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The Camels back on this bill that keeps getting introduced....They will continue to make big deals even out of the smallest things, and heaven forbid if someone dies from one.

Here are some news clips...newest ones first...

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,490784,00.html

www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1208571923253070.xml&coll=7

I am begging you from a Burmese Keeper to Burmese Breeders....Please be careful who you sell your offspring too...Please!
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

That does to Pet Stores, Resellers, and Breeders...Please take the extra time to make sure the snake you are selling is going into proper hands. Every time something like this happens its just another nail in the our coffin....there are too many people out there that have large contrictors that shouldn't...and they got them from somewhere....So please make it a point to make sure the large contrictor your selling is going to a good home, and for those who are already doing that, THANK YOU!!!....Please peir pressure your fellow breeders and friends to do the same...Make sure these special snakes get into the right hands...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

>>That does to Pet Stores, Resellers, and Breeders...Please take the extra time to make sure the snake you are selling is going into proper hands. Every time something like this happens its just another nail in the our coffin....there are too many people out there that have large contrictors that shouldn't...and they got them from somewhere....So please make it a point to make sure the large contrictor your selling is going to a good home, and for those who are already doing that, THANK YOU!!!....Please peir pressure your fellow breeders and friends to do the same...Make sure these special snakes get into the right hands...
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>>Executive Reptiles
>>Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
>>www.executivereptiles.com

We are having a guest chat with Kevin McCurley on this exact issue. It will be Friday Feb 27. Come on in.
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Cindy
PHFaust

Email Cindy

Land of the Outcasts!

Okay....

So the lady in Oregon was handling feeder mice and then tries to handle a large burm without even washing her hands?!?!

The first thing I do before even thinking about opening the cages is to wash my hands!
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1.0 Het Albino Burm
1.1 Mojave Ball Pythons
0.1 Normal Ball Python
1.0 Albino Ball Python
1.1 Pastel Ball Pythons
0.1 Spider Ball Python
0.2 Het Albino Ball Pythons
0.1 Lavender Albino Retic

Seeking bigger cages for the family

Hi!
With all due respect & mot for the sake of argument; neither one of the stories you linked to could've been avoided with extra screening processes. I'm not jumping on anyone here and I don't want to offend anyone.

Story #1 - The family was keeping the snake for a friend. For all we know the friend could've had many years experience with big snakes. Even the parents that were arrested could've had many years of experience. It only takes one misstep.

Story #2 - A petshop owner, who admittedly made a mistake.

It doesn't sit too well with me that everytime new legislation is proposed some people want to try to blame the breeders and/or sellers. There is no way on earth that we can foresee who will eventually make a mistake or do something stupid. It is, in effect, a "shift the blame" game.

To me, that's equivalent to anti-gun fanatics suing gun manufacturers because a person that was once perfectly sane purchased a gun legally, later in life his brain short-circuited and he killed someone. OR, a thief steals a legally owned gun & kills someone in a robbery attempt and people blame gun mfgs.

Let's all blame & sue the cigarette mfgs because a family member made a conscious decision to smoke cigarettes and died from lung cancer. Oh, that's right, many people have & are. And I had the opportunity to jump on that bandwagon with a class-action lawsuit, but I didn't because that was my father's choice.

I was 14 - 15 yrs old when I bought my first Burmese Python back in the mid '70s. I knew what I was doing. Now, more than 30 yrs later and still keeping pythons I can knock on wood and say that I've never had a single close call. But I could easily slip up tomorrow. Would the person that sold me the 12-footer when it was a hatchling be responsible, at fault? No.

Every now & then when an unfortunate event happens with a venomous snake I see/hear the same thing - "Breeders/sellers need to do more about choosing who they sell to."

Well, guess what? The overwhelming majority of venomous snake bites and big snake attacks happen to people with many years of experience. The young wife in the Northeast of the US that not too long ago was strangled by her python. Remember that her family said she had a lot of experience with them. But yet, she made a bad decision that unfortunately cost her her life.

It is not the breeders, dealers, sellers, OR the animals, that are causing us problems. It's mostly people that know better but either decide to go ahead & take the risk or inadvertently let their guard down. We all make mistakes. Some are more costly than others. It's a fact that the overwhelming majority of snake bites/attacks could not have been prevented by any type of screening process.

Should every car dealer take a prospective buyer to a road course to make sure that they are safe drivers before selling them a car?

If you still believe that breeders and/or sellers need to do more I'm open for suggestions that would work. Please list a few.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

"To me, that's equivalent to anti-gun fanatics suing gun manufacturers because a person that was once perfectly sane purchased a gun legally, later in life his brain short-circuited and he killed someone. OR, a thief steals a legally owned gun & kills someone in a robbery attempt and people blame gun mfgs."

There is a process to purchasing a gun is there not? They take your drivers liscense, you have to verify your 18, for handguns its 21 right? To get some guns there is a background check, and waiting period correct? At least the people who deal with selling guns are at least trying to cover themselves...I love how every person who is on the other side of the arguement always loves to through out the anitgun ownership bit...lol

"It is not the breeders, dealers, sellers, OR the animals, that are causing us problems. It's mostly people that know better but either decide to go ahead & take the risk or inadvertently let their guard down. We all make mistakes. Some are more costly than others. It's a fact that the overwhelming majority of snake bites/attacks could not have been prevented by any type of screening process."

As a fellow "Big 5" keeper and breeder, you are responsible for making sure your offspring are put into the best care as possible, I am not saying you don't screen your customers, but a VAST majority of our fellow piers don't. I would like to see more responsiblity taken on the breeders and sellers part, this "oh once its out of my hands its not my problem"...well if you stuck two snakes together, incubated the eggs and hatched them out, you are ultimatley responsible for them existing on this earth....

WE as herpetoculturists are responsible for Burmese and the Big 5 for being in the united states...without herpetoculture the only time anyone would see Burmese Pythons would be on Boots or Handbags...But Herpetoculture is responsible for importing and breeding thousands of Burmese and Big5. Without us there would be no them...without herpetoculture...there would be no "mistakes"...with Burmese or Retics...I am pushing for those working with these species to be more proactive and selective on how many clutches are produced, and who they sell them too...To think about herpetoculture first and not the monetary gain that can be made...What the Big 5 Breeders do can affect everyone...as those are the ones being targeted by the government and media...If our fellow Big 5 breeders don't want to push each other to form a set of standards for this hobby, and this mentality of "I am going to breed a bunch of them and once they leave my care its not my problem" is not going to get my support. If you breed them...you can either be part of the problem or part of the solution...Push your piers who work with big 5 to at least try and push education and responsible ownership...Be more proactive...Dont take that attitude of "its not my problem once it leaves my care"

"Should every car dealer take a prospective buyer to a road course to make sure that they are safe drivers before selling them a car?"

What do you have to buy a car? Proof of drivers liscenes, Insurance....Credit history....You can't just go up and buy a car...

There are certain "processes" that are put in place to protect the sellers, I rarely see many people selling large constrictors taking the steps needed to make sure what they are selling is going to an apropriate home. This mentaliy of once it leaves my care its not my problem attitude is not a good one to have. I see it all to often where snakes get exhanged for cash and no questions are asked, thats for the Big 5, Venomous, Sulcatas, Iguanas, Monitors, ect..ect..Its turned into this money first, let them figure it out on their own mentality...and it will be the downfall of this hobby, if people care more about the monetary gain vs. making sure what they are selling is going to an educated, good home. All I am saying is at least try...have a list of standard questions to ask someone interested in something...you can usually tell right away if its someone who truely is passionate about reptiles, or just thinks it would be cool to have a big snake to show off to thier friends...

The point is....The Big 5 are not for everyone...and there are FAR to many people that own them that shouldn't, I see it all the time...its FAR to easy for someone to buy one with no questions asked....That is ultimatley the problem. I just hope everyone working with Burmese or the Big 5 try and make it a point to make sure your offspring that you are producing get in educated appropriate hands...thats all you can do...thats all I am asking of breeders to do.

I HIGHLY suggest breeders check out Mr.McCurely's Chat on Kingsnake about this very topic...It will be interesting to hear what he has to say. The Chat Topics are exactly what this nitche of the hobby needs to learn...In my opinion...

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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

You are correct - it is We, Us, that are in this. It's not me, you, Billy Bob, or any other single individual. I'm not against you, I'm just trying to put the blame about these latest bill proposals where it should be.

You did a better job of explaining your thoughts in that last post versus the first & second posts. With all due respect, I think you missed my point and I think you're mixing points.

Your point appears to be that some unscrupulous, or unwitting, breeders/dealers/sellers that sell to anyone/everyone are the reason our hobby and/or livelihood is in danger. I say that is not so.

You posted links to two articles and then said, "Please be careful who you sell your offspring too..." I pointed out the fact that those, and most other incidents, have nothing to do with who snakes are sold to. There is nothing to substantiate the claim you made. Nearly all incidents involve snakes that were bought and owned by experienced keepers. Again, I say that with all due respect and not huffy, hastily, etc...

Now, as for your point of breeders/dealers/sellers blindly dumping their offspring and doing so just for the money, I'm right beside you. I'm also right beside you about fighting these bill proposals, it's just that I think you're using the wrong argument or looking in the wrong direction. But back to unscrupulous breeders/dealers/sellers - I don't think there's as many as you think there are. Definitely not the "vast majority."

You liked my anti-gun argument, 'eh? Ha! Ha!

"There is a process to purchasing a gun is there not? They take your drivers liscense, you have to verify your 18, for handguns its 21 right? To get some guns there is a background check, and waiting period correct? At least the people who deal with selling guns are at least trying to cover themselves..."

You said, "At least the people who deal with selling guns are at least trying to cover themselves."

Not exactly. Those are government mandates, not self-governing standards. They came about the same way these snake bills are beginning. From fear, ignorance and a lot of hyped up hogwash. Special interest groups. Who's behind the reptile bills? I doubt that a single politician thought on their own about a need for restricting them.

But you missed my whole point with the anti-gun analogy. You said that a lack of buyer screening is the cause of snake incidents which will be the straw that breaks the camel's back with this bill. I said that is the same as blaming gun mfgs for people getting killed with guns.

And the car dealer analogy - you said, "What do you have to buy a car? Proof of drivers liscenes, Insurance....Credit history....You can't just go up and buy a car."

No, you don't need a driver's license or good credit history to buy a car. None of the things you listed is proof that a person actually knows how to drive safely. You can ride with my mother-in-law anytime you feel lucky. Me, my wife, and kids do not & will not. And I'm serious about that.

Look, incidents like the ones you linked to definitely don't help us any. And of course they'll be used to add fuel to the fire. However, these special interest groups realize that human danger is a weak & useless argument as far as debate goes, but it won't stop them from using it to instill fear for one of the world's most feared & misunderstood animals.

While I believe in some type of screening of potential buyers, it is not the answer or solution to our problem. Public awareness, teaching proper husbandry & handling techniques, is. That is why I participate here. Not for promotion or advertisement. I'm a small-time breeder & will most likely stay that way for fear of losing the passion that got me where I am today.

Technically & legally? Unless someone was below a state's legal age limit to purchase a particular animal, a seller could easily find their self tied up in court for refusing to sell a python "because I didn't feel like he was ready for one." Rediculous? Yeah, that's what American Arms, Beretta, and Taurus said.

You're in the right hunt, but you're barkin' up the wrong tree.

Take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I am just posting out of personal expereince, I have gone to MANY shows, every single one in my area and some across the country, I am an avid pet store explorer, I love going to pet shops, Time and TIME again I have seen things sold, weither its a Reticulated, Burmese, Alligator, Sulcata...ect..ect.. to people who either had NO experience with reptiles, or people that you knew where down right not good homes for these reptiles.

I feel this hobby has gotten to the point where we that are serious about herpetoculture need to start cracking down on our peers to do what is right, not just hand over an animal and get cash for it. I have seen it time and time again and it sickens me, and will ultimatley be the down fall of this hobby.

The Chat the Mr.McCurley is doing I think is long over due, I am glad he has stepped up to the plate and grabbed the bull by the horns. I have seen time and time again Burmese Pythons being sold to people with no questions asked, when I purchased mine I wasn't asked a SINGLE thing, I was given a Paypal account number, and I paid and the snake was shipped to me the next day....This happens time and time again, and I personally feel there are Far to many people who currently own large constrictors that shouldn't even be allowed to keep anything let alone a Burmese or Retic.

I am just posting out of personal expereince, The way I look at it, is I would rather peer pressure and push fellow herpetoculturists to do something about this from the "inside" or face the cold hard reality that if things continue the way they are, it will be controled by outside forces (Government).

Why do you think Mr.McCurley is doing this chat? I fully understand the idea of "Lets stand together and fight" but I cannot support a little nitche of herpetoculture if that little nitche doesn not support herpetoculture, if that makes scense to you. I want those working with the "Big 5" to be more proactive about the species they are working with, and what your doing is great, now push your peers to do the same thing your doing.

When your say "I am barking up the wrong tree" I feel I am barking up the right one...I post these things in Retic and Burmese forums in hopes that people might wake up and take back this hobby...Like I said, The things I have seen is what is pushing me to make these posts...I can write a novel with past expereinces that have pushed me to think the way I do...

Don't you think it would be a good idea to push fellow herpetoculturists to do the things outlined in Mr.McCurley's Chat?

Friday, February 27

Kevin Mc Curley
The ethics of breeding and selling large constrictors
Friday, February 27, from 9-11 PM Eastern, in the kingsnake.com chat room
Kevin Mc Curley, the mastermind behind the morphs that NERD creates, is going to join us for a 2 hour chat discussing judging your clientele, sale responsibility to areas where you may not know the laws, possible environmental impact of released animals,support post-sale, and what your rights are a breeder/seller to deny sale if you see fit -- topics that hit home for many owners and keepers as we face possible federal restrictions on our ownership.

Everyone's expereince is different, but from my expreince this chat is LONG overdue, and this "Nitche" of Herpetoculture needs a wake up call, and needs to seriously evalute how they do things. Now I am not saying all people involved are like this, but I do think and see quite a few of them, more in this nitche than any other. All we can do is push each other to do whats best for his hobby, and if that means ruffling a few feather to make sure everyone pushes each other to do whats best then so be it. I will play devils advocate and be the bad guy...if that helps get the message across then so be it.

We created this hobby, I think we should police it, not the government...peer pressure is a b1tch...lol
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

We can all agree that there are thousands and thousands of the "big 5" snakes being kept. We hear about less than 10 of these bad press events per year and we hear about every incident because the media has to sensationalize it. That's not even close to 1% of keepers making mistakes, probably more like 1/100th of a percent.

How do you weed out less than 1% by talking to a potential buyer?
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

"I will play devils advocate and be the bad guy...if that helps get the message across then so be it."

I don't think anything you've said even implies that you're a bad guy. I surely don't think you're one. Yeah, maybe some of the sellers you've seen selling big snake species without any regard might view you that way, but I surely wouldn't let that bother me none.

Those types of people come & go, and there's very little we can do to stop them. Most of them have other flaws that eventually lead to their own demise in the business. About all we can do is keep trying to inform the next generation of breeders/dealers/sellers. I hope you politely expressed your concerns to the person that sold you your Burmese python.

"Why do you think Mr.McCurley is doing this chat?"

Because he was approached by someone on the Kingsnake.com staff to do a chat on those particular topics.

Take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Exactly. I just wish people would own up and accept that there are risk in life. I have MANY hobbies that can result in injury or death; most people do. MMA, snakes, guns, football, hiking, camping, driving, whitewater rafting,power lifting, horse riding...people can die doing all of those things. That is a fact of life. Children die every year playing football--one of my brother's classmates collapsed and died of a heart problem on the field during practice. It happens. Doesn't mean football should be banned or too heavily regulated. You take a physical, pray for the best and accept the risk.

I (and many of my friends) engage in hobbies with the understanding that we may be hurt or killed while doing them. Since we're all sane-ish we do try to minimize our risk, but the risk is still there. And we do it anyway because we enjoy these activities, and because it would be a damn boring life if we only cared about saftey. Somethings are dangerous, but enjoyable enough that we do them anyway. That is our right as adults. We need, I think, to defend this hobby on that level, because it is the only intellectually honest way to defend it. We can't pretend it'll ever be 100% safe to work with hots or giants. We have to recognize the inherent danger that they pose to us, and assert our right as competent adults to keep them anyway.

PS--yeah, I vote Libertarian.

This is a mistake even if she didn't handle the mice earlier I think I mean I'm not the brightest person around, but I do not go reaching into my 12' female burms cage hands first; that's why they sell hooks for snakes wether they're in big or small cages. I use a hook for all my snakes wether big or small yeah not all the time with the small ones, but the big ones I like to get the head and a little bit of their body out before I put the hook down, I have been biten and wraped by my big burm(all my fault, feeding time and she missed the rabbit).

1.2 Columbian red tail
3.3 Burms
2.3 Retics
1.1 BRB
2.4 Dumeril Boas

I live in vegas and they had a picture of the snake it was a tiger retic. they had six snakes in all and none of the cages had locks. and your right this doesn't help. all my coworkers were coming up and telling me about it. I have a pair of burms and my female is 16ft. Tom

I have worked at 2 differnet pet stores over the last 4 years, and am a burmese owner myself. The first store I worked at my boss actually told me I was losing to many sales. If anyone would come in, and be interested in anytype of animal, wether it be a hampster, or a retic, I would make sure the people knwew all potentials of the animal they were interested in. I have had people wanting a retic walk out with a ball, and people wanting lizards walk out with snake, and vise versa. My point im trying to make is, all store pwners/employees have a choice. They have the ability to educate the customers on the potential of all the animals they sell, to ensure that the home can provide for this animal, and not have tio dump it off somewhere once it starts to outgrow that 10g tank you bought for it. Some stores are just irrresponsible, and would rather make a sale, and have a chance of more freak accidents like this happen and have a chance of their sales being stoped by new laws, then trying to edcate a buyer, and take the chance of losing a sale. We all have a choicce, and if we want to keep our pets uin our families, we a the reptile community, must start making the right choices to save out pets.