Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Now what?!

Went down to turn the lights on this morning and found Terrance (what I thought was the male!) under the night heat lamp shooting eggs out! I thought this was abnormal for her not to dig and thought well, maybe they are just infertile, keep in mind I do have her in w/ another sav, thought to be female but now it could be anything, so I had to go to work, let her finished laying, told my dad to take them out when she is done and temporarily put them somewhere til i got home. So, I got an incubator and some vermeculite in a rubbermaid from work, came home set everything up then noticed the male eating something behind a log... Triggers in my head "shoot there are more!" ran in and found 6 more buried like they should be. Total I have 16, I imagine she probably layed around 25 but the bigger one (male?) ate some before I noticed cause i am stupid. Now I am thinking the bigger one is in fact a male and maybe I have some fertilized eggs on my hands? We shall see...

-Dan
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Timor Monitor (Timmmmaaayy)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

Holy carp!)

You don't think they could both be female and one buried hers and the other spread em around?

Hey, I hope that's not the case and they 'are' fertile and it turns out for the absolute best for you and them- Fingers and all crossed!!!!

Thank you! I don't think that's the case because I only saw the one laying out in the open and later I saw the other one eating the eggs that were buried... So if that were the case she would be eating her own eggs which I don't think they would do? I don't know.
I think she was trying to lay in her buried hole like she is supposed to then got chased away by the big meanie and started shooting the eggs out anywhere she could, but who knows cause then all of the eggs would probably been eaten... We shall see!

I wonder how long they take to hatch? I read on one site 5-6 weeks and I read on another site 4-5 months, so I am confused.
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Timor Monitor (Timmmmaaayy)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

[I wonder how long they take to hatch? I read on one site 5-6 weeks and I read on another site 4-5 months, so I am confused.]

I've never heard of them hatching in 5-6weeks, but 5mos, yes.
Do you have Daniel Bennett/Ravi's book, 'The Savannah Monitor Lizard'?

Ravi has hatched Savannahs and there's info about incubation temps, substrate moisture etc. Really great book, though some info may be outdated *I don't think the reproduction info is*

I do own that actually and right after typing that question I went up and re-read the section on breeding ha ha. Looks like I am doing everything right I hope they are fertile mertyls!
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Timor Monitor (Timmmmaaayy)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

I surely hope this works out for you.

Best of luck!
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Dances With Reptiles

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cain" Rescued from a crack house
0.1.9 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment (Eggs all hatched!)
1.3.13 Storeria dekayi - Brown Snakes Casper, Xena, Athena, Copper, Sharon & Kids
0.1.0 Thamnophis cyrtopsis Easter Black Neck Garter "MoJo"
0.2.0 Thamnophis ordinoides - Northwestern Gartersnake(Blue Phase)
1.1.0. Thamnophis elegans vagrans Wandering Garter
2.2.0 Thamnophis Sirtalis - Florida Blue stripe Garter
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern"Mutt"
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Het
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Red Phase Eastern Garter red and white stripes
0.0.1 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake
0.0.4 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbons
0.0.7 Thamnophis sirtalis - Eastern Garter babies 7/11/08
0.0.7 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic Scott Felzer stock.
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis California Red Sided (R.I.P. little guy)
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC Pink eater!
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Sub-adult CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Getting Huge!
1.1.3. Green Anole "Crystal" & "Chris"
0.1.0 Oscar (Astronotus ocellatus) - "Peach" (A Monitor with fins)
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
??.??.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish / Giant roaches
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

They look infertile to me.

I think fertile eggs are usually full without dents. This is clearly not the case.

In the meantime, I'd be more worried about the female, she looks quite young. Make sure she gets all the food she wants and dust with calcium/vitamin supplements. Also, if you plan to breed these boscs you should reevaluate the substrate and perhaps add a proper nest box. They won't always scatter the eggs on the surface like that and can become egg bound if they don't find suitable lay areas. Lucky for you and her she layed them anyway.

Now that I think about it, put a nest box in anyway just so she will have a place to lay infertiles even.

-Reed
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Reed Porche
http://ExanthematicusUSA.tripod.com/

Hi,

Congratulations, but I dont think the dented eggs will hatch. I would focus on the six that were burried.
I have yet to hatch my first monitors, but have hatched other reptiles, so do with the advise what ever you want, but
your vermiculite layer is much to thin. For this many eggs close together you should at least use 4 inches of vermiculite, the moisture and heat will be much more stable. The weight of the substrate must be much much more than the weight of the eggs, so if the eggs start absorbing water the medium doesn't dry out.
Weigh the total package and write it down, check the weight about once a month to check for water losses.
Also try to find out why she didn't bury them all, check the substrate temperature, it is often too cold.
My female rudicollis is full of eggs again, and I am expecting them around mid febr. My female didn't lay her eggs where she should eather, I hope I get it right this time.

Jasper

[Congratulations, but I dont think the dented eggs will hatch. I would focus on the six that were burried.]

How long does it take a healthy egg, to show signs of drying by denting in? From what other breeders have said, even viable eggs can start to dent if the substrate is too dry, so I was wondering how long it takes them to dent once their environment is too dry.

For instance- could the burried eggs have stayed round looking, because they were not exposed to the surface temps of the substrate and dry air, as were the scattered eggs? And-if the scattered eggs were collected in time, could they be salvaged?
(If the eggs were fertile in the first place)
Also- Can you tell if the eggs are fertile or not, by examining the contents of one of the dud looking ones?

Hi,

Dented fertile eggs can be saved in some cases, but he said in his mail that his father was picking them as they were laid, so that means that they came out dented, and that is a different story.
I think it takes a few hours for eggs to get dented in the terrarium, but that of course depends on the humidity and the surface temps. If the are laid under the floods it will probably just take a few minutes to kill the eggs.
As I said i haven't hached monitors yet, but from what I understand they are one of the most difficult to hatch.

Jasper

Wow, congrats on the eggs, I recall in the late 80's being at a local importers place and he had a bunch of sv imports. There was a big female in the tank laying eggs and the other sv's were eating them almost as fast as she was laying them so I asked the guy if I could take a couple of eggs and he [3 eggs]agreed. Back then I had never hatched a monitor or anything other then a bearded dragon, I set the 2 eggs up in a deli cup with vermiculite and gave them to a friend of mine to hatch, he never had any reptile experiance beforehand but we put the deli cup in a drawer of his waterbed where is was about 79F at all times.Seemed like about 230 days later all 3 hatched, was a cool experiance as we really didnt have a clue if they would ever hatch it took so long. Now I guess at about 86F will hatch them a little faster then we did. Good luck with them.
Cheers, Robert Sutton

Thank you all for the advice it is very much appreciated and a bigger deeper container with more vermiculite seems like a great idea along with weighing it to keep track.
I agree that the dented, sunken looking eggs may not stand a chance but it looks like the buried eggs are appear healthy, given they are fertile.

I have the same question as Susan regarding whether or not there is a way to tell if they eggs are fertile/developing before it is five months later and they just don't hatch... I have heard of something that can be done with chicken eggs where a light is held under the egg and it can be seen whether or not the eggs are successful or not. Can this be done with retile eggs as well or is the shell too thick and leathery.

I have been doing a lot of research on the subject of hatching eggs lately as well as the breeding process and the behavior of my savs is all starting to semi make sense.... First of all, I had their sexes backwards- male is the female and female is the male, that is obvious now (at least 50% of it). The female got out about a month ago for almost 2 weeks, The enclosure is in the basement so it is about 70 degrees outside of the enclosure, she did not eat anything during this time. I am thinking this could relate to the cycle in which she would naturally go into as far as dropping the temps and halting feeding for awhile (just a bit rushed through the process) and when the temps are raised and feeding starts again that is the time to breed. I found her and put her back in and all was well. Then, I posted a few weeks back about the behavior the bigger monitor was doing- the robotic mechanical movements and aiming for the back legs of the female- I have found this is obvious male behavior when he is trying to court the female... Maybe they were successful and this is the outcome? because it has been about 3-4 weeks since then, and here we have eggs. I hope this is the case.

I wish I could have had a nesting box built up for her to lay eggs and I wish I could have gotten the big fat male out of there so she could be in peace (I separated them yesterday because he was picking on her after she was so tired and worn out from the egg laying) and now they will remain separate for some time. These are all things I have learned to fix the next time around!

Thanks-

Dan
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Timor Monitor (Timmmmaaayy)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

[I have heard of something that can be done with chicken eggs where a light is held under the egg and it can be seen whether or not the eggs are successful or not.]

Candling? I'm almost sure I saw a post on Frank's forum, when he said either you can't, or shouldn't??
I'd like to know for sure too, if anyone knows?)

You can bring back eggs that are laid that are not fully hydrated as I did with 20 Mexican beaded eggs, just make your mixture a little more moister but not wet and they will perk back up in a week or 2. If they arent any good they will mold over. Normally you can candle the eggs and will see a red dot and sometimes blood veins running through them. I usually place the egg with the red spot facing the up [facing the heavens]. It is at the end of incubation that to much water will kill the eggs, just wipe any extra condensation from the egg box daily about 2 weeks on a daily basis prior to the hatch date. I have candled many species of dwarf monitor eggs with no ill effect to the egg or embroyo. just use a mini flashlight with the bright led lights in a dark area and you should see something, if the egg has a yellowish color inside it usually isnt a good sign but when they look like clear water inside is usually a good egg. Good luck with them.
Cheers, Robert Sutton
Maxian's Collection

To candle them it will take time, they need to develop to see much of anything. If the eggs are good they will develop, if they are not they will get moldy in a short time. Your best bet is to let them go in the substrate they are incubating in and not disturb them, or as little as possible.
Its hard not to mess with them, but the more consistancy they get the better. You could look for blood vessels to see if the eggs are good, but again its best to let them incubate.
Good luck with them.

Good luck, but those eggs do not appear fertile. Also, even badly nested fertile eggs rarely hatch.

But its not impossible, again good luck.

>>Good luck, but those eggs do not appear fertile. Also, even badly nested fertile eggs rarely hatch.
>>
>> But its not impossible, again good luck.

Since this is being discussed can someone show how to build a good nest box?

I thought it was advisable to just have good burrowble substrate.

Have to say I agree with Reedie the Sav looks young, please make sure she gets plenty of calcium to recooperate
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1.1.0 YBS
1.3.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
1.0.0 Fire belly toad
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor
0.0.1 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Mountain Horned dragon
2.1.0 Ball pythons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

The term "nest box" really really sucks. As it really means nothing. In most cases, it only means a box inside another box. The first box is the cage, so the next box, the nest box, has to be smaller to go inside the first box. I feel like George Carlin and his suitcase number.

In most cases, the first box is toooooo small, so the next box that goes inside is even smaller.

The trouble with monitors is, they are not use to small areas. Consider, to make a burrow, a monitor must dig several times their total lenght. or its not a burrow. Just think about that.

Monitors require a fairly large area to nest, to make a burrow, to make a chamber, to have it deep enough and secure from the elements, etc. Monitors have a long incubation period, so the eggs must be placed in an area that can stay suitable for long periods. THIS IS WHAT, they are looking for.

Everything we do is to fool them into thinking, what we have is what they want. In most cases, we fail and they lay in whatever they can as a last resort. Which causes stress and failure. WHICH IS COMMONPLACE with captive monitors.

For instance, when we provide a decent nesting place, our monitors can and do lay eggs every two weeks. Hmmmmmmmmmm must not be all that stressful.

So your right, offer the best you can, the entire cage. Why take chances that the smaller box you offer may work. Or work for a while.

ALso, I wonder what young has to do with anything. In my experience, young monitors are the best producers, the reason is, we have not had time to screw them up yet. All females need to be properly supported, young or old. Age has nothing to do with it. Cheers

FR you are a man of great wisdom!

But I ask you this- The spot where the female actually dug and laid half of the eggs like she was supposed to is about a foot deep of topsoil sand mix, within range of a hotspot, she DID dig there and lay half of the eggs so at one point she thought this was a good spot? Or maybe 'the best spot she could find' and was not satisfied halfway through the egg laying so she sporadically laid the rest of the eggs around the enclosure? Is it obvious that that spot is not good enough and I should provide a better one?

The female who laid eggs was said to be a year old, a year ago when I found her, so that would make her at least 2 years old. BUT, the people I received the female from also told me it was surely a male! So I am discarding all information I previously thought to be true about the lizard and starting over. She looks young?- Maybe, but, she is also a female which stay smaller than the males. My other sav is much bigger than her and I know he is at least three years old, but I don't think they are too far apart, I think the female was raised with poor husbandry in a small environment and she did not really thrive until I got her last year or so.
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Timor Monitor (Timmmmaaayy)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)

Im sorry rapstar from the picture I thought she was smaller.
Just shows how much more I continue to learn.

I hope she continues to do well
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1.1.0 YBS
1.3.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
1.0.0 Fire belly toad
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor
0.0.1 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Mountain Horned dragon
2.1.0 Ball pythons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

Oh no worries she is a little girl I agree! I wish I knew exactly how old or a little bit closer to how old she actually is but like I said I can't trust anything the people I got her from said because now I think they were just making stuff up to get me to buy her.
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Timor Monitor (Timmmmaaayy)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)