Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Tom,Please tell all of us that want to defend our right to own reptiles what the real story on Pythons & Boas ect in the Everglades is.Sen.Nelson D of Fl.as you know is trying to pass restrictive rulls based on emotion other than Science and most of all other than the TRUTH.You know the Everglades,you know reptiles and their abillity to servive in Florida.What is the truth about,Why they cant be found and delt with? They get BIG,you see them you"take them out" We all want someone that knows the real story so we can be consistant in our responce as to why this is a bad law that punishes everyone for the offences of a few.Thanks for your time in advance.Vic Morgan........pic "they will be after me next" live free or die-out"

Facts About Burmese Pythons as an Invasive Species

1. It is a South Florida Issue- Burmese Pythons as a feral and Invasive Species are Endemic to South Florida below Lake Okeechobee only. They do not exist anywhere else in the US. Florida Fish & Wildlife Commission has taken steps to limit further introductions.

2. Not Released By Pet Owners- According to the Genetics Study presented to the South Florida Water Management District (SFWMD) by Florida International University & the National Park Service, the vast majority of Burmese Pythons sampled come from identical genetic stock. This population of pythons was NOT introduced over time by irresponsible pet owners. It points to a mass introduction; possibly Hurricane Andrew in 1992.

3. Will Not Spread out of South Florida- The US Geologic Survey (USGS) Map Published in 2008, illustrating the spread of Burmese Pythons over the southern third of the US, has been characterized as ‘Junk Science’ by many in the Herpetological Community. It has been rebutted and contradicted by more objective studies. The only place in the country that has the proper climate is S. FL & S. TX, but only S. FL has the necessary habitat.

4. Federal BAN Won’t Work- There is No Credible Scientific Evidence that passing Federal Legislation Banning the Import and Trade of Boas & Pythons will have any affect whatsoever on the feral Burmese Python population in the Everglades. It would be costly and impossible to enforce.

Large serpents such as that are considered top predators. As such they have few natural enemies. Therefore, they show no fear in being fully exposed to their environment as they move about.

Snakes like that just haven't met the automobile yet. But when they do, they are doomed to become nothing more than big speed bumps.

Since almost all large apex serpents have already been exterminated within the Continental United States by man's activities, I see no reason this tropical newcomer will fare any better.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John, you are correct about cars BUT the entire Evergaldes Wilderness Area has only a few roads giving access so roadkill is NOT a significant threat to their survival. In many ways the Everglades is the LEAST accessable National Park because of a paucity of roads and the inability to hike in it because the majority of it is partially flooded always and in the rainy season all of it is flooded. To walk one mile under conditions in the Everglades would be like a 5 mile hike anywhere else. The terrain is nigh impossible to move around in. That is but one reason these snakes will NEVER be eradicated. I, and other experts know that these conditions in both habitat and climate only occur here in Florida from the southern shore of Lake Okeechobee south and they will never be able to survive anywhere else in the U.S. They are NOT a national problem but a local problem already addressed and regulated by the Florida Wildlife Commission and there is NO need for further regulation.....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Andrew, that as always, is well stated and right to the point. If everyone responds in their own words using your excellent abstract of facts we will prevail. CONGRATS ON A GREAT JOB...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Vic, first these snakes are here to stay. By their own admission there are tens of thousands established in the 4,000 plus square mile Everglades Wilderness Area. This includes far more area than just the National Park including the Big Cypress National Preserve, Fakahatchee State Preserve, etc. Secondly the DNA studies show that ALL these snakes originated from a few animals and are all related. Third until post Hurricane Andrew there were NO reproducing populations of Burmese Pythons anywhere in Florida. This bill and propaganda statements concerning damage they will do is not based on science but simply imflammatory speculation to scare the public at large in order to get support and votes. The idea that these snakes will move south 75 miles to Big Pine Key and eat the diminutive Key Deer is ridiculous. Big Pine is about 75 miles south of the mainland located in the Florida straits. The current that runs btween Florida and Cuba joining the Gulf of Mexico with the Atlantic Ocean is so swift these snake NOR anything else other than Manatees and Crocodiles have ever been able to colonize Florida. That is why we have NO West Indian herps here in Fl.[Epicrates, Tropidophis, Cyclura, etc.] because herps found in Cuba only 90 miles fom Key West would thrive here could they reach Florida by natural means. There is only one road to Big Pine [U.S. ONE] and one bridge alone is 7 miles long and is a pain for motorist much less Pythons. This is a ridiculous assumption to be made public. They are on Key Largo but Key Largo is the northernmost Key and can be reached thru Mangrove swamps easily. Not so with Big Pine and the other lower Keys.Going Key to Key south would be impossible because of the one road, lengthy bridges, and a host of cars headed south to do the "Duval Crawl". Some of you will know what that means and leads to great fun and giant hangovers.lol..It has yet to be determined what effect these snakes will have long term on the ecology of the Eveglades but one thing is certain and that is THEY ARE HERE TO STAY. Any new legislation will NOT change this fact. The entire bill is being pushed by special interest groups that have always in my lifetime tried to prevent the private sector from having herps of any kind. The real agenda is another law aimed at restricting our personal freedoms and our pursuit of happiness guaranteed by the Constitution. Both PIJAC and USARK are working diligently to fight these bills and the herp community should join both to oppose these in a professional way. USARK is severely underfunded and Andrew is doing a GREAT job considering what he has to work with. Please, for once, lets come together with one common goal and win this fight. Join PIJAC and USARK and fight the American way with our right to vote and the effect of contacting the powers that be and letting them know YOU ARE OPPOSED TO THIS BAD LEGISLATION which is NOT based on science but histeria and wild speculation. Sorry for the rant...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Another irritating statement is the blaming of the entire introduction of Burmese Pythons on irresponsible people intentionally releasing them. The evidence simply indicates otherwise. All of these snakes are related which has been proven by DNA studies. If they were random releases by different disgruntled Python owners they would NOT be all related. Pythons have been imported into Florida for over 40 years in large numbers. Why now do we have a breeding population and not long ago? The answer again has been proven. It was only after Hurricane Andrew that we began to see Burmese Pythons in numbers. That storm, the worst in recorded history, wiped out houses, attractions, Metro Zoo, and a plethora of facilities housing wildlife. Metro Zoo in Miami even had tons of exotic escapes much less private people, and smaller Tourist Attractions. To really establish a breeding population of anything fairley large numbers have to be released in the same vicinity at the same time to insure success. Hurricane Andrew did this in one day. That is NOT speculation but is factual!!! Everyone working with these snakes has ALL this same info but no one is speaking out in our behalf unfortunately so let our voices be heard loud and clear. Again let's all join together as one and defeat this bill based on histeria with NO scientific evidence to support the banning of Pythons...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thanks Tom,thats what we all need hear so we can tell people the truth about it from an expert with "boots on the ground" information.We need to show the general public that Pythons/Reptiles are a very mainstream family hobby,and not the 50ish Monster movie image the press is portraying.I'll do what I can here in N.Fl.just wanted to get the FACKS.......live free or die......out

I would suggest everyone find and read the following paper. I have yet to read it, but the abstract seems very relevant to this issue.

2) Predicting Establishment Success For Alien Reptiles And Amphibians: A Role For Climate Matching
Biological Invasions
ISSN 1387-3547 (Print) 1573-1464 (Online)
Issue Volume 11, Number 3 / March, 2009
Category Original Paper
Pages 713-724

Mary Bomford1, Fred Kraus2, Simon C. Barry3 and Emma Lawrence1 Contact Information
(1) Bureau of Rural Sciences, GPO Box 858, Canberra, ACT, 2601, Australia
(2) Department of Natural Sciences, Bishop Museum, 1525 Bernice St., Honolulu, HI 96817, USA
(3) CSIRO Mathematical and Information Sciences, GPO Box 664, Canberra, ACT, 2601, Australia

Received: 25 February 2008 Accepted: 15 May 2008 Published online: 31 May 2008
Abstract We examined data comprising 1,028 successful and 967 failed introduction records for 596 species of alien reptiles and amphibians around the world to test for factors influencing establishment success. We found significant variations between families and between genera. The number of jurisdictions where a species was introduced was a significant predictor of the probability the species had established in at least one jurisdiction. All species that had been introduced to more than 10 jurisdictions (34 species) had established at least one alien population. We also conducted more detailed quantitative comparisons for successful (69 species) and failed (116 species) introductions to three jurisdictions (Great Britain, California and Florida) to test for associations with climate match, geographic range size, and history of establishment success elsewhere. Relative to failed species, successful species had better climate matches between the jurisdiction where they were introduced and their geographic range elsewhere in the world. Successful species were also more likely to have high establishment success rates elsewhere in the world. Cross-validations indicated our full model correctly categorized establishment success with 78–80% accuracy. Our findings may guide risk assessments for the import of live alien reptiles and amphibians to reduce the rate new species establish in the wild.

Keywords Alien species - Amphibians - Climate matching - Establishment success - Prediction - Reptiles - Risk assessment

Contact Information Emma Lawrence
Email: emma.lawrence@brs.gov.au

Asalzberg
HerpDigest

Having read this "paper" it's clear that it represents nothing more then another attempt to undermine the truth thru the use of propaganda veiled as unbiased scientific evidence . The issue is very poorly researched by their own estimation (Fishing for grant money ) The paper concludes that a BAN on the trade of non native wildlife is a good idea. ( Pat on the back from activist groups ) .

At what point do the academics who are clearly using their position for personal agenda begin to become accountable for their lack of ethics ? How about a study on the negative economical, environmental and social impacts caused by fraudulent information introduced by scientist working from a corrupted bias.

Was it a coincidence that Florida , California and Great Britain were chosen as the three primary test jurisdictions ? These three places represent ground zero locations for anti ownership activist and no doubt the academics are greatly " influenced " by their presents. In other words home field advantage. Maybe it's time for someone to do a paper entitled the Science of buying scientist a study in corrupted ethics.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Are you talking about this paper?
Predicting Establishment Success For Alien Reptiles And Amphibians: A Role For Climate Matching
Biological Invasions
ISSN 1387-3547 (Print) 1573-1464 (Online)
Issue Volume 11, Number 3 / March, 2009
Category Original Paper
Pages 713-724

No one I know who subscribes to it has it yet. I subscribe to their pre-announcement service, hence I knew it was in their next issue to announce in my last issue of HD.

So if you managed to get a copy I would like to know how, so I can get am early copy. Or can you send me a copy, pdf file, to asalzberg@herpdigest.org

I would like to see the full paper, you can't go by the abstract, Can you email it to me asalzberg@herpdigest.org and then I can arrange to make it available to everyone.

I've read the Krauss paper entitled ,

Alien Reptiles : Early Progress Towards Predicting Risk

The abstract to the paper you mentioned is virtually identical to portions of the paper I read. So close I thought they were the same paper. At any rate it's clear that Krauss and company are subscribing to the same formulamatic attack that's become very familiar. The difference may be now that they have everyone ones attention they can try to be a little more subtle. professional sounding , convincing ........concerned. Yes that's it concerned.

I'm a firm believer in the old saying , don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining. Having to pull out an umbrella every time one of these guys like Krauss decides to write a paper is getting old. If any more finger pointing needs to be done it's time to start pointing at the academic set and their attempts to exploit environmental issues for personal gain.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Can you supply me with the paper, or at least citation of the previous paper. What date, title, publication. Some clues I can track it down on the net?

Forgot, the genetics paper Cruchfield cites do you know where to get a copy? have a copy? I've met him once or twice but do not have his email address to contact him?

Al, the info I have on relationships of wild Pythons has come DIRECTLY to me oraly thru talking with some researchers working on this problem that asked to remain anonimous. Dave Barker, I believe discusses this in more detail in his paper published by the Chicago Herp Society some time ago. I'm NOT sure there is a paper that has been published on the DNA of these snakes. Do you know why that would be? I can't find anything official so perhaps you can or explain why, since the DNA has been studied there in fact is NO scientific paper. Admittedly I don't keep abreast of newly published papers as I used to so perhaps since that is what you do we could use some assistance. Also a scientific explanation of why in the last 40 years although many hundreds of thousands of Burmese Pythons have been imported into Florida only after post Hurricane Andrew was it discovered that a selfsustaining population occurs and the epicenter seems to be extreme S.E. Florida where the eye of Hurricane Andrew past over. Does this sound logical to you from a "strictly scientific point of view"? I think this adversarial position between herpers and academics[herpers in my eyes] should NOT exist and years ago in fact didn't exist. The question is why does it exist now. Many old, dear friends are now retired academics. The time has come to work together as before and not snap at each others throats when in fact our goals are similar. I believe we all have an abundent interest and love for these misunderstood and fascinating creatures so why not bury the hatchet and work together to strive to ensure our childrens children will have the same herpetofauna to study and love as we did..thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Don't know where to start to answer you, but why not the beginning.

To me the python controversy,started with the misunderstanding by python and boa breeders and owners of the USGS papers, which were meant to be speculations of what might happen, if certain other things happen, like really extreme climate change, Rising of ocean levels that turned most of the southern US coast into swamps. Increase in release of ex-pets. A lot of things had to fall into place for pythons to wind up in SF. And they included Long Island.

They also said that there were a lot of obstacles already in place for it to not happen, natural and man made. roads, development, mountains, etc.

What made it all worse was the media picked it up. Sensationalized it. And there was the Burmese python and the gator that Nat Geo even made a documentary on.

But, even before then, no one was talking to anyone. Barker's papers, though I like him personally, and respect his knowledge on the care and breeding of all pythons, radicalized the pet side. People always quote them. But they are not scientifically based, CHS does not do any peer reviewing, they are op-eds. And he falls into the same trap the media did in looking toward the extreme, and he sometimes was really insulting.

I mean he was taking on Gordon Rhodda who is probably the world's expert on harmful invasive snakes having worked on the Brown Snake problem in Guam for almost 20 years.

So for good reason, no one in the scientific community takes the CHS papers seriously.

As for DNA, don't know of any samples taken. Can't imagine the US government spending the necessary money in the past 8 years to take enough DNA samples to do a real representative study.

Also I would expect the DNA samples to be similar, you know the industry, certain animals come from certain places overseas. Usually one person who has the only export permit. And all the species mentioned have been successfully breed here, many times over.

As for your Hurricane Andrew theory. Quite possible. But the snakes are already spreading north and south. The problem is already here.

I am waiting for another Hurricane Andrew to happen to Florida. All metrologists say that in the coming years, there will probably be as many, or less hurricanes, but the ones that do happen will be levels 3 and up.

BUT YOUR REAL QUESTION

Want to get the scientists and snake-lovers back together? TSA is a model. But they had a disaster, The Chinese buying up every turtle in Asia, to force them to work together. I was involved in the beginning, the first informal meeting on the issue, and also helped Bill McCord get that first video out to everyone.

You need a broker. Someone both sides trust. Knows the issues well to get a dialogue going. Start by getting people to agree on small things. Find areas in the python question people can agree with. Help them find solutions. Earn trust.

IHS could be a good place to recruit people, Daytona? Even SSAR.
And be careful whom you enlist, a lot of snake people have bad reputations when it comes to the law and conservation. Earned and unearned.

AN IDEA. OLD ONE ACTUALLY. ONE I STOPPED PROPOSING LONG AGO. When i use to go to daytona, orlando, parc meetings.etc.

Get Zoo people to act as intermediaries between the enforcement officers, scientists, and breeders and hobbyists.
Why IHS is probably a good place. (yes i know there are, were, crooked zoo people, butits a start.)

Hope I've answered some of your questions. And maybe gave you some ideas to get everyone working together.

As always the above represents my personal thoughts, NOT HERPDIGEST. The thoughts of someone who owns a ball python, rehabbed more than snakes and herps he could count, and owns some turtles for almost 20 years now.

Good luck.

By the way did your friend like the Iguana University Diploma you bought from HerpArts.com last year?

AS

This is directed specifically towards you. Nothing personal at all, and not in a hasty manner.

"I mean he was taking on Gordon Rhodda who is probably the world's expert on harmful invasive snakes..."

Experts aren't always experts. They aren't always right.

USGS papers/map - You said, ",,,the USGS papers, which were meant to be speculations of what might happen, if certain other things happen, like really extreme climate change, Rising of ocean levels that turned most of the southern US coast into swamps. Increase in release of ex-pets. A lot of things had to fall into place...

That's the equivalent of if my aunt had male reproductive organs she'd be my uncle. I call it junk science. And more.

"What made it all worse was the media picked it up. Sensationalized it."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Rhodda the one that took it to the media, breaking tradition without talking to the other people & organizations involved in the study?

I say he has an agenda. Perhaps, if nothing else but an attempt at job security in the way of federal funding for research? Are there anymore invasive species in Guam that he can go research?

I just had to get that off my chest. Carry on!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Ha! I'm sorry! My first sentence was supposed to have read - "This NOT specifically directed to you."

Dang, I bet that raised an eyebrow. Ha! Ha! Sorry about that!

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Actually Al, I agree with you on many of your points with the exception of the Rodda Paper which I believe has the scientific value of a smut magazine article. Patty indeed loved her Iguana Diploma and as I said I think you're onto something with your HerpArt, all you need is some marketing. I think it is very clever, funny, and would be appreciated by all. As for the expectation of all the snakes being related your statement lacks merit only because you don't understand the Industry. First Burmese Pythons are imported by MANY folks not just one or two from the same place. I personally have imported Burmese from Thailand [years ago origin of most], Hong Kong, Singapore, and Viet Nam. If these pythons were the result of releases over time by disgruntled snake owners there would be a great disparity in DNA relationships of the snakes which I've been told isn't the case and you as much have agreed. In your reply you seem to agree that Hurricane Andrew is likely the major factor in the release of these snakes which I have said evidence points toward. My question is if you and I agree why are your peers who are privy to the same info continually blaming the release on the herp Indunstries clandestine release of unwanted Pythons? Therein is another problem where WE, THE INDUSTRY ARE INTENTIONALLY ATTACKED BY CERTAIN ACADEMICS FOR PERSONAL GAIN [grants etc]. It is hard not to mount a counter attack when someone slaps you in the face with false data and conclusions. I am not attacking you personally just would like my questions answered...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

" What made it all worse was the media picked it up. Sensationalized it."

That's what Rodda says to the guys who question his ethics , motive and methods. But in his own words via a radio broadcast he said the problem was WORST then his cartoonish map indicated. That's the game in nut shell. This guy has long standing political ties to radical environmental groups. Make no mistake he's been bank rolled had books and papers published , his career boosted by his buddys at the Sierra club and he's a far from the only one. In case anyone's not hip the Sierra club is partners with Peta. Everyone wants their piece of the pie plain and simple.

The media didn't just pick things up. This attack was all very calculated. Instead of studying the animals a game of political connect dots would be more revealing as to what is really going on. To say it was a "misunderstanding by python and boa breeders and owners of the USGS papers " is very insulting. This was never about science , being fair or what's best for nature. Who's kidding who ? It's not hard to smell a rat.

For the politicians here in Florida the Burmese invasion was a godsend. The perfect red herring. This animal brought national attention to the everglades and how we need to protect this treasure at all cost. Mean while in a cozy back room they were brokering an illegal land deal that will cost tax payers billions of dollars and thousands of small town workers their jobs. All in the name of a phony environmental restoration scam. The deal will push back restoration projects 6 maybe 10 years and actually divert funds away from these projects among other things. The issues surrounding the Pet trade are just bi products caused by various individuals looking to cash in on the situationin one way or another.

In a perfect world we could all get together in the name of a united cause and sing kum bi ya around the camp fire.

I don't know if that world ever existed but if it did it vanished a long time ago with the last vinyl Joni Mitchell records. In todays, world wake up.........Schools out.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Another question I have is to have you explain to us all here how Burmese Pythons are going to get to Big Pine Key to devour the Key Deer. This is of particular interest to me as it is well known that the herpetofauna of the West Indies is very different from that of Florida because of their inability to navigate the Gulf Stream northward. Is it any easier to navigate the Gulf Stream from the north OR is this absolute rubbish being spoon fed to politicians by someone [by who for instance] to drum up support for a worthless bill and to insure more grant money to fund studies which are not necessary. This, I think, is the crux of our problems with academic studies. Seriously, I would appreciate you explaining how these snakes are going to cross this formidable barrier which so far has ONLY been accomplished by Manatees and American Crocodiles and eat the Key Deer. I await your answer with anticipation....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom

The problem you want to solve, of getting academics together with hobbyists, breeders etc. will never happen if you talk to them, write to them in the tone you just emailed me a bunch of very reasonable questions.

And especially by adding:

"Is it any easier to navigate the Gulf Stream from the north OR is this absolute rubbish being spoon fed to politicians by someone [by who for instance] to drum up support for a worthless bill and to insure more grant money to fund studies which are not necessary. This, I think, is the crux of our problems with academic studies."

Neutral tone, language, calm voice, ask questions seriously, In your last email you answered them in the question. And harshly.
Take a prozac. Read over your words. Ask your questions plainly and simply. If you disagree say so simply and why? Don't add an insult. Even infer one.

I rarely agree with Michael Meyers from PIJAC, though you could take some lessons from him.

There is an old saying, "I can't hear you because you are talking too loud." And I am not just talking volume.
When you write something, put it aside, read it out loud.
Then rewrite it.

Lincoln and Mark Twain were famous for when they were angry at someone, writing everything bad they wanted to say to them in a letter, then putting it away in a drawer and rewriting the whole thing. Minus the bad stuff, but still getting their points across, asking their questions.

Meanwhile I have to go watch Battlestar Gallatica before I nod off here.

Latter.

as

All,

When I came into the game the anti-herp industry movement within academia was already in full swing. When I first moved to Gainesville I remember Kevin Brown telling me that I needed to avoid the Gainesville Herp Society (GHS) and instead drive down to Orlando and visit Wayne's World (Central Florida Herp Society). I said why? And he said that GHS was full of academics and less about the hobby and CFHS was more about hobbyists. Well, I didn't take his advice although I did go down and check out the CFHS. GHS had its fair amount of hobbyists, breeders and dealers: Bill Brant, Eugene Bessette and Doug Foster to name a few but Paul Moler was at almost every meeting. It was pretty cool.

When I started at The Central Florida Zoo I wasn't that into the "banning agenda" but I soon started leaning that way after reading all the herp books, field guides and scientific papers espousing to the massive problems and population depletion by collectors. I even wrote some now classic articles in the GHS newsletter and started pushing conservation hardcore. Why do people need to breed burms and keep iguanas. When they get to big they just try to pawn them off at the zoo. Or I would get calls about sick iguanas all the time. That needed to stop. Why do folks need to rape the wild? We must stop them! I had been to Hogtown(worked there), Crutchfield's and Strictly's. Needless to say Bill Brant was President of GHS at this time and some there didn't take kindly to my new agenda.

Then I went back to NC State to finish my bachelors. I was still hardcore conservation. I started doing the picture thing with herps and getting back involved with the NC Herp Society. This is where I started pushing the banning agenda further and found folks who had similar views, lots of them. There were plenty of academics and other professional folks who were on board already pushing the agenda. But I was getting my degree in wildlife science and there were all these tools and statistics that can be used to manage wildlife in a sustainable manner. Really? We can take animals from the wild and it doesn't damage populations? Oh, yes indeed. Well, okay then. I do see lots of herps when I go out looking. All species can be harvested if the populations are reasonably healthy because each species produces a surplus. Well I guess I was wrong all those years. I didn't ever read any papers documenting over-collecting or commercial collection as bad just these statements in papers and books. Another thing I learned is that many academics, on their own time, support NGO's and other organizations that push this hardcore conservation agenda. They do this because they don't want to jeopardize their standing as professionals by preaching this extreme agenda.

What I have finally come to see is that the new school academics have been raised in this anti-herp industry culture where animal rights and conservation groups propaganda have raised these folks. They don't have any data but they believe! As I once believed. And I didn't have any evidence that commercial collecting was damaging and documented as factual and I didn't read any papers about it but I believed the propaganda too. If you take to many herps it has got to be a negative. And people who sell herps take more then others so we must label commercial collection as bad. Let's push that agenda. Because to get some of what you want you have to take extreme views, which many academics do, to at least get something. But a funny thing happens, these academics just scare the hell out of game and fish with their dire predictions (they are already sympathetic because they came from academia) and then private herpers rights are snatched away. Just like that! Wow! From no regulation to banning most everything. That is wrong! The system has some pretty hefty design flaws.

Alan scolded Tom for his tone. But Tom has every right to take this tone. Tom maybe more than others. Private herpers have been treated like garbage by academics and regulators for years. They have been pushing this extremist banning agenda. They do not include us in the design process. They write papers which are flawed to push their agenda. Academics have to justify their position. They have to preserve their jobs and create funding opportunities. They need to make MONEY. And they do this by stepping on the backs of the herp hobby. I have been a member of all the major herp sectors (zoo, academic and private), well, except regulator and it is plain to see. I understand that we need to tone down the negativity in order to work together but we need to be shown some respect and shown to be valued. Academia and the regulators need to make a fricken effort here, Alan.

Welkerii

The reason I used my sarcastic response was a direct response to you asking where the info I quoted on the DNA was and you saying you don't have my contact info. You know that isn't true by your own admission as I recently purchased by e-mail and phone the Iguana Diploma for Patty. That was a sarcastic response started by you not me. Therefore I reacted in a like manner. You still made NO attempt to answer my question on how Burmese Pythons are going to cross the Gulf Stream to occupy Big Pine Key and devour the Key Deer. This has been quoted regularly by the newsmedia and others. Where are they getting this erronious info from? It can only be coming from a few sources all leading to academics that have a vested financial interest in perpetuating this fable. The fact is you are well aware these snakes CAN NOT EVER GET TO BIG PINE KEY AND THEY WILL NEVER BE A THREAT TO THE KEY DEER. Al I'm not trying to be abrasive but I'm just being truthful. It would be nice for us to all be able to work together but it is us that have been attacked by some of the academic community over and over again oftimes using bad science and just plain lies to finance their own jobs [grants etc]. These faux scientific papers [Rodda for instance] are but a sensational ploy to justify ones own existance at the expense of other people and I, for one, will NOT stand idly by and not speak the truth. Also DNA has been done on the wild snakes. Once again why are the findings not made public so our intentional release of these snakes can be proven? I believe you know the answer to that question as well. If you want respect first you must be able to give respect. Since you quote others from the past Mark Twain I believe once said "it's not what you say that matters but how you say it that counts". I awaight your response once more...thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

By the way the gentleman in PIJAC is Marshall Myers NOT Michael Myers the KILLER in the Halloween Movies, THE MASKED KILLER...LOL
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Seems while I was asleep a lot of people were at work writing to me. Here and my personal email address.

I'll answer what I can in one. Anything, anyone, I leave out, don't respond to, either I don't know the answer to your question, or because it wasn't a question but an accusation of my so-called complicity with the enemy, or pure stupidity.

To begin with.

I stand corrected. Spelling typo. One I seem to always make. Apologies to all. Especially Marshall.
The guy with the mask does not work for PIJAC. Thankfully.

As for another needed correction --- someone compared Sierra Club to PETA. Considering their philosophies, history, and many times they have sued each other. That's like comparing Sarah P.to Hillary Clinton. Oops they tried that.

Also sorry if my answers/email sounded sarcastic. That is the trouble with email, sarcasm, irony doesn't translate. And it's seen where it isn't intended. Apologies if anything I wrote came out that way. It wasn't intended.

Tom, I didn't answer your specific questions, because I was half asleep and signing off. But my answer today is the same as yesterday. I don't know. (questions concerning the gulf stream, expansion to the keys) But they are good questions and should be asked.

Also if DNA samples were taken use FOIA to track them down. Make a formal request to see a copy of the report.

As for your first direct email to me, about bringing scientists and herpers together. Well I guess maybe, one day. But from the emails I have received the problem is on both sides. And I am retiring from trying to defend or explain anyone on both sides. Or in the middle, like me. You can't win. You get called obscenities for trying.

Its like trying to make peace between the Palestine and Israel. Won't live to see it. May not be possible. Positions have hardened too much on both sides. It's all or nothing.

So good luck with your project, dreams, I can only make suggestions.

And probably not even not that by the reactions I've received. Everything seems to have fallen on deaf ears, and the sarcasm and vile in the emails I got are not imagined. Rreading them I felt like a black man who was lured into a KKK rally. (And no I don't mean anyone who wrote are bigots, just an analogy to try show how I felt by the responses.)

So its up to you to make the moves, to form coalitions, to save the herpetofauna we all so love.

Good luck. That I mean with no sarcasm, just wishing you good luck.

I'll just stick to what others say and reporting on it when I can in HD. No more personal opinions or advice.

And to everyone, don't bother responding expecting me to see it or respond I didn't check the box next to -Receive an email notification when a reply is made?-

Signing off

as

Al, I apologize as well because I did take your statement as a sarcastic one and that is why I responded in a like manner. I have only great respect for you and think your HerpArt is BRILLIANT as I told you on the phone when I received the "Diploma". I also know when e-mails are sent sometimes they appear to be something not intended because we're not talking where one can acertain the meaning better. That is why I pefer calling as opposed to e-mailing. In any event I still am an optomist and believe we all share common goals and it is my sincere hope that we can work together for a positive result. Thank you for your kind respnse and explanation. Again, please accept my apology as well...thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Once again you fail to understand the working of big business. If you consider what amounts to not much more then lovers quarrels as validation that these groups are not in bed together. I suggest you further educate yourself before making silly analogies . There is a strong and undeniable cross over between the groups many times camouflage by the fact that they form "new groups " to cover their trail.

The Sierra Club’s new extremist priorities are best illustrated in the person of animal-rights extremist Paul Watson, he's on the Sierra Club's board of directors who said,

There's nothing wrong with being a terrorist, as long as you win. Then you write history." Sierra Club board member Paul Watson.

In 2002, Sierra Club activists in Florida teamed with PETA to pass a ballot initiative that extends constitutional rights to pregnant pigs.

There are many examples.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.