Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I apologize to all for this but this topic has gotten me a bit hot.

Bottom line is humans have really messed things up as they seem to do with most every situation when it comes to the environment and its delicate makeup. Once these problems are brought to light people just love to turn their heads and say it wasn't me or ask why is the government always coming down on me. I wonder.

Prime examples are the Whales that the Japanese are hunting or the seals that the Canadian Fisherman club to death as a filler income in the off season of their normal fishing period. Humans again not caring about the impact on the population just the fact that each whale brings in a half of a million $'s. None of this is regulated and when we as society try to regulate they just ignore it over and over until the population will eventually dwindle. This is so sad. The list of animals that have gone extinct or are about to due to humans interaction is a mile long.

The worst part about all of this is these animals and our planet is suffering all due to one thing. The almighty dollar. This is the root of all of this and heartbreaking.

Let it be known that I am aware that there are plenty of great people in this industry that are responsible and don't contribute to this but thats not good enough sometimes. You need to look at the big picture.

It sucks but its a reality.

Is it just me, but what was this rant about? Did someone do something to make a possible ban on Pythons happen? Or is he just mad about Whales and Seals? I think I miss the big picture. Anyone help me out here?

lol, your right I ran off course there a bit. Got more into the big picture of people not getting why government has to put limits and bans on animal hunting/importation/owning. Just used these as examples.

My problem with the ban is that is has the issue of being so broad as to be ineffective. It would make more sense to ban/limit breeding/keeping/transport of species that can become invasive in certain areas.

For instance, since it is proven that Ball Pythons could exist and invade in the Everglades, then they should be outlawed *in the Everglades* not Northern Michigan, where they would NOT survive.

Good point and I think everyone including myself would agree.

I agree with that point whole heartedly. Making such a broad ban makes no sense at all. Perhaps the thing that leaves me shaking my head the most is that those in favor of this ban often cite the "feral" pythons in the everglades. Supposedly this population is breeding (I haven't seen any reports about this, not sure if there are any even??) and if that's the case what's this ban gonna solve???? Sure you outlawed importation, breeding, and sales. Mr Congressman gonna trudge into the Everglades and tell the pythons they're not allowed to breed there anymore?? Don't think so. They're resources would be better spent developing containment and erradication plans.

Just my two cents...

Dan
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1.0.0 Snow Corn - RIP
0.1.0 Normal Corn Snake
1.0.0 Amelanistic Corn Snake
1.1.0 Black Racers
0.1.0 Normal Ball Python
1.0.0 Pastel Ball Python
1.0.0 Red Eared Slider

Ahh, OK, my bad. I don't think too clearly when tired and didn't grasp it at first. I do agree with Bolitochrome though, with maybe restricting the ban geographically if letting the Pythons loose in the wild is their main concern.

>>Ahh, OK, my bad. I don't think too clearly when tired and didn't grasp it at first. I do agree with Bolitochrome though, with maybe restricting the ban geographically if letting the Pythons loose in the wild is their main concern.

They already have,Hawaii,because they had the same problem in Guam(that brown tree snake)Which I suspect is why they have their representative pushing the bill.

However..It's like alot of people here have said...That's ANOTHER tropical region ,same as southern Florida...That climate is a VERY small percentage of what our nation has to offer.Just ask any farmer in Wisconsin(,or how about Sarah Palin.Surely they do not think a tropical reptile could survive/thrive in Alaska! lol)
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Charles Glaspie
http://www.myspace.com/coldthumb

I have to agree with everyone. Florida and Guam have the issues and most likely the only places the reptiles can survive. Ban them from Florida and Guam and be done with it. No need to penalize the entire industry for Floridas issue of having lax reptile and animal laws.

First Florida does NOT have lax wildlife laws but are a model for many other states. All wildlife here in Florida are regulated in one way or the other. Dangerous Wildlife are designated Class 1 or 2 and one has to have a minimum of 5 acres of land, strict housing facilities that are inspected regularly and have minimum requirements for safety, and the permittee must document a minimum of 1,000 hours prior experience. It is only then a permit may be applied for. This also includes venomous reptiles and other like wildlife. Burmese pythons and other select herps are called Reptiles of Concern and strict housing and prior experience are required to have one. Additionall these herps are required to be micro-chipped because in the event of an escape the state will know exactly who it came from.The permit cost for these herps is $100 annually. Florida is a state that DOES A GREAT JOB protecting the public at large as well as the animals held in captivity. The Florida Wildlife Commission is one of a few states that has inspectors whose entire job is to inspect and regulate captive wildlife. It is illegal to release wildlife and serious fines and even jail time is possible. There are educational programs given, signs in remote areas, etc all promoting non release of wildlife. I'd venture to say the BIGGEST reason for for our non-native wildlife problem is our climate and hurricanes. Pennsylvania for instance has NO laws on non native herps. To say Florida is lax is like saying you can't get a hamburger at McDonalds...lol
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yeah what Tom said!Saintz don't speak until you know the facts.

Come on Tom I don't know you can really call that a hamburger... more like cardboard in grease. LOL.

I am just trying to keep some mild humor though this.

Matt

Great point, it is in fact cardboard with cheese. That made my day...thanks...This is taken too serious and while it is it's unwise to fight when you're mad. Ask any pro-fighter. We should ALL fight this and do our best but with a light heart...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Just to demonstrate how strict the laws are we just had to be inspected and pay for an aqua-culture permit in order to keep Red Ear Turtles. We breed albinos and while albinos are NOT regulated normals including hets are and a permit is required for possession. This is to prevent their escape or release where they might hybridize with native turtles. How many states have regulations like these? You have to have a minimum elevation, adequate escape proof enclosure etc to obtain the permit and even after initial inspection one can anticipate a random unannounced inspection at least once annually on ALL permits one holds. Florida has a much undeserved reputation as an anything goes state when nothing could be further from the truth. Additionall the herp community here has a lot of input as to how the regulations are promulgated. Florida has chosen to regulate NOT ban wildlife as they have the foresight to realize it can't be stopped but just would go underground. This would just make all these problems worse and it's much better to regulate than ban...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I form the Northeast and very few species of snakes can live in my area.
Anyways was wondering why the state of Florida will/wont allow fellow Herpers to go to the Everglades and try to collect the species in hopes of eliminating the issue?

My stance is that we as a Community are "responsible" for this disaster. Not saying everyone released one of the snakes in question but some have "escaped" into the State of Florida and taken root. I think they should give us chance to try to fix the Everglades.

Also do you think the issue would be such a disaster if is was a smaller species of snake?

It's NOT a disaster now with the Burmese. But it is sensational, a snake that may reach a length of 20' and weigh 250 lbs is NEWSWORTHY AND FRIGHTNING TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. A smaller snake would NOT be as big of an issue. Because it's so large the various special interest groups who have been after us for years are using this as a springboard to outlaw everything everywhere. For instance they talk about Key Deer being a potential food item. Big Pine Key is about 75 miles from the mainland with only one hiway going there where one bridge alone is 7 miles long. How are they going to get there to eat these diminutive Deer. The answer is their not. It's just propaganda and an uninformed senator that knows nothing about the Deer or Fl. geography might vote for the bill because of statements that are quite simply untrue...That is the crux of the problem. None of this is based on science just histeria intentionally promoted by special interest groups...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Well thanks for the information on this subject.

>> Anyways was wondering why the state of Florida will/wont allow fellow Herpers to go to the Everglades and try to collect the species in hopes of eliminating the issue?

It's a big place... I mean big. REALLY big!!! Not to mention nearly impossible to navigate on foot in many areas. I cannot fathom how they could be field collected efficiently especially during the rainy season. My opinion is that it will take something like scent trained dogs to hunt them down. But, that can be a major liability for the dog! Very difficult situation we have here to say the least...

Matt

It's quite simple really and that is there's a new species native to Florida. Burmese Pythons are here to stay...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yep, that's the way it will be for sure.

Matt

>>It's quite simple really and that is there's a new species native to Florida. Burmese Pythons are here to stay...
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>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom hit the nail on the head-removing burms from the Everglades is a war that was lost years ago-long before we we were aware the war existed!

Burmese pythons are here to stay-and our hobby/industry is in DEEP trouble. Take it from me, they are serious about getting this bill passed this time!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

BRAD IS ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT!!!!!
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Well in my opinion they don't want people collecting for two reasons. First. If there was a no cost/low cost, easy solution to eliminate or at least control the populations of Burmese then they would lose their "poster" reason for banning invasive species. Second. There could be the potential for impact on the natural enviroment from all the people that would be moving thru the park. I know I would take a trip or two a year down just to see what I could find. What do you say Matt. You up for a little field herping in the Glades? Jeff

>>What do you say Matt. You up for a little field herping in the Glades?

I've got a crew ready to go! No BS... we'll set something up soon.

Matt
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"Change what you cannot accept... do not accept what you can't change!"

Tod Ashley C.$.C.

Now thats what I'm talkin' 'bout bro. You can count me in for sure. Jeff

I live 10 mins from the actual park. Down here in Homestead, fl. Its been really cold lately. The coldest snap hitt us at 28. Saturday the front moved away and left us at 70. I left early saturday morning to see if I'll see any basking from the strong cold nights. But had no luck. Im guessing this is there breeding season and there brumating time. It'll be a little hard to spot some now. There deep in the pinewoodlands burrowed in rattlesnake and indigo holes. I'll try again this week when the temps shoot to 80. If I dont get anything I'll wait until the spring. Its crazy just to think that can be breeding right now.

Reason why Im out there is beacuse im really tired of all the complaints that the goverment are putting on the reptile keeper. I know the war is lost. And Burmese pythons are here to stay, but If im out there reporting every Burm I see I can show them that we care and we would help.

Here are pictures of a 7footer we found on the side of the road. Im guessing it was killed by a car. Its real guys. They're here and Burms are not just a croc in the sewer story.




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Chris Berrios
~South Fl Constrictors~

No need to penalize the entire industry for Floridas issue of having lax reptile and animal laws.

Why don't you talk about something you know? With this statement it sounds like your sitting on your mouth!

If the python problems were a result of people letting them go, you might have a little bit of an arguement but no you don't have an arguement or a clue as to what your saying period!

Point blank is the government wants money and that's all the bans are about. I think the bans will change into "now you need these special permits." Only time will tell though.

Have you thought about the fact that if we as people keep on doing what we ae doing to the planet that we will be on the endangered species list?

Who will protect us from ourselves than?