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Continuation of the "Hypo"-discussion

FastDad Feb 09, 2009 04:27 PM

OK, I´m back.

In my opinion, a "Hypo" is an "Nominat" with an reduced amount of black.
I think it is a kind of line-breeding, like they do at the Leopardgeckos or the Pastell-Boas.

The main point is, that an "Hypo"-gene should only have an influence at the amount of black and have !NO! effect on the melanin-synthesis-cycle!
Nobody would say, that the Banana-BP or the Piebald-BP is an Hypo.
The best sign for an "Hypo" would be the reduced amount of black and a black tongue(as a sign of an "healthy" melanin-cycle), like it is at the "Blonde"-Hogs, for example.

and by the way:

ALL! Toffeebellys have the Paradoxspots and they did not increase. They become only more visible, when the snake grows.

I hope my english did not fail to much.

Stefan
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Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

R.B.E.
Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

Replies (7)

JustinMitcham Feb 09, 2009 06:12 PM

I agree, my adult male is still growing and every shed 95% of him looks more like an albino and the dark splotches are more prominant and darker..very interesting!! Like "Rextile"s mentioned in an earlier discussion it will be very cool to see how this trait displays itself when other combination are added to the mix.
Best Regards,
Justin
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

FastDad Feb 11, 2009 05:52 PM

no other coments to my Hypo-thoughts?

Stefan

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Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

R.B.E.
Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

Rextiles Feb 12, 2009 02:06 AM

To be honest, and no disrespect towards you, I had absolutely no idea what you were saying or what your point actually was. But for me, I think I pretty much said all I needed/wanted to currently say on the topic from the previous posts in regards to this topic.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

FastDad Feb 12, 2009 02:17 AM

thanks for the tip!
is my english to bad? or is there an other reason why you did´nt understand it?

Stefan

-----
Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

R.B.E.
Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

Rextiles Feb 12, 2009 04:01 AM

For the most part, your english is pretty understandable. But I will kindly break down what you said and how I saw it. Please do not take offense in what I respond to as it is not meant to be. I'm just trying to point out why I, personally, did not comprehend what you wrote and what your main point was.

"In my opinion, a "Hypo" is an "Nominat" with an reduced amount of black."

The main problem with this sentence is the word Nominat. I have no clue what it means, nor have I been able to successfully determine it's meaning using Google. I'm sure it's a misspelling, but it confuses the idea of the whole sentence.

The second part is the fact that you state that your opinion of what the definition of Hypomelanistic is "[a] reduced amount of black". Well, that's not really your opinion, mainly because it IS the standard definition of hypomelanism. Nobody that understands what hypomelanism is is going to dispute that definition.

My main point, and I'll reiterate it here from my previous posts, is that what is now being currently termed as a Hypo Western Hognose is probably incorrect since these animals do not show any black at all. If we all agree that being Hypomelanistic is a reduction of black but still having black coloration whereas being Albino is a complete lack of melanin, therefore, the currently termed Hypo Hogs do not seem to fall within the Hypomelanistic definition but do for the definition of Albinism.

Now, in regards to the Toffees, from what I have gathered from several posts is that all of them seem to have some black pigmentation in varying degrees. Please correct me if I am incorrect in my understanding. I would be highly interested if there do exist Toffees with absolutely no black at all. I think it would definitely help to clarify on how to try and classify them.

Moving on...

"I think it is a kind of line-breeding, like they do at the Leopardgeckos or the Pastell-Boas."

I didn't understand this statement either. While line breeding can bring out hidden genes within a small gene pool of relative parentage, it does not necessarily equate that hypomelanism is purely a fabrication of man-made origin. In other words, while mutations can occur from line breeding, it is still a random mutation that happens without the breeders hand at complete gene manipulation. We do not currently have the technology to alter an animals DNA to produce specific mutations. All we can hope to achieve is through line breeding that something unique might hatch out, live and prove heritable. That aspect is totally up to nature with only a little help from us. That's why things like Punnett squares are based on ratios and statistics but never absolutes. It's because we cannot currently even control what will hatch out should we breed two het x het or het x homo animals. You might get all homo, no homo, or just the right ratio of homo's as the Punnett square merely suggests, there's no guarantees.

"The main point is, that an "Hypo"-gene should only have an influence at the amount of black and have !NO! effect on the melanin-synthesis-cycle!"

But isn't melanin and black pigmentation the same thing? It's all based on the protein that is activated on the genetic level on how or whether it is going to produce the tyrosinase protein which determines the levels of melanin are going to show which is dark/black pigmentation. So, I really didn't follow that sentence at all unless I'm just not comprehending my simple understanding of genetics.

"Nobody would say, that the Banana-BP or the Piebald-BP is an Hypo."

No, I doubt most if not all people would. But it's like comparing apples and oranges at this level. From the little I've seen of Banana BP's, they look like a lavender type of albino with black speckling, but I haven't seen anybody claim that the black speckling is of a paradox nature either or at least referring to the name of the animal as a Paradox Banana Ball Python. In regards to Piebaldism, that's just something entirely different. That would be like trying to say that Leucistics and Albinos are the same type of animal due to lack of melanin on their skin. They are not the same, it's a completely different genetic and phenotypic type.

So again, I did not understand your point with this sentence.

"The best sign for an "Hypo" would be the reduced amount of black and a black tongue(as a sign of an "healthy" melanin-cycle), like it is at the "Blonde"-Hogs, for example."

Again, we agree what the phenotypic definition of a Hypomelanistic animal. But while we agree that that being Hypo is a reduced amount of melanin, how does that correlate to having a black tongue and why would an otherwise considered Hypo phenotypic animal have to have a black tongue to be deemed as a Hypo. What if it's tongue is not black colored, does that reclassify it as a different phenotype? I have a picture of a normal phenotypical Western Hognose that has completely white forks on it's tongue, does this classify that is has an "unhealthy" genetic protein and therefore might not be classified as a true normal? I even have a picture of one of Casey Lazik's Hypos exposing it's tongue and it looks completely red, does that then completely quantify my assumption that these then are not indeed true Hypos?

I think the jury will still be out on the whole tongue coloration aspect of determining whether a phenotypic animal is true based on it's tongue coloration.

Last but not least...

"ALL! Toffeebellys have the Paradoxspots and they did not increase. They become only more visible, when the snake grows."

This was really the gist of my main argument before in the previous thread. One definition of paradox is "any person, thing, or situation exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature." Example, if you breed two absolute albino animals and every one is albino except one individual who is partly albino and partly normal, that is a paradox. A paradox is defined as being something out of the ordinary, not expected to be there considering the circumstances. In regards to your Toffees, you claim "ALL! Toffeebellys have the Paradoxspots". So, where is the paradox in that? Like I said in previous posts, if the spotting is in itself a heritable genetic trait that can be passed along to other morphs, then that would be interesting, but I still wouldn't regard it as a true paradox. Now, if you showed me a partly Albino and partly Normal colored hognose, like you see in true paradox BP's, then THAT would be something that would be a paradox. Even a Piebald, although not regarded or termed as such, is a type of paradox of nature by definition. But black spotting might just be a part of the genetic phenotype for your line of hognose. I'm not saying definitively whether they are Albino or T Albino or Hypo, I'm just saying that extensive line breeding and cross breeding should be done before assigning absolute terminology to them. Otherwise, to term something as a paradox when all the animals from a specific phenotypic lineage have this phenotype sounds more like a marketing scheme to me than scientific evidence. Even assuming that this is a T Albino without true empirical evidence is pushing it. Why does the animal even have to have these terms applied to it in the first place if not to try and sell more? I won't argue that it is possible that both of these terms apply, but nobody has any empirical evidence to prove their case nor has any extensive line/cross breeding been done to prove this either.

So again, I really didn't understand what your overall point in this thread was supposed to be. We all pretty much agree to what the definition of a Hypo is, just not which Hognose animals currently fit into that definition.

I hope I was able to convey to you what my confusion was to your thread without being condescending nor disrespectful as that is not my intention. I'm always happy to engage in a lively discussion though.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

FastDad Feb 12, 2009 07:54 PM

I have no Problem with an good discussion! I do my best, for explaine and express my thoughts and mark them with numbers for an better answer. It is also Not my intention to be condescending or disrespectful.

Here we go:

1. “Nominat” is an latin word in the Biologie(Taxonomie). It mean the first animal of an species, that was used to describe the species. Today it also mean the "wild/normal-type" without an mutation.

2. I realized, that we all think the same about the defination of "Hypo" . As well, we all agree, that currently all or most of the Hypos are a kind of Albinos. What about the Toffeebellys? Later!

3. The genetic behind line-breeding is called "intermedier". When you will hold or increase an intermedier trait, you has to breed a pair with the same expression of that trait. When you breed an normal to an intermedier trait, this trait will be less to see in the offspring. Nearly in the middle between the origin trait and the wild-typ.
This you can see at the Hypo and SuperHypo Leopardgeckos for example.

OK and now the real hard stuff:

at first, all my knowlege about albinism and the melanin(tyrosin)-syntesis came from the human genetic.

4. There exist two diferent cycles, who has an influence on the black pigmentation. One cycle influence the amount of melanin (Hypo/Hyper) and the other cycle is the melanin-synthesis (Albino). Thats the reason, why I say: Hypo should influence the amount of black and not the melanin-syntese.

5. every type of genetic defect that has an influence in the melanin-synthesis-cycle is called Albinism. and so also Piebald.

6. everytime, when tyrosin is present but the body can not build up (spelling?) melanin(so that an Pre-Melanin is present) it is a kind of Tyrosin positiv Albinism. It makes an purple eye-background(Retina, shown through the pupil) and replace the black parts with purple or lavender colors.

7. In my understanding (and also from Raimo and other guys around me) did paradox mean: that not the animal is paradox but there is something on or at this animal, that should not or could not be there. like black spots on albinos. And we all agree, an Albino with black spots is an Albino. Right?

8. I think we both agree (like Cazey thought), that the so called Lazik-Hypo is a kind of Albinism and not an Hypo. Therefor he can not have a black tongue, because he is not able to produce melanin.

9. Banana is the name of an BP-mutation, that makes a kind of Albino with black spots.

In the end we came to the Toffeebellys.

In my opinion a name should be a name and not a description. For example: my name is Stefan and not "big European male with black hairs". Toffeebelly is our name for a Mutation, that pops out for the first time in our breeding-stock. No matter what kind of mutation it realy is.
This mutation has all traits of an Tyrosin positiv-Albinism plus black spots (like it is in Banana BPs).

The resume is, that we agree that they has to be a kind of T plus Albinism. Right?
We also agree, that black spots on an Albino are paradox-spots, because they should not be there. Right?
Thats the reason, why the Toffeebellys are Tyrosin positiv Albinos with paradox spots.

Yes, all Toffeebellys have these spots. Sometimes only some spots on the iris. or only one spot on the belly ( ask Joseph).
more under the pic.

We had many het x het and homo x het breedings and everytime the same result: black spots in different quantitys. Thats the reason why I think (very strong), that this is part of this mutation. Because: when this is a mutation by itself, we would have min 1 clutch where min 25% of the hatchlings did not have these spots. But it is not so.

I hope this helps and did not confuse to much.
I have no problem, when someone prove me wrong, because I´m alway interested in learning something new.

Stefan
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Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

R.B.E.
Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

FastDad Feb 14, 2009 12:33 AM

no other thoughts to this?

Stefan
-----
Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

R.B.E.
Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

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