Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it ok to put them on a leash? Or is that uncool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuTYm855STM

Pretty uncool because monitors would not wear leashes in their natural state. Some people do it though.
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

Hahaha that argument wont work.

Heres why - in their natural state they reproduce and live to get old....not 2 years or 5, but OLD OLD OLD.

In captivity (widespread) they do not do those things.

Mike.

It seems like it could be good exercise for them...if you live in a hot climate.

True... It just seems wrong to have a huge monitor on the leash walkin it around the neighborhood though, ya know? It's like whenever my girlfriend 'baby talks' to my monitors and I have to say "Come on, it's not a dog!"... It's like that... It's not a dog!
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

They are not dogs, they get exercise differently than canines do. Being varanids, they do not enjoy being tied to a predator, being forced to walk on asphalt which will rip up their feet, being forced to stay exposed in the open, and approached by other big fast moving predators.
Bad idea to stress them out by leashing them for walks. Dogs enjoy walks because they are less than 2% different than a gray wolf (their ancestor) which instinctualy lives for the purpose to travel and hunt with their pack, hence why dogs love going for walks on a leash with their alpha.
Think of the world through their point of view, not the point of view of a human or a dog.

Huh? The vast majority don't make it to adulthood in the wild. Hence they have so many eggs. Longevity records for many captive reptile species frequently far exceed that of their wild counterparts.

They wouldn't wear a leash in the wild is also a weird argument, they also wouldn't live in a fish tank, but what does that have to do with anything? We put a leash on a dog don't we?
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"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."

"Huh? The vast majority don't make it to adulthood in the wild. Hence they have so many eggs. Longevity records for many captive reptile species frequently far exceed that of their wild counterparts"

Sir, please re-read my post. You are right the vast majority do not make it to adult hood in the wild. I never said otherwise.

Then you talk about longevity records...that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID. Not a thing.

The point is SIMPLE, for every 100 that make it to adult hood in the wild...how many make it to adult hood being captive?

Mike.

" The point is SIMPLE, for every 100 that make it to adult hood in the wild...how many make it to adult hood being captive? "

That's an impossible question to answer. Numbers get thrown around but there's nothing factual to make comparisons with. It's all estimates and speculation.

There are many variables involved with survival rates in terms of species and populations. I think a major factor that separates death in captivity from death in the wild is usage. More or less the basic difference is, The animals that die in nature are incorporated into the system .Their deaths have value to the natural order. In captivity they just die. Theres more to the numbers then just comparing survival rates .

As far as putting a leash on a monitor . You can . You can also put a Goanna Ranch T shirt on one, but why ?

Ernie Eison

Westwood Acres Reptile farm Inc.
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

the lack of factual evidence.

Where are all the adult monitors?

Mike.

There are far more wild monitors that survive to become a reproductive adult than captivity could come close to touching.
In fact regardless of what anyone would like to think, very few monitors in captivity survive more than a few months, or a few years. Just look at the numbers of people and their monitors that come to this forum then disappear after a month, or a year. You couldnt keep track of them, at all.

Or we go away because we get our questions answered and don't feel like lounging around the forums posting I've been here off and on for as long as I've had my sav, but I'll go 2-3 years between post sometimes.

Simply because their monitor is dead and they gave up.

That's a very general question do you mean savannas , black throats , roughnecks , niles ?

There are many adult monitors of all kinds to be found in captivity. Sure most baby monitors of the commonly available pet trade species cash out before they get to old because of husbandry but how does this compare to the number of juveniles that die young in nature on a one to one basis is the point of contention . This isn't just a common sense question this is one that involves a statistical answer and requires authentic research. To this point there are only theoretical numbers to work with. It's all estimates and guesses. Assumptive answers and discounting variables do not equal common sense.

" The point is SIMPLE, for every 100 that make it to adult hood in the wild...how many make it to adult hood being captive? "

Was the original question not how many captive adults are reproductively viable as in actually reproduce opposed to a like number of wild individuals. Different answer . Different question.

" There are far more wild monitors that survive to become a reproductive adult than captivity could come close to touching. " Shvar

I think you would win that bet . Your response involved reproduction not just reaching maturity or average life expectancy . I think on a one to one basis it's correct. Adult animals in nature reproduce it's the prime directive it's why they exist in captivity this is not always the case due to human intervention.Captivity is a different game.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Please read my first post. In regards to reproduction. Somthing monitors DO in the wild with no problems, but do not do in captivity. Same goes for getting old.

Please keep in mind this is a generalization (as a whole not taking into account people like frank who are few and far between). I think you are looking to break apart each word and scientifically anaylize it hahahahahahahah this is so simple.

So if you want to put your monitor on a leash, hahahah go for it. Usually these people will just become another peice of the evidence that supports my argument.
Mike

[Usually these people will just become another peice of the evidence that supports my argument.]

Key word there being 'Usually', that's probably true. But, what can you expect when a forum such as this, simply does not tolerate new ideas, in this case "monitors on leashes"?

Take that video of the Rudi on a leash for example of 'not the ususal' person, successfully walking her monitor on a leash. If those people were able to communicate freely, without being flamed for doing something you guys say is 'tabu', maybe we could learn from them, what works and what doesn't. Sort of, like with the breeders. Not everyone wants to breed their monitor though, so maybe there's a place for 'other' types of keepers, with different ideas to share? How will we ever know, if they aren't able to share it on a forum? Okay- youtube I guess, but that can do more harm than good. Here, we can ask specific questions and so can more experienced keepers. It's about communication isn't it?

Usually is the keyword.

Not always. Usually is not a generalization, it could be more of a probability like 80%, who knows the real number, but without a doubt it is usually.

Also since it isnt always the case there are some people who throw them on a leash and its more interaction then some people dedicate to their animal, and some of them may posses some decent husbandry too, that fine....but promoting it on youtube hahaha come on. That make little kids go beg mommy to put a leash on the sav, or the parrot, or the cat or their little brother.

Hahaha what a fun topic.
Mike.

" Heres why - in their natural state they reproduce and live to get old....not 2 years or 5, but OLD OLD OLD. " " In captivity (widespread) they do not do those things. "

Is that your first post ? For the most part assumptive and vague. True guys like Frank are not the norm but you have to factor in that VERY FEW people want to go that route. A large percentage of people maintain monitors as "pets" not breeders. These people aren't trying to get 5 clutches a season out of an animal that should produce one every other year. They just want to keep a pet lizard. Maybe some of these legends should take a step back and try to remember what it was like to want to have one or two nice animals as oppose to pounding them over the head with if you don't breed them your a failure . What these guys often fail to mention is all the failures and problems they have. All the animals that die or do poorly under their care. I don't know if you have ever bred anything but for me breeding monitors didn't require much more in the way of husbandry skill then it did just to keep them as pets. Anyone can do it most don't try . I don't see any problem with not breeding your lizards in fact it might be a good thing.

" " The point is SIMPLE, for every 100 that make it to adult hood in the wild...how many make it to adult hood being captive? "

This is the question I replied to.

I addressed your question exactly as written and also Shvars view as written. Not by breaking it down on a word for word basis . Two different scenarios If anyone can give a more accurate account I'm all for it. This is preferable to replying with defensive condescending nonsense that is much more reveling about what you don't know then it is about what you know. Please read all my post and do so with a bit more comprehension. It is clear you could benefit .

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Oh man. I'm too tired from all this reading.

I do agree you with finally on one thing. Most people do not want to go that route. But frank was referenced for the reason more so that he allows his monitors to get old. Like a few others do too.

In general...that does not happen.

Simple...this is all simple.

Thanks for dedicating your time to my education.
Mike.

Using Franks longer lived animals as a comparison example to the average keeper is one thing comparing the average keepers animals to wild animals is another.

It's simple when talking apples to apples , captive to captive wild to wild taking a superficial perspective but not when making cross over comparisons . A lot of x factors. long , old is relative. You siad that in their natural state they reproduce and live to get old....not 2 years or 5, but OLD OLD OLD. Most likely this true for very few individuals . Also variances in longevity , reproduction etc. could vary greatly from population to population let alone species to species. More to think about then just blanket statments. Example species .

The most commonly kept species is the Savanna monitor . In captivity 2 to fives years might not be a great number when the potential is considered but compared to the average life span of a wild individual this might be far better then average. I don't know if you have ever seen wild gravid Savannas but they begin to reproduce at a VERY small size possibly under 6 months of age. This is not indicative of species that is going to be Old etc etc. but more in line with animal that is planning on not being around to long. Saying that these lizards typically live a shorter then average life under captive conditions then they normally would in the wild might be far from the truth. Saying that these lizards live on average a shorter captive life then they should is probaly a more accurate statment. Sorry about all the reading.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farms Inc.

All i read was your first sentance...your not getting the point. I am done.

This caught my attention. I think that most people dont realize that in the wild monitors take years to become sexually mature because mother nature is rough on them. I seem to remember that a bosc would become sexually mature in the wild at around 3 or more years old, yet they are still small and growing over many years just to reach 80-100 cm for a male. An albig for example becomes sexually mature in natures care at around 6 years old. With these examples its easy to see why so many people get these animals from imported sources and think that the animal is young because it is small yet.
To compare, how long does the average bosc monitor live in captivity? Anywhere from a month to a year, or a few years at most.
Years ago they used to import adult monitors from all over the world, examples are 6ft black throats, 6ft plus water monitors, imagine just how old those commonly imported animals were then. These animals never lived long, they should not have been imported, and should have been left alone, but they were poplar in the pet trade to get them big already. These animals were possibly 12-15 years old or more. So bosc monitors imported at 2-3ft long were probably 4-6 years old already, this takes the reproductive animals from the ecosystem.
In the wild indeed 1 from 100 survive to become productive adults, in captivity very very few ever survive to become 5 years old.
There is a comment about some people not getting monitors to breed them, I see this point, and I agree with it. The goal then should be shooting for sexual maturity, and the ability to reproduce if they have a proper mate to do so with as a minimum goal. The problem is that stressing your monitor on a leash, keeping it free roaming in your house, or keeping it in a way that does not allow it to grow up and develop is cruelty.
I have no problem with a leash being used as a safety device if you need to remove the animal from its cage temporarily and have no other option. But to hook it to a leash to walk it in public to show it off, and shock other people is wrong.
Ive always found that if my monitors trust me enough to take them outdoors they dont run away from me.

The estimates on wild growth rates and ages of maturity may or may not be accurate but I don't discount the notion that it might take a wild savanna 3 or more years to reach maturity . I believe it for the most part ,

But in seeing the population density's of hatchlings compared to the number of larger adults combined with the youthful condition of many very small gravid females . I think it's plausible that it could happen a lot sooner then estimated . At least a percentage of the population. Like I've been saying things could also vary greatly from population to population. It's all poorly studied.

I can say this for sure. In some places hatching's are ether gobbled up by predators or grabbed up by trappers . Seemly very few make it. Still the populations in these places stays strong year after year. I partially attribute this to the fact that the guys sort of have learned to leave the adults alone. If the trade in baby's gets cut off they will have no value and the trappers will go back to hunting the adults.

. Overall I agree with your numbers and with your take on the leash issue.

The importation of large adult monitors for the pet trade was and is terrible / horrible / horrendous ! Just like it is for adult boas , anacondas , pythons . Large adult reptiles of any kind need to be left alone.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

[I partially attribute this to the fact that the guys sort of have learned to leave the adults alone.]

Are you saying that the 'farmers' are out of business now?

No not out of business what I meant ,

You probably know this they don't really farm them they just call it that. What they do is at the start of the rainy season the babys hatch in huge numbers and one by one the guys catch them. They know that if they leave the adults alone every year they can sell baby's.

The Uk decided they wouldn't except this so in order to sell to the Uk they have to collect gravid females and hatch the eggs. Then release the females . This is way worst because they just get dumped in bad shape anywhere. You lose both the reproductively viable females the most import animal and most of the baby's. But the UK feels it's better for them because their getting true captive hatched animals and not wild caught babys.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Rep[tile Farm Inc.

[The Uk decided they wouldn't except this so in order to sell to the Uk they have to collect gravid females and hatch the eggs. Then release the females . This is way worst because they just get dumped in bad shape anywhere. You lose both the reproductively viable females the most import animal and most of the baby's. But the UK feels it's better for them because their getting true captive hatched animals and not wild caught babys.]

I didn't know it was the UK who determined this. Also, if Daniel Bennet is reading, I'd really like that information confirmed by him, since it's his research that brought this outrageous practice to the attention of the monitor keeping community.

In Africa, large gravid female monitors are taken to holding pens until they lay their eggs, they are then “released” into the wild (more or less thrown down in some random place, the stress of the whole event likely kills the poor girl) (Bennet 2004). The eggs are collected and hatched, then exported to Europe and the United States, where they are shipped to various pet shops across the countries and sold as “captive hatched” or “captive born” (Bennet 2004).

What I can add is that animals obtained buy the method described above are classified as CB / CH (captive Born or Hatched) . The other cites classifications are W (wild caught ) or R (ranched). In 04 savannahs shipped to the US went from being shipped as W to being shipped as R. The UK will only accept animals marked CB. In theory the only way to obtain CB paperwork would be to hatch the animals as described by Daniel. The exporter needs proof that he has adult animals. This is what the UK wants.

The US will except ranched or wild caught animals that for the most part are collected by hand during the rainy season this is far less stressful on wild populations.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

[The UK will only accept animals marked CB. In theory the only way to obtain CB paperwork would be to hatch the animals as described by Daniel. The exporter needs proof that he has adult animals. This is what the UK wants.]

Sounds like someone over there, needs to get their head out of their butts then.

[The US will except ranched or wild caught animals that for the most part are collected by hand during the rainy season this is far less stressful on wild populations.]

Just as bad, when you consider the volume coming here.

[In Africa, large gravid female monitors are taken to holding pens until they lay their eggs]

I wonder how many die, like they seem to here in captivity, when they don't lay because they're too stressed?

The other thing I forgot to mention earlier is, maybe the UK wants to stop the capture of 'mature' animals for importation for the pet trade?
That's something I hate to see, a beautiful adult, established, monitor, ripped from it's natural habitat, to be stuck in GD box, or fishtank.
I don't know which is worse, that, or farming gravid females, then turning them loose to die. Stinks either way

Why dont they get a dog if thats what they want. If someone wants to take a pet for a walk, then a dog is by far your best choice. If I were to put any monitors on a leash and try walking them the way I walk my dogs they would dead like most monitors in captivity end up, in a few months or so.
Theres just no comparing a monitor and their idea of a walk to a dog.

I put a link up in the OP... It showed the guy walking a monitor in the grass for exercise. you let them lead the way there's no jerking on the leash.

Walk in grass

That was too sweet! Sorry, if it's so frowned upon, but that right there, looked like one happy monitor.

I'm going to show my ignorance again now and guess it was a Mertens? Gorgeous, whatever!

would be my guess
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0.0.1 D. Leucomela
0.0.1 D. Azureus
1.0.0 Leopard gecko
0.0.1 Blue-tailed monitor
0.1.0 Brazilian rainbow boa
0.0.1 Pearl river map turtle
1.0.0 Red eared slider
1.0.0 Yellow bellied slider
0.0.1 Red bellied slider
4.1.0 Painted turtle
1.0.0 Three-lined musk
0.0.1 Musk turtle
4.1.0 Diamondback terrapin
1.0.0 Duck
0.1.0 Cat
0.1.0 Dog

Why? For your enjoyment? Certainly not the Monitors.........
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South Central Herpetological

...how would you get them to heel? Walk with a rat in your pocket? Cmon!!!

If you want to take them outdoors, great build something to keep them contained.

Otherwise, think about all the small bones than can be harmed if someone actually pulled on the leash
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1.1.0 YBS
1.3.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
1.0.0 Fire belly toad
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor
0.0.1 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Mountain Horned dragon
2.1.0 Ball pythons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

some one might have said this already but... under the right husbandry you shouldn't have to put a monitor on a leash. they should have enough room in there cage to get exercise they need.
but if u just really want to put one on it... know when to stop. like if the monitor shows you that he/she really doesn't like it don't do it! it'll let you know really quick wether it likes it or not! but if it does what it usually does in its cage (provided it has the right care) and does not pay any attention to the leash then why does it matter?
the first idea when someone asks a question like this is of a lizard being dragged around! if thats what it does then no its not cool. like i said above under the right conditions u shouldn't need to put it on a leash for exercise.
cheers
jake
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1.1 v. griseus

My concerns would be, the stress on the animal in being in an unfamilar environment, unfamiliar smells and noises.

...and I find it hard to believe there is no pulling on the leash when they swim to far outin the water, or climb to high in the tree.

What will you do if a dog comes running up?

If there really is no pulling or tugging at all, then what is the leash for?

My Savannah can be taken out in the yard in a familiar area, and no leash is needed
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1.1.0 YBS
1.3.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
1.0.0 Fire belly toad
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor
0.0.1 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Mountain Horned dragon
2.1.0 Ball pythons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

[What will you do if a dog comes running up?]

I'm thinking, most of the people who want to put a leash on their monitors, are also handling them a lot? And if they're too big to pick up, the dog better watch out!)

If I took mine outdoors in the open,or even in the back yard, I'd put some sort of leash on it, just in case it darted off into the bushes or something. Not something I've tried, or even thinking about really, but better to be safe than sorry, if you're going to do it anyway.

stress would be a big concern! though that would depend on the species and the animal. though putting a leash on a it can destroy the trust your monitor has in you! witch is an unnecessary risk! so wether or not you should is up to you and how much you are willing to try to get back its trust.
jake
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1.1 v. griseus

My savs can go in the yard as well with no leash as long as its the summer time. I don't really see a problem having it on the leash like in that video (by the way i think it may have been a roughneck? Not positive) Anyway I don't think it seems wrong, the animal is not being injured or fighting it, the animal is getting exercise and cannot run away completely... but once again, it JUST SEEMS WRONG... IT'S A MONITOR NOT A DOG!

It's like a dude wearing a dress... He COULD do it, but it's just wrong....
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

Wow, I think you're right, about it being a roughneck! You just don't get to see many pics of them as it is, but that looked like a very healthy specimen!!

btw- first you said 'it doesn't seem wrong', then you said 'it just seems wrong') like a guy in a dress- a little conflicted maybe;?)lol

Conflicted??? YES. Ha ha. I'll put it this way- I would not put a leash on my monitor. Ha ha.
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

No medium to large sized dog would have any problem killing even a large monitor (aside from a komodo dragon). The monitor may bite and injure the dog, but immediately after that lucky bite the dog would bite down and either crush the monitors head or neck then shake it so hard that the monitors neck would be broken.
My "medium sized breed" of dog is more than 2 times the weight of Sobek, the strength comparison is 2 different worlds. Remember that you cannot compare any other species of monitor to a komodo dragon as far as strength, mass, weight, and their ability to take on larger animals or defend themselves from larger predators.
If Sobek is brought upstairs to roam the house for a short time or to get pictures of her,the dogs are locked in the back of the house until shes back in the basement.

Don't you think a good tail whip to the face might be a little discouraging.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

It would also excite more, and cause them to go about it differently, then step up the attack to a more intense level. Heres a pretty tough wild animal that tried to defend itself, he didnt even have to shake it (dead instantly), just one bite. This thing was the size of a 4.5-5ft monitor lizard STV length.

Dogs don't approach reptiles the same way they do mamals such as in the pic. They are more likely to bark from a safe a distance and become more stand-offish, if the reptile hisses loudly and postures.

Even many much smaller than mine. My older dog (in the picture) used to approach nervously, but he doesnt bark, then when close he would determine if the animal looked tasty, then kill it instantly. Now he just approaches silently if hes unsure then kills it fast. My younger dog (the bigger one) just rushes in and is all over the animal like "stink on poop", usually distracting the animal for the older dog (the older dog never taught him to kill yet). I know many that kill animals the size of that groundhog and larger on a regular basis, also some very big rattlesnakes. The picture above he approached silently in a stalk, then struck instantly, thats just where he dropped it afterwards.
Most medium to large sized dogs like cats are far faster than a reptile is capable of being, and far more aggressive when it comes to prey.
Dogs that are unsure of the animal they see, or have no clue what it is will stand off and bark for a while at the intruder, but unlike reptiles canines will probe and poke until they determine if the animal is dangerous, then seek weakness, and exploit that weakness. I wouldnt expect this kind of prey drive from more modern breeds, but primative breeds are all business when it comes to prey. Heck, mine even chase coyotes (something the older one learned in Oklahoma from his family on the ranch, then taught the younger one).

Your dogs are wolf blooded dogs, right? Most are breeds are jackal blooded dogs and they are scavengers. Have you ever read Konrad Lorenz's King Soloman's Ring?

I don't trust any strange dogs around my animals. Stray dogs are captured, and feral cats shot on sight around here.

The Rough Neck monitor in the video looked like a monitor doing what monitors do to me. Obviosly he was quiet and cold at the end of the video as he rode home.

Monitor on a leash? I think it would depend on the situation, location and disposition of the monitor. To allow it to explore, swim, dig, climb trees, smell new things, these can not be found in most indoor enclosures, lets face it. Many experiences for monitors to be monitors, I am speaking of large species, can be reproduced in large outdoor pens adjoining winter quarters and this is my management style.

Any approaching dogs if I had a monitor on a leash I would instantly snatch up my animal like a babe in arms. Of course it would not be dragged around but allowed to explore on it's own terms. If it was stressed the adventure would be terminated. It would be away from the public as showing off a monitor to impress and freak out the public is reprehensable.

But I dont agree about some breeds of dogs being jackal blooded. In fact all dogs (minus the weapon/bomb sniffing dogs Russia developed and failed with because they were too jumpy around loud noises, they were husky/jackal mixes) are decended from Asian gray wolves, they are less than 2% different than a gray wolf, that little difference has to do with behavior. You could take any breed make switches in genetics with whats there and have a wolf. But more modern breeds of dogs are farther from the ancestor, therefore less like the ancestor in many ways.
Ive had a few of my large monitors in secluded outdoor areas where dogs in public approached (off leash and away from their owner) in the past. I got between the lizard and dog, then grabbed the dog to get it away until the owner caught up. These were golden retrievers, and pitbulls, both seemed to want to sniff then get away and just watch the lizard. Luckily the large German shepards we encountered were very well trained and wouldnt come closer than a few hundred feet.
I dont like stray cats at all(irresponsible owners dumped them), strays can be returned to human care as pets, but feral cats need to be either fixed and returned to the wild so they cannot reproduce, or kept enclosed wild, they will never like people. I trap strays but try to avoid capturing feral cats because they are usually euthanized when turned in to the HSUS. Im sure the few coyotes that roam the area enjoy outdoor cats, and strays on occasion, also the rare feral cat when encountered.
I dont take my monitors outdoors much anymore, and they havent been in view of the public for a long time now, at Sobeks size its probably better that way.

By no means am I promoting this practice, but it made me laugh, so thought I'd share it, since we were on the topic of dogs attacking monitors

The smell of food and meat in the dogs gaping, panting mouth draws a feeding responce in the monitor. If the dog is not careful they wil get bitten, usually just an exploratory taste.
I wouldnt want to allow that encounter either, both could get hurt.

>>By no means am I promoting this practice, but it made me laugh, so thought I'd share it, since we were on the topic of dogs attacking monitors

LOL< thanks for that laugh. Ive seen similar with my cat and male Savannah
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1.1.0 YBS
1.3.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
1.0.0 Fire belly toad
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor
0.0.1 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Mountain Horned dragon
2.1.0 Ball pythons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

Well you can't control people and what they will do, what you can control are say, the types of leashes to be used -something that is secure, comfortable and reliable and maybe actually made for a varanid. But as much as we don't want this to be, with all the potential restrictive laws out there, maybe we do want our monitors classified as domestic pet (like dog or cat), which are apparently immune to restriction,as it is painfully apparent to our native wildlife, that laws restricting free roaming cats and dogs are not enforced these days.

What you don't want is a free roaming reptile that gets spooked by a bird only to bolt away and end up on the news.
You also don't want a spooked varanid on a leash.
As more species are being "domesticated", maybe different species of pets, other than dogs, will be on leashes instead. I don't know, I don't agree but I do agree that secure containment is vital if any non-native animals are "unleashed" upon a native environment, be it a cat, dog or reptile.

Two further notes, I just saw a post about 2 adult savs up for sale. They were being housed in a 55 gallon tank. Yes, adults Savs. email me, if you want the picture. That said, I'm sure any varanid on a leash shown in those videos is getting more exercise than 90% of the ones kept in captivity.

Lastly, if the impetus is there to have your monitor outside make sure security and safety if primary concern. Like I said, you can't control what people do, but you can advise if they are going to do it anyway. Have you seen a salvadori running thru your backyard in the US. I know of people who have this past year.

Right now the average varanid keeper suddenly started breeding sucessfully and we stopped getting any, and all imported monitors period, in about 135,000 years of breeding this way with no new blood brought from the wild, we might see something resembling domestication in those monitors in captivity. Until then we are keeping wild lizards as captive pets, not domesticating them.

Putting an animal on a leash is about conditioning not domestication. You can train a tiger to walk on leash much easier then you can train a house cat. On the other hand dogs take to leash's very easily but try to get a wolf on one. Monitors are very intelligent and obviously prone to conditioning . I'm sure they can be conditioned to except being put on leash. It might be a nuisance to them but I'm sure they deal with it.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

"Putting an animal on a leash is about conditioning not domestication."

Putting a an animal on a leash is about control, not conditioning. Domesticated animal accept being controlled some wild animals will tolerate being controlled to an extent.

"You can train a tiger to walk on leash much easier then you can train a house cat."

Personally I wouldnt try it with a tiger, I find that with persistance, and reward for accepting some loss of control to you, a housecat will walk on a leash to an extent, but only where they feel safer connected to you, not in familiar territory.

"On the other hand dogs take to leash's very easily but try to get a wolf on one."

Thats one of my points, dogs are domesticated, and decended from the gray wolf, dogs will accept a leash quickly but they have 135,000 years of living with and under the control of people, wolves are wild and take lots of trust and knowing that you are dominant over them to accept a leash partially.

"Monitors are very intelligent and obviously prone to conditioning."

Nowhere to the extent of a domesticated animal, heck on the subject of cats, look how tough they are to accept leashes, this is with 8000 years plus of living with people as captives.

"I'm sure they can be conditioned to except being put on leash. It might be a nuisance to them but I'm sure they deal with it."

The problem with stressing the monitor to accept being tied to a big predator that wants total control over them, it requires too much constant direct contact and the total loss of the ability to react naturally to the biggest threat to a monitor, something swooping down from the open sky. Thats why FR mentioned about leash monitors living a few years only.

" Putting a an animal on a leash is about control, not conditioning.'

This makes no sense the control comes from conditioning.

Tigers are much more excepting of leash training if properly conditioned from a young age as opposed to house cats.It's not even close. Lions even better. I've worked with both. Older animals are as Frank says set in their ways this is why they can't be trained. Trained as in conditioned. It's the direct opposite of dogs and wolves. Ever work with a wolf ?

Montiors become conditioned they do not look at you as big predator. It's because of being put on a leash monitors that live a few years only. No. It's because of the overall care the animal gets during the 99% of the time it's not on a leash.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

If you believe that husbandry methods including putting a lizard on a leash to show it off are not harmful, then by all means, do so, but you wont see that among my collection.
Oh by the way I know someone with 7 gray wolves, 3 originating from a licensed source in their care (they have the federal permits required) if needed they can put one at a time on a leash, but this was taught from a few weeks of age on as a temporary method to transport if all else fails. Also I know a local rescue that has some capable of being put on leashes (for the same reasons), a pretty well known zoo that supplies part of my "canine diet", they sometimes leash one or two of theirs for better control around the public.
Theres no comparison regardless of how much you reach for it of leashing a dog, and leashing a wild animal. Wild animal do not enjoy being leashed, and will never enjoy it, it stresses them.

[Wild animal do not enjoy being leashed, and will never enjoy it, it stresses them.]

You could say the same thing about them being in cages, no?
And yet we see 'some' thrive. We have to learn what stresses an 'individual' and what enriches it's captive existence. Better that, than lumping them all together under a blanket statement.

With out addressing the numerous points of contention . The point you fail to comprehend is that wild animals are just that wild. Captive animals are not wild. Intelligent animals lend themselves to conditioning. Losing their fear natural fear is part of that conditioning. A caged monitor responds differently then a wild monitor. They learn and think differently. Captive animals are not wild animals . Even wild monitors in developed areas lose their fear of humans to various degrees. In fact some learn to take advantage of people.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farms Inc.

Its way uncool. actually its more then uncool.

Dogs are domesticated animals trained to a leash.

Monitors are a wild animal forced to a leash.

There are a rare few. Ok, very very rare few monitors that this practice does not bother. Oh wait.

How many leashed monitors live a long life?????? Hmmmmmmmmmm I have not heard of ONE yet. For some silly reason, five years seems to be the max. For an animal that easily can live 15 to 20 years in captivity, thats pretty bad.

So yes, uncool.