Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone.
I am new to the herp world and have had immeasurable and phenomenal advice along the way.
In this, I've heard some conflicts to what I've been taught. I would like to open a discussion to hear what others think.

1. feed live or frozen? [Contrary to what I have learned, I have heard the argument; the only reason you feed frozen is for convenience. Animals however enjoy "a kill" and should be given live (at least once in a while) and “always” if the animal is off its feed.

2: Substrate-- what is the best for Kingsnakes? I have mine on Cyprus mulch but, have heard sand is better for kings.
What are the best substrates?

3. Tank size – what’s appropriate (lets say for a four foot snake)

4. Separate tanks vs. housed together?

5. Hides- how many should they have?

OK that’s all I can think of right now--- I look forward to hearing what you all have to say. Thank you.

>>1. feed live or frozen? >>
If the mice are of good quality, it should not matter much nutrtionally speaking. For the mental health of the snake, for example, does it crave hunting, I have no idea.

>>2: Substrate-- >>
Kings live in, well, soil. They spend most of their time in it, on it, among it. It prevents them from drying out, it provides shelter from predators, from bad weather and can offer warm and cool areas within a short vertical space. Many types of kings live in proximity to a water source, underground or otherwise, such that the soil is not bone dry underground. So that is nature. If you can provide those characteristics in captivity with something else or other methods, no problem. Whatever works. I like coir fiber mixed with some sand. Messy but effective. Most people like aspen (I think its too dry, but I live in a dry climate). Even paper can work.

>>3. Tank size – what’s appropriate (lets say for a four foot snake)>>
Oh man, more opinions here than you'll care to sift through. My opinion - larger cage filled will hiding opportunity. Then again, I know a guy that has kept a Cal king in a 10 gal tank for 23 years, so who knows.

>>4. Separate tanks vs. housed together?>>
Two camps here. I think multiple (with large enough caging) is a great method and enables behaviors one would not see when keeping these animals separate. But you just can't throw two adults in the same cage and expect success. In the wild, some kings will undoubtably seek and end up in the same areas, for example in Winter when they seek the a suitable location. And they will do this without hating on one another or eating one another into oblivion. Doing that in captivity gets them introduced to one another. Some may take to others very well but not all. Babies raised together are usually absolutely fine with one another. Also, they must be fed to their satisfaction. Not all species behave the same. Familiarity with the species is a must. It can and has been done. What I am finding out now is that people in the 70s were far more forward thinking with this idea than now. Now so many of us are afraid of letting snakes be snakes. It is a wonder how populations of kingsnakes still exist in the wild without our aspen and plastic boxes and separation. Yet they do. So there are conditions where kings do not eat one another into oblivion, or individuals who won't eat other kings they have some kind of bond or familiartity with. If you can provide that in captivity, then housing kings together can be done.

>>5. Hides- how many should they have?>>
As many as you can. A thick layer of soil is essentially one big hide. There are many ways to provide hides. The most common method of finding kings is under boards. That is a great clue as to what they also like in captivity. PVC pipe works extremely well. Think of going to kingsnake habitat, how many kings do you see out and about in relation to how many are hidden? Very very few.

It will be interesting to see where herpetoculture goes in the future. In 20 years if it is still legal to keep pet snakes, folks may have 300 snakes each in tiny clear plastic tubes and use artificial insemination to create "pure" strains of hypo ghost het for zig-zag this and that. Or we may see a move towards community cages and let the snakes choose preferred mates. Or we may see what we have now. Or a mixture of all of the above. What appeals to you?
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Mark

Boy oh boy. That was an in-depth answer that answered nothing. Holy cow I'm shocked. Oh and I'm not answering anything because the person writing this, was testing me. I know this person well. BAFM stands for Bad-A**-Football-Mom.

>>Boy oh boy. That was an in-depth answer that answered nothing. >>

You didn't think it was a good read? I thought it was well-written and informative (and answered nothing, lol).
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Mark

my opinion... frozen thawed rodents digest faster, therefor you can feed more often, and news paper is best (imo) i would keep a four foot rattle snake in a twenty gallon, they dont do anything, i keep a 4 foot false water in a 50 gal wide, it moves around alot. and for hides. snakes love hiding under the news paper (two birds with one stone). i may have forget a quistion but o well. mike
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1.0 dumirals boa
1.1 childrens pythons
1.0 woma python
2.2 hondurans
1.1 cal kings
0.1 baja king
1.1 black pines
1.1 rough scale sand boas
1.1 bay of la rosy's
0.1 ball python
1.1 heleri
0.0.1 crested gecko
1.0 yorkie
0.1 german shorthair
lots of fish
0.1 wife
1.0.1 children

LOL!! Hello Stape No not testing you - you are my source of "immeasurable and phenomenal advice" ... (and....yes,my use of acronyms
As newbie’s we have been exceedingly lucky in having someone patient enough to show us the ropes (which there are many and apparently varied)! This forum has proved all that has been taught. *It’s always good to listen to as many people as you can and then pick what is most logical. Don't you think?
Thank you everyone for your input.

What a nice attitude, thanks.
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Mark

The conflicts you hear in advice are due to the differences in opinions on husbandry of these animals. Some advice is good, some bad. It's all pretty much a matter of opinion though I'll give you my humble opinion on these subjects

(1. feed live or frozen? [Contrary to what I have learned, I have heard the argument; the only reason you feed frozen is for convenience. Animals however enjoy "a kill" and should be given live (at least once in a while) and “always” if the animal is off its feed.)
The main reason people suggest and swear by frozen or pre-killed is not only the convenience but safety of the snake. Rodents don't like being bitten and constricted so they fight back. Most of the time it's to no avail but sometimes the rodent gets lucky and can give a really nasty bite and a rodent bite is full of bacteria and will normally cause infection and a pretty heavy vet bill. Yet if you know that risk and are kind of sadistic and want to watch your snake kill it's prey than it's not any different than the snake having to do it in the wild. "NEVER leave a live rodent wandering in the cage it can potentially kill your snake" snakes are not too smart and will not kill the rodent to protect itself it will let the rodent gnaw on it and chew big chunks out of your snake. It's happened many, many times. Can't be too hard to find pictures online. Another reason is that the snake will become less aggressive interacting with you if it don't have to kill it's prey it's less likely to bite you with a mistaken feeding response if it don't have to kill.

2: Substrate-- what is the best for Kingsnakes? I have mine on Cyprus mulch but, have heard sand is better for kings.
What are the best substrates?
I totally agree with the guy that said sand is too dry for kingsnakes. Personally I find the best substrate in the world for almost everything to be newspaper. CHEAP!!, Easy to monitor fecal movements, Easy to clean, can help control humidity very well (dry or damp), and doubles for hiding for some that like burrowing under it.

3. Tank size – what’s appropriate (lets say for a four foot snake)
This is a species specific question. Depends on the species of the snake. Some species need more room than others. A smaller black racer will need more room than a constrictor larger than the racer. A kingsnake would need an enclosure that the length of the snake isn't longer than the length plus width of the cage.

4. Separate tanks vs. housed together?
This is a question that will cause alot of conflict in advice how you've put it. Alot of keepers especially in here will totally advise against it. The reasons are fairly obvious. One possible cannibalism, others being mainly health specific reasons. If one gets sick they both get sick, If a sign of one being sick is left in the habitat you don't know which is sick first. On the other hand it's no more a risk than the animal living in the wild. If you're willing to take the risk than it's truly your business if you know the possible risks involved. Kingsnakes are highly ophiophagus (snake eaters). If you take that risk of keeping them together. As nature sees it you may possibly end up with one fat snake rather than two snakes.

5. Hides- how many should they have?
I hear alot of people advise against a habitat that's too large for the snake. I find that kind of redundant beings the snakes true habitat is the face of this planet. Only agreement I would have would be it being harder to monitor the snakes health to quickly find regurgitated food items or fecal movements. Many claim it will stress the snake having too large a habitat. That won't happen if the animal feels secure (Plenty of places to hide). I agree with the guy that said as many as possible. You will find the snake will do best if it has a choice of hiding places throughout the habitat even if it chooses one mainly. You don't want the snake to choose between safety and comfort (humidity and temperature). I normally stuff paper towels in smaller hides and newspaper in larger hides to allow the snake to feel secure in the hide. It really don't do a tiny snake as much good as you'd think offering them a hide they lay under and don't actually feel secure. When they feel the paper towel or newspaper surrounding their body that helps make them feel safe.

I really hope I helped in some way to answer your questions. And remember that the differences in opinion are just that, just another opinion. Some are educated differences and some are uneducated differences. You just have to use your better judgment to decipher which is which.

THANK YOU!!!! This was fantastic and very sound advice!