Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is the link of the news story that ran tonight about nelson's new bill proposal. Please everybody we need to do stand together
Link

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www.wreckroomsnakes.com

Of course the guy trying to ban it is democrat.(no offense to other democrats)

Democrat or Republican this is a serious issue that had been going on for a very long time. That statement has no relevancy to the issue at hand.

The politicians are not to blame here. There are multiple issues here.

1.The importation of these animals floods the market. Leading to the price of these animals to be very cheap. $20/snake

2. Breeders/importers selling these animals to anyone. Not educating the buyer. This is extremely irresponsible. No matter what you think the buyer should do on his own you should not be selling a Burm to a 13 year old kid as a first snake.

3. Uneducated Buyer not knowing what to do with his snake who has just grown 5 feet in a year. Not sure how to fix this one once the buyer owns the animal. Government funded rescues maybe?

I'll tell you what, If I were in the government and I continuously was told that the population of these animals was disrupting the eco system that was in my state. I would think about a ban also. Can't blame them.

What we as a community need to do is not just fight this thing but to come up with answers to the problem. There needs to be more control in this industry. Especially when these animals are thriving in this non-indigenous environment.

Thoughts?

I agree 100 % with snakeman. WHAT is the best way for us, as an industry / community to express our concerns? Can WE find someone who is willing to take in our plight and fight for us?

Alan
1.1 Pastel
1.0 Spider
0.2 Normals

These peoples scientific ignorance aside.....Do we really even NEED to import more reptiles? If the left it at the international level but let us all breed/buy/sell etc interstate do we not have enough breeders set up here already to fullfill our supply/demand?

Pros: No more parasite infested reptiles from chain pet stores that get all theirs WC anyway.

Cons: No way for big time breeders to get that newly dicovered morph foun in a burrow or rainforest.

Dont get me wrong Im not for the legislation this just popped into my head this morning.
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"What are you afraid of? What ever it is, it's here. That and things your little irrational mind couldn't even dream of."

First both PIJAC and USARK are addressing these issues and HAVE BEEN FOR SOME TIME. I know because I've been directly and indirectly invloved. Before anyone says "your an importer" and are predudiced, I'm NOT an importer, just concerned and trying to help. Instead of fighting amongst ourselves we NEED to join one or better BOTH organizations NOW. THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT THE BURMESE POPULATION BOOMED POST HURRICANE ANDREW. This was a natural disaster that no one had any control of. Further more the powers that be are well maware that these snakes are ALL RELATED GENETICALLY FROM DNA STUDIES. The entire movement is based on STOPPING THE PRIVATE SECTOR FROM KEEPING ANY AND ALL HERPS IN CAPTIVITY BY THE HSUS AND OTHERS. If you think it will stop at banning imports you are gravely mistaken. If there has ever been a time for us to join together as one voice it is NOW. Please join these organizations and help fight for your business and/or hobby.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

" THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT THE BURMESE POPULATION BOOMED POST HURRICANE ANDREW."

The question that will probably be asked is why where there so many burmese pythons in the first place that cuased the "Population Boom"...See what I am saying...

I heard the during the "Boom" of Burmese production, that breeders where breeding Hundreds upon Hundreds of burmese pythons....One breeder was said to have produced 750 Burmese Pythons and wholesaled them all...The question will be "Is there really a need for so many to be produced"...this hobby has gone TOTALLY unregulated or self checked for so long, and it still is...Retics have now taken the place of Burmese...

I will say it again...If we don't peer pressure fellow herpetoculturists and push them to take more care in how many they produce and who they sell them too, someone is going to control it for us...

I totally understand your thought process of "we have to stand together and fight, and not fight amoungst ourselves"....but If breeders of Large Constrictors, Venomous Reptiles, ect..ect..don't control themselves and self regulate themselves...someone is going to do it for ALL OF US...and I don't work with Burmese or Retics or Venomous....But me as a Ball Python Keeper and Breeder will be affected...

All I ask is that we as herpetoculturists do more to educate, and do whatever they can to monitor themeselves...the mass production of animals and the selling to just anyone has got to stop...or it will be the downfall of this hobby...It has to be controlled somehow...either by us...or the government...

Thats just my thoughts on it...I am very selective on what I pair up with what, and how many clutches I produce...I also am very careful of who I sell things too. Its not worth it to me to hand over an animal I produced to someone who will hurt the very hobby I am so passionate about. It would be nice to see some non-law maid trends happen, like pushing fellow keepers to have an age limit...you have to be 18 to buy a Burmese or Retic or Venomous...Maybe take a few extra minutes and ask if they have kept them before, are the willing and able to properly house them and feed them, do they have access to rabbits in a year or so...ect..ect.. These are simple things sellers can do to help self regulate...I am not saying that people Don't do this already...but I think it should be pushed...that way we are not looked at like people who mass produce "Dangerous" snakes and sell them to just anyone over the internet. We can say we all are doing everything in our power to limit these snakes getting in the wrong hands...

The problem is...the more that are produced, the more chances that they will end up in the wrong hands...I am afraid of what we will see in another 10-15 years with the retics...as they are seeing the "Morph" boom that the Burmese saw 10-15 years ago...I wonder how all those retics will affect our hobby.
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I would agree. There definitely needs to be something done about the large constrictors just for the simple fact of how large and powerful they are. A full grown burmese, retic, anaconda has the potential to kill a person. Anything like that should not be as easy to obtain as going to a reptile show or pet store and handing over a small chunk of change. I know this is an unfair analogy, but imagine if you could just go to a cat show and come home with a tiger or leopard cub.

The problem with large constrictors, is that I think any regulation would drive the trade of them underground. Even if permits or whatever else would be required, it would be very easy for someone with a pair of burmese to sell them to whoever they wanted.

Self regulation would be great, only that will never happen. There will always be irresponsible people out there. And I'm going to say that there are already too many people out there breeding the large constrictors. There are not as many people that SHOULD be buying them as are produced. But how do you regulate that?

So what's the solution. Ban them all together would work, but that's not fair to the responsible owners. Maybe some sort of regulations with very harsh penalties would work? I mean as of right now, what would happen to someone in Florida who doesn't have have a permit or their burmese micro chipped? Perhaps the sale of these animals should be highly regulated with harsh penalties. I don't know.

We where contacted by a local guy looking for a "Snake"...He didn't care what kind...that sent up red flag for me, I asked him some questions, come to find out he just wanted a cool pet he could show off to his friends and he could show his friends how it killed things...no kidding, he was very upfront about it. I kindly said we where sold out (even though we hadn't) Later that month, I see the same guy at the local show, and what is he walking out the door with A baby Reticulated Python...I said hello and asked him a few questions just for curiousity...he had two small children..I mean Young Children...lived in an Apartment...and hadn't even gotten the enclosure set up for it yet...The guy he purchased it from didn't ask any questions, infact the guy that bought it said the seller didn't know much about retics, and that he had gotten it in on a trade. I just hope that nothing happens in that situation, and causes issues in my area from it. It was that easy for a young guy to slap down some cash and walk away with a problem....You know that in less than a years time he will be looking to sell or give it away...It happens ALL the time...they just get too big to fast...its hard to find good homes for large constrictors.
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Its not that unusual at all actually. But lets tell the story as if it was someone buying Fido at the store. A great dane looks cool as a puppy but gets huge since your living in an apartment. Happens with ALL animals people keep as pets. Its just a fact of life.
Difference is one is "alternative" to the domestic cat or dog.
People buy Parrots with no info all the time and get rid of them, same with dogs, cats, reptiles, fish, small mammals....its all the same, we are being singled out cause we are the weakest in the animal industry.
Its not for banning burmese pythons, its for banning PYTHONS of all species.
The snakes in the glades are easily caught by the bag full if they would just let normal herpers looking for a good time just catch them and give them to park rangers. I know DOZENs OF PEOPLE THAT would do that for free and I am 20 minutes from the park. Also us being a store, we have not sold NORMAL burmese in over 4 years. The only ones we sold have been albinos and albino greens. Th "pet" burms in the glades are the leftovers from roadside attractions that got demolished by andrew. Simple as that and fact!

I agree with what you said...

But just to add, Insurance Companies will make you pay more if you have certain types of dogs, certain cities require you to have a permit for certain types of dogs. And some Cities have down right banned Pit Bull Terriers now, because to many idiots own them and breed them crap out of them.

Anacris which is a common pet store plant that is sold for aquariums is banned in our area because its now growing wild in the lakes and ponds.

Just like with anything, the more something is produced the more the chance for issues and problems arises...

It comes down to our problem really...if you go back...The Burmese Python would only exist in this country in the form of Boots and handbags if it wasn't for Herpetoculture...not to bash myself...but I contributed to the Burmese Craze, I purchased one...I own one...But I don't have plans to breed it...If I did, I would have a hard time contiously selling the offspring to people...its hard to find good/proper homes for them. My problem is when the supply out numbers the demand...and becuase of the alure of the high dollar amounts people breed more than they really should...Thats where self control comes in...

Mass breeding of Cornsnakes or Ball Pythons is a different story, those can be kept by just about anybody...but not everybody can keep a Retic or Burmese...They are not the best pets for everyone...Just like venomous is not for everyone...

All I am asking is for those working with Burmese, Retics, to be a little more aware of how what there doing affects the hobby, we are all in this together...but if the species I was working with was under fire and being looked at as part of the problem, and could potentially shut down the rest of the hobby. I think I would be doing everything in my power to avoid selling to the wrong people, and possibly taking a second and thinking...do I really need to produce that many Reticulated or Burmese Pythons this year? It benefits the breeder in the long run to limit the amount of offspring they produce, especially if its high dollar morphs...

But its become the race to produce as many as possible as fast as possible to cash in the most amount before other flood the market....leaving a BUNCH of yearling retics whos "market" has tanked out...and where do they all go? There are not enough rescues or places that can take them...

I just wish I saw more proactive approach to Retic and Burm breeding...rather than hyping and mass producing...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

you do realize that more then 60% are exported overseas......
why do you think there is a shortage of alot of morphs? You cannot judge the classifieds as a tell all sign that there is hundreds out there, there are dozens of repeat ads and sometimes the same snake being sold by different people....also tons of brokers selling the same animals from the big breeder whom sells a bunch if not most overseas. I know of two retic breedrs that sold ALL their 300 offspring overseas.
Your judging the overabundance of burms or retics on an overbundance that does not exist. I cannot go right now and buy 20 albino retics wholesale cause there ISNT ANY, lol. Hell I cannot go buy a clutch of REGULAR retics right now or burms, maybe im not looking hard enough? But I cant find any....could use about 100 albino burms right now though, lol.
Also, the bill is to ban every python not just burms or retics, this means balls, bloods, CHILDRENS, ant hills, carpets, bh;s, womas, scrubs, olives, dalberts, dwarf retics, dwarf burms, etc etc
there is a permit system in florida already in place and I can attest that people are too lazy to get it and thus dont even bother buying them. Cause one the stores themselves(except us, we sell them online) dont want to bother with the hassle nor do the customers.

So there were no Berms in the Everglades before the Hurricane? This problem has been going on for a long time. Anyone that blames this non indigenous snake being in the Everglades to a Hurricane is the mindset that makes me think that the government should step in. And if that means a trade is snuffed out to save one of the most beautiful natural parks on the planet then let it be done.

Your making a broad statement based on what information or simply speculation on your part? The fact is that in FACT a breeding population of Burmese Pythons DID NOT exist until post Hurricane Andrew. I am privy to a lot of info about these invasive snakes and many other invasive flora and fauna here in Florida. The DNA studies have PROVEN all thse snakes are related and from very few snakes. That is NOT speculation but fact. Secondly there are tens of thousands of them and they will NEVER be eradicated without paving over the entire 4,000 plus square miles of the Everglades Wilderness Area. It has yet to be proved what, if any, debilitating enviromental effect they will have. Two endangered Key Largo Wood Rats are known to have been eaten but a LOT of wild feral cats have been found in the bellies as well. These cats do FAR MORE damage than the Pythons. I personally have noticed a paucity of small mammels [marsh rabbits etc] which is definitely detrimental IF the Pythons are responsible. Telemetry studies have shown that these Pythons can move fairly long distances for snakes in a relatively short time. One male snake moved about 20 miles in less than two weeks.Whether they are outlawed or not they are here to stay. The entire Burmese Python issue is being used by various special interest groups to take away EVERYONES right to have anything. That is the real agenda. Watch PBS this September in a yet to be titled program on the REAL facts surrounding the Burmese Python invasion of the Everglades...Again it is a time to come together as one without throwing out blame and speculation...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom -- do you think it's possible that instead of a "breeding population" we may just have had a few gravid girls get loose - or do they have substantial evidence indicating breeding in the wild?
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Tosha, unfortunately these snakes are INCREDIBLY COMMON. I see one just about once a week near my farm which is only about 2 miles from the Everglades National Park Entrance. I could take you you collecting and guarantee we could find at least one over a 3 day period. They are definitely reproducing and increasing in numbers at an alarming rate. There will be a point where this will cease as checks and balances of nature come into play but the population hasn't reached that level yet. As I have said earlier they are now a part of our herpetofauna FOREVER. It would be IMPOSSIBLE to eradicate them so passing restrictive laws are essentially worthless and everyone involved is well aware of this. I'm in aggreement that more care should be exercized on selling large potentially dangerous boids to the public. For one thing I feel sorry for the snake as the owner very soon will not or can not give it proper care. That is my biggest concern as they are only a threat to the owner and when someone is killed or injured it's natural selection at work. Of course the bad P.R. hits and affects the entire industry in a negative fashion. This legislation is simply being pushed by radical animal rights groups as a means to stop the private sector from having ANY TYPE of reptile period. As far as a true ecological threat to the Everglades it is still unknown as what the long term effect will have if any at all. The stomach contents of wild snakes have yeilded a variety of small mammels and birds with very few rare species of any kind. Also a LOT of wild feral cats have been documented as being eaten which is great as they are a more dangerous threat than the Pythons to native wildlife. Because these snakes eat infrequently and for parts of the year not at all I'm not sure how much damage they will do long term. The worst thing I've noticed is a seemingly reduction of small mammels [racoons, marsh rabbits, etc] and this could have a negative effect on other small predators if their food source is depleted. It is unknown whether the Pythons are responsible for this or if it's just a natural cycle taking place. But to answer your question, YES, THEY ARE BREEDING AND THRIVING HERE UNFORTUNATELY...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I cannot agree with that statement at all. I just can't. Kill, eradicate, and remove the entire species of Burms, and problem solved.

I so see your point that your trying to get at... defend and fight for ball pythons (and other pythons that don't have a record and "have a valid argument with", and let the government have the Burmese pythons and large constrictors that have caused the problems in the first place.

But it doesn't work like that. Legislation and the minds of the representatives are NOT going to work like that. This bill, if passed, will be very black and white. You cannot pick a gray area and say I'm on the team with this type of snake but not on the team with that type of snake. Nelson doesn't want to end JUST Burmese pythons, he wants to end it ALL. Advocating against Burms and for Balls isn't going to help in the long run. The bill will keep coming back re-written and revised. If Burmese Pythons go down, its only a matter of time before Balls go down too.

Maybe its just me, but your should think about your angle of the fight too. I'm pretty sure that's what jyohe was talking about too.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

and they'll take it all.....

......permits for this and that......they'll say ok...then ok, ban JUST this...then it will be so much easier for them to kill us all when they get a foot in the door.....

don't let the door open.......

......too many rules now......
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.....................................
...JY

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Joyce, If we cannot fix the problem inside of the reptile community how can you argue when the government wants to step in?

It makes absolute sense to me. If there was a trade of a top predator that impacted human life directly you better believe no one would have a problem with swift strong laws.

You may be fighting a cause from the wrong angle. What I say is try and save the bill from focusing on snakes such as BP's which you have a valid argument with.

Just my 2cents.

who the well is Joyce?.........

......

.......I stand with give them little as possible...I know they are gonna pass laws, everywhere....

I personally stopped them from laws and permits here in my hometown.....yes...I alone.....didn't take much to let them know they knew absolutely nothing...and it would happen anyways (underground was the word used).....

anyways......

JOYCE who?...................................
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.....................................
...JY

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Simmer down Joyce, take your medicine.

We are in this together, Joyce.

Ha!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

not fully together,I work for my money...LOL...
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.....................................
...JY

.

The Nelson bill, S373, is not just to ban the import of pythons. It is also to ban interstate transport of the genus python.

So under this bill, you would not be able to transport a ball python from Michigan to Idaho. Does that make sense? No.

I'm not sure what the remedy is for the burmese python problem in the Everglades, but this is not it. Because south Florida has a problem, and that is the only place these snakes can live, we all get penalized? Doesn't make sense. Andrew Wyatt nailed it when he said

"There is no credible evidence to suggest that passing this bill will do anything to help the Everglades, which is the only place there is a problem with pythons in the entire country. Passing a federal law to address a south Florida issue is like curing a mosquito bite with an amputation."

My personal opinion is that it is too late for the Everglades. The only way to stop the burmese python population would be to capture every single one of them, and I'm pretty sure that will never happen.

As I documented in the Law and Cites forum anti ownership organizations are heavily tied to the Democrats. Activist groups bank roll politicians who support their ideas . They cleaned up this past election and that's not good for private collectors.

South Florida is already home to 2000 non native species. I'm sure Nelson is aware that No legislation , restoration program or anything will ever bring the ecological balance as it was intended by Mother Nature back. Beyond the establishment of invasive's are the issues of water quality (the foundation of life) and natural habitat. Both of these areas have been severely compromised past the point of restoration.

Targeting a high profile species and pointing the finger at specific a group amounts to nothing more then a fund raising drive by those working from a self serving agenda. I don't think anyone has a problem with wanting to clean up the population of Burmese pythons that exist in the glades, but to use skewed data and sensationalized propaganda regarding a localized issue as a platform to attack all private owners on a national level is morally corrupt. It's very important for everyone with an interest in private ownership to speak up in opposition .

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.
WSTWOOD ACRES REPYTILE FARM INC

So I guess we as a society and the environmental groups should just fold and allow all hell to break loose? Is this what your suggesting because thats what it sounds like.

I just don't get how someone can deflect the issues and try and put blame on a political party for speaking up for an obvious problem. Seems like sour grapes that your party has failed this country for the last 8 years and the people have spoken that what was in office was not working. Its what we have heard from Republicans since the election was over. This country does not need this. Stop fighting the system and come together for god sakes.

Its obvious that the Democratic party feel strongly about conserving the environment. Why would you fight this? Unless you just don't care about the actual animals and their environment. Which by the way is our environment also.

It's not about sour grapes it's about education.

" Its obvious that the Democratic party feel strongly about conserving the environment. "

That's what they like people to believe. Your way off base in your understanding. The environment is nothing more then political tool . The Democratic party used this tool in the same way that Peta uses animal rights. To generate funding and support from the uninformed. Excepting filtered funding and support from criminal anti ownership groups , ones that have direct ties to domestic terrorism in exchange for future considerations has nothing to do conserving the environment. Go green sounds nice. Catchy. But what does it really mean. Billions of dollars in revenue for it's supporters and ultimately nothing in terms of wildlife preservation.

Stop fighting the system ? How about stop letting lobbyist and the media control our destiny . Do you think the everglades deal is about Burmese pythons and environmental restoration ? If it were only that simple. The everglades is cash cow . There is a lot of money at stake.

The only thing I'm suggesting is that people educate themselves about the backgrounds and associates of those they support. Look past the superficial idealistic conceptions or misconceptions. Learn a little bit more about some of these " environmental groups " and what they really do.

Anti ownerships laws and trade restrictions will not solve the problem. They will only serve as feel good diversionary legislation supported by corrupted science while the environmental massacre proceeds with gusto.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Most animal related legislation (and a lot of other legislation as well!) has very little to do with science or logic. Herpers tend to get caught up with the illogic and unfairness of the whole thing. But all of that matters very little to those pushing the legislation.

The "humaniacs" (PETA, HSUS, and others) are well funded groups with a mission to end use of animals for ANY reason - pets, food, seeing eye dogs, whatever. Lucky for them that most of their financial supporters don't realize that the leaders of these groups would also ban their cute puppies and kittens if they could. That is their eventual goal. But it is much easier for them to go after groups such as reptile keepers first. Lots of "normal" people would just as soon see our hobby / industry disappear. We are an easy target. They care nothing about science and logic - they will use whatever sensationalistic means they can to advance their agenda.

The politicians mostly care about getting re-elected, or about getting more money and / or power for their particular agency. HSUS and similar groups wield more power and money than a bunch of herp breeders. And the "normal" constituency can easily be manipulated by sensationalism to believe that illogical, feel - good, legislation will actually accomplish something.

It is all about power, money, and emotions. It has nothing to do with science and logic. If I sounded jaded and disgusted with politics and government, it is because I really am. I wrote my first letter to the government about injurious wildlife legislation when it was first proposed a long time ago - maybe around 1972? Hard to remember. And have been hoping (and fighting for) my chosen hobby and business to avoid becoming a government casualty ever since. I became a Libertarian a long time ago.

I only hope to stave off disaster for the near future. I have little hope for the next generation to enjoy much freedom of choice as my generation did. It is a shame. I am truly tired of it.

>>> Stop fighting the system and come together for "good" sakes.

I already posted this, but I'm reposting it. You need to read this, even if a couple times: I so see your point that your trying to get at... defend and fight for ball pythons (and other pythons that don't have a record and "have a valid argument with", and let the government have the Burmese pythons and large constrictors that have caused the problems in the first place.

But it doesn't work like that. Legislation and the minds of the representatives are NOT going to work like that. This bill, if passed, will be very black and white. You cannot pick a gray area and say I'm on the team with this type of snake but not on the team with that type of snake. Nelson doesn't want to end JUST Burmese pythons, he wants to end it ALL. Advocating against Burms and for Balls isn't going to help in the long run. The bill will keep coming back re-written and revised. If Burmese Pythons go down, its only a matter of time before Balls go down too.

>>>Its obvious that the Democratic party feel strongly about conserving the environment. Why would you fight this? Unless you just don't care about the actual animals and their environment. Which by the way is our environment also.

I am left-wing. Extremely left wing, further left than a democrat... I just wanted to get that out there so you don't think I'm just arguing against democrats and for republicans... But you need to really start reading up. Burmese Pythons aren't a real "environmental issue." There's enough scientific studies and evidence to prove that. ALL HELL IS NOT BREAKING LOOSE. You need to pick a side, man. Your angle isn't going to work. Listen to Tom. Seriously.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

is why they want to introduce such a broad,sweeping ban on the entire trade! unless i misunderstand, they are proposing to eliminate all pythons, anacondas etc. now i don't support a ban on any of these though i do see a need for some form of regulation. but tell me how ball pythons and so many other types of reptiles are an invasive species and furthermore whats to stop boa constrictors from migrating on the own from south and central america into the southern regions of north america.

I hate to go this route...but why haven't they passed some sort of "Population control" bill...like they did with Wild pigs.
$10 a skin or something...

Use the meat to feed the homeless. Invasive snake problem is solved, as well as feeding some people.

Just ideas.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)