These guys are so cute and primitive looking. I'm really starting to like situla
>>
>>Another interesting thing about this clutch has to do with my intervention after they pipped. Three eggs were pipped with two noses sticking out. One egg hadn't pipped. The egg that was pipped, but with no hatchling visible, I left alone as a control subject. The other two eggs that pipped, I made the hole larger. The one that hadn't pipped, I cut open and made the hole larger, like the others. I thought it interesting that they all came out. I feel all that had pipped would have gotten out anyway, but the one not pipped may have benefitted from the intervention.
>>
>>Well, I'm pretty excited. I'm gonna go take care of my animals now. 'Til later then...
>>
>>TC

I wonder if the thicker harder eggs are why more Asian ratsnake folks are slitting eggs, or if it's just that it's a safer way to get hatchlings. I got 100% hatch rate this year, btw Happy, happy....

TC

>>>I'm really starting to like situla.
>>
>>I knew you'd come around and warm up to my favorite Old World snake sooner or later. LOL. It does look like one of the snakes benefited from you slitting the egg. Several people with Asians seem to slit the eggs more than I thought. Some will slit all the eggs after one in the clutch pips. Some eggs, ridleyi for example, have eggs where the shell hardens at the end of incubation to a point the snake may not be able to slit the egg itself I've heard.
>>

I think the ridleyi for example start out with a softer or flexible egg shell. At the end of the incubation period the shell really hardens up. Some with ridleyi say a neonate couldn't get out of the hardend egg shell no matter what. The breeders watch their temps and incubation time real close. Some start slitting eggs at their calculated end of incubation and don't even wait for the one to pip. I've heard where a few breeders put moist spaghnum moss over the eggs towards the end of incubation. The spaghnum moss moisture turns a little acidic from the moss and this helps break down the shell for the snake. I can't think of which acid it is.

>>I wonder if the thicker harder eggs are why more Asian ratsnake folks are slitting eggs, or if it's just that it's a safer way to get hatchlings. I got 100% hatch rate this year, btw Happy, happy....
>>
>>TC
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>>
>>
>>
>>>>>I'm really starting to like situla.
>>>>
>>>>I knew you'd come around and warm up to my favorite Old World snake sooner or later. LOL. It does look like one of the snakes benefited from you slitting the egg. Several people with Asians seem to slit the eggs more than I thought. Some will slit all the eggs after one in the clutch pips. Some eggs, ridleyi for example, have eggs where the shell hardens at the end of incubation to a point the snake may not be able to slit the egg itself I've heard.
>>>>
>>