Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi guys,
This little female was the result from last years breeding of a sinaloan pair I have just bought. Both adults look normal sinaloan but this girl doesnt.
What do you think?
Thanks, Dan Murison

-----
Lampropeltis triangulum lover!!

Looks like they have some campbelli in them. Can you post pics of the parents?
Thanks

That would explain the hypo in this guy! Oh well! Guess I'm going to have to get a cosala to replace him. Still keep me updated on the progress of your hypos!

that does not look like full sinaloan to me..

~ Mike Russo

Hey Dan,

That does not look like pure sinaloae to me. I would like to see pics of the parents.

Dave

DNS Reptiles

You've gotta quit posting those Cosala, Sinaloa animals! You're going to make me break down and buy a group of them!

-Cole

Golden, CO

group of Cosalas

-----
“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

atleast, that's what I heard..

I saw that beast advertised... and had to tie my clicking hand behind my back to keep from making an impulse purchase! Space, space, space...

-Cole

It's unreal how RED those things are.

-Cole

Hey Cole...don't hold back...you won't regret it!!

DNS Reptiles

You guys suck! I can't believe you'd torture me like that. Wait, yes I can...

Those things are amazing. Pure and simple.

-cole

Right, Finally collected them tonight. From what I can see the female looks to be the intergrade out of the pair.(Bit peed off)

Heres the female

Heres the male (I like him alot)

What you guys think? Either way think the females going to be sold, so is the hatchling. Got the trio for £100 so not too bothered.

Thanks guys.
Danny in Snowy England
-----
Lampropeltis triangulum lover!!

Hey Dan,

I would agree with you the female doesn't look pur sinaloae at all..campbelli influence it looks like to me. The male looks much more like sinaloae.

Dave

The Male looks like 100% Sinaloan to me. I don't know what the female is, not full Sinaloan though in my opinion..

~ Mike Russo

no post
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Dan,
I have a rescue that looks alot like that in terms of band width and bandcount -

Found in a cage in an abandoned house, tag said "Sinaloan milk" on the tank. The owner had bought the snake and tank from a local reptile store. I went there, asked around, and of course got no info. Then I see some mislabeled crossed milks in a cage there.

A guess is you have a cross with Pueblan. Just a guess. I think that is what mine is.

-----
Mark

But then some will say that these are not an intergrade or hybrid because they pretty much share the same ancestry/geneology. Care to check out the greeri fiasco on the kingsnake forum?

It's EXACTLY this thread as to why i stand for not crossing species, or for that matter, ssp altogether in order to avoid such circumstances. The past is the past, and natural selection will continue on long after us. But our charges (what we have under captive conditions) need to continue to be represented as it is NOW without the rationalization of "what was" in order to create unnatural, and yes I said UNNATURAL, crosses or hybrids.

Sure, maybe a genetic remnant will be expressed phenotypically now and then and it will be questioned or maybe even "oooh'ed" and "ahhhh'ed" at depending on the observer, but to justify such creations because of "what used to be" is ridiculous in my opinion.

And then some choose to criticize that we don't offer enough in captivity -- fine. But where does our responsibility ultimately begin and end in captivity? If greeri, or any snake for that matter, has a generalized phenotypic representation NOW, why not continue that? Granted, some line breed to enhance/develop traits that would not normally be seen in wild specimens, BUT, to take TWO SEPARATE SSP OF GETULA, for example, AND CROSS THEM AND JUSTIFY IT by saying they share history? Again, look at this very posting and tell me that this is not frustrating not only for the owner but also NO ONE can really be sure EXACTLY what it is.

YEAH........"hooray" for hybridization and cross-breeding.
-----
Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Yep, I am just going to start selling everything as central,southern or North American milk.And all the rest wil be mexicanana.

LOL....

It's so painful to even consider the loss of integrity for ssp categorization. Nature has honed this differentiation and we go and muck it up. What's interesting is that we see in many hybrids but much moreso, I think, in a cross is that you have some "play" in being able to tease out what the combination could be. Interesting also how the two sub-specific genotypes are strong enough to show through and indicate that there is more than one thing going on. What more evidence do you need?!?! Yeah maybe Pueblans and Sinaloans, por ejemplo, mingled eons ago, BUT it's not what's going on now and my position is to maintain the integrity of the sub-specificity. I hate to argue and hem 'n' haw with some, but imagine herpetoculture in 50 years if this mindset takes shape. So much for individuality between the spp, but rather (as you'd stated ninja) having simply North, Central, and South American milks. Sad. And although I very much doubt vertebrate zoology would accept this notion, imagine anyway.

Your thoughts?
-----
Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Thanks for confirming it guys. I wont be breeding from her. Im going to try find her (and the sibling) a home where they will be kept as a pet. If I cant find them a home as a pet then they'll be kept and not bred with.

Its getting annoying over here in England. I believe as we have had less variety and choice of L.triangulum in the past, it has made people cross breed and produce intergrades more often. Now we have better access to American stock and more people gain interest in L.triangulum I hope things turn for the better, not worse.

Regards
Danny
-----
Lampropeltis triangulum lover!!

Dan,

how are things over the pond? Haven't been there since 2006 and I'm beginning to miss afternoon tea. We have a couple places here in NYC that try to recreate the experience, AND are owned by folk from the UK, but it only comes close.

Obtaining another Sinaloan should not be a problem as there are many that offer beautiful examples of that triangulum. It's refreshing to hear someone express the good sense it makes to not intentionally cross species or sub-species (with exception of naturally-occuring intergrades of course), and try to make some effort towards preservation of the integrity of specific and sub-specific groups. We can argue all we like and make excuses that breeding true is "boring", but the bottom line is that the hobby will get real screwy if we can't tell one thing from another anymore. And what would potential consequences be? First thing off the top of my head would be the removal of wild specimens to compensate from the non-sense crossings/hybridizations from years past. Some folk will eventually just get fed up enough and seek their own specific animals from the field. My statements may "sound" far-fetched, but even while this mindset has not become the norm, the future may hold some interesting times with regard to the legal aspect alone of keeping reptiles (yet another huge issue...).

This past year alone, I have observed a number of issues with regard to utter confusion as to what certain individuals actually had. Such specimens have included alterna, thayeri, mex-mex, micropholis, blanchardi, sinaloae, and campbelli . . . I'm sure there have been more but the instances I have seen just in this past year are clear examples of tainted lines likely due to crossing/hybridizing. The one that probably killed me the most was learning that the micropholis currently being offered are actually NOT true micros, but rather a crossing of micropholis x andesiana. I have been waiting for true micros for as long as I can remember, but knowing what I know now.......I wouldn't be interested. But that's just me, as some people feel they may very well be the same milksnake. I beg to differ, and will always have that extra space if and when a true Ecuadorian milk becomes available. We missed that boat a long time ago -- and now with the U.S. having a closed door relationship with a number of countries, obtaining true specimens remains bleak at best.

Lastly, I'd had the opportunity to reclaim Pueblans a couple years ago from a friend that I'd given them to prior to entering graduate academia. These animals changed hands and wound up as display animals in an educational mimicry exhibit at an aquarium here in NY. I worked my butt off to reclaim this pair of 12 year-old Pueblans because I'd learned that they were F4 descendants of wild, locale-specific campbelli brought in from Mexico circa 1985. How did I learn this? I happen to be friends with the fellow who actually brought these animals into the U.S. and had recently re-confirmed this fact several weeks ago. Needless to say that I am ecstatic about the old blood I have reacquired, and have every intention seeking out other older specimens to try and mix some other original blood into the line. No worries of Honduran or any other sort of influence whatsoever in these. But had i not been able to do this, I likely would have avoided acquiring Pueblans as far too many have demonstrated unusual traits that scream something other than true campbelli.

Okay, now go and pass it on . . .
-----
Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

At the moment its either snowy or pissing down with rain here....great. Flash flooding down my area. Afternoon tea, thats the life.
All the lamps are out of cooling now so things should start getting exciting again. It should be easy for me to find a female sinaloae but whether it has any nelsoni influence is a different agrgument all togther.
Good luck acquiring the campbelli, sounds an exciting project. It must be so much more fulfilling knowing you produce something true & pure, Although I admit I do love the excitement of not knowing what my hondos are going to throw out year in year out.

All the best, Danny
-----
Lampropeltis triangulum lover!!