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Happy Snake Families

Tony D Feb 12, 2009 11:12 AM

I've been thinking about this concept of Frank's about happy little related snake tribes living in perfect harmony for some time. My instinct was to hear Kum-Bi-A music and turn the concept off but as I've recently re-entered the locality debate I'm thinking of it a bit differently.

I think that it is quite plausible that were we see a single large populations there may in-fact be many smaller sub-populations. These would naturally be related but gene flow BETWEEN them would be restricted relative to what happens WITHIN the sub-population. The reason I see this as plausible is because there would be an suvival advantage to such groupings. Given a sudden and significant environmental change there would be a good chance that at least one of the sub-populations would have the behavior or metabolic whatever to survive as a viable population to perpetuate the species. If sub-populations didn't exist such a change might leave behind survivors but they could possibly be too widely dispersed to be viable from a population perspective.

This got me thinking further along the lines of what would happen to these populations during less significant environmental shifts. It stands to reason that ever changing environmental conditions would set up a continual state where individual sub-populations are either expanding or contracting. If this is true then the concept of locality-matched animals could also have a temporal (time) component to it.

Example: Lets say collector X goes to CA every couple of years. In 1999, a very wet year, he visits his favorite site and collects a female Zonata under a piece of rock shard. In 2004, the third year of a moderate drought, he returns and naturally checks the same rock shard, this time finding a male. Classic thinking would be that he now has a nice locality matched pair but are they?

Suppose there are two populations on that hillside. One endures drier condition better (they absorb moisture from food better than most populations) while the other SEEMS to need more consistent access to moisture (because they have a strong preference for prey that requires more moisture). As climate conditions change these populations would mutually expand and contract and the interface between their populations would move up and down the hillside. If collector X's rock shard is located within the range of this moving interface then there is a good chance that the population utilizing the rock in 2004 was not the same as the one using it in 1999! Same geographic location, same rock and same species but different time, different conditions and different populations!

This is of course hair splitting but it is an interesting perspective on what wild populations are or might be doing.
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Darwin Rocks!

Replies (29)

Dobry Feb 12, 2009 01:28 PM

here we go again!
But I think that was a great post, and perhaps a good model of what is actually happening. However, I tend to look at it not from a two or three year oscillation, but a minimum of two or three decades.
The reason why is when the conditions are good, I don't think that the populations are moving very far, just the opposite. When the conditions are favorable the recruitment will be high and the area the population occupies will expand very slowly, but the density of the snakes increases, and still very few snakes are transient and gene flow with neighboring populations is still limited.
Then when the conditions are harsh the population will disperse with a high percentage of the individuals becoming transient, and although the population is expanding the area it occupies, mortality increases. The interpopulation gene flow then increases as territory is expanded but recruitment is very limited to a few individuals that can best find resources. The population then contracts and you are left with small pockets again that are now spread out over a larger area. This entire cycle I think would take several generations for it to be a working model, but at a very basic level supports the data I have collected over a very short period of time.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Tony D Feb 12, 2009 01:44 PM

Yes the duty cycle is up for discussion. I can see the general trend taking decades but periodic episodes where things might happen quicker are not out of the question.

Anyway, I NEED to imagine a survival advantage in a concept before I'll see it as credible. Funny how you can be thinking or discussing something unrelated and get a moment of clarity on something else. Had I not imagined it I'd still be thinking you guys were complete nuts! LOL! In any case as I look at it now, this is a compelling concept and it makes the animals even more interesting.

Spring fever is setting in. With no captives to care for, I hope to get in the field more often from here on out.
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Darwin Rocks!

BobS Feb 12, 2009 02:27 PM

Tony I saw you were downsizing etc. but No Captives? Your not even keeping your super little tri colors? shudder......
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Tony D Feb 12, 2009 02:52 PM

Down to a pair of coastals. Guess that's not "no captive" but its close.

Cool thing is once I committed to being done with it I realized my passion is for the animals, not keeping and selling them. I always knew that but had lost perspective.
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Darwin Rocks!

BobS Feb 12, 2009 04:33 PM

Wow Tony. Feeling the same way at times I don't know if I should congratulate you or express my condolences. My best to you though in whatever you do!
Bob.

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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

FR Feb 12, 2009 07:23 PM

Now we totally agree. My passion has always been for the animals. At times breeding and selling can confuse us and we may temporarily forget whats important.

Now that you have empty cages, you can come up with some very good experiments(tests).

The last thing i would like to say is, Science is to ask questions, not to make answers. The answers will come, and come again and come again. Science is always correcting itself. So, its not the conclusions that are important, its that we keep asking the questions.

If we SEE something that animals do naturally and its against what we read(science says) they do. Our task is to figure out the animals, not tell them they are wrong and the book is right.

Another statement you made is very good. This stuff makes the animals much more interesting, thats what you said. The reality is, science WANTS to pigeonhole animals. That is, seperate everything into little boxes, so they can teach it. The truth is, behavior cannot be pigeonholed so easily.

My partner and I wonder why science gives these animals so little credit. They want to make them simple and easy, but its not all that simple to live like they do. Cheers

Dobry Feb 12, 2009 06:02 PM

Fair enough. I don't have the same type experience as FR, but I have been watching a few populations of rattlesnakes since 03 and collected blood samples from many of these snakes plus a lab colony that represents ~ 25 years of collections data from the same area and at first the genetic data sent me spinning. I spent a lot of time thinking about it and this model is a very good explanation for the data. I see things much differently now than I did when I started, and field work has become much more rewarding/successful. I can go and find them just about anytime I want when the conditions are right.

Cheers,
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

FR Feb 12, 2009 09:27 PM

THere is a basic concept for the groups we see. The truth is, not all members of the same species do this, not even in the same colony.

For instance if you take some rattlesnakes, particularly the ones that are known to den. They stay at the den sight at least until the females cycle and copulate. Then they leave the area. Other types stay in the same area all year. And as I mentioned, at some times, they do one or the other, or both.

Our montane rattlesnakes are ones you WOULD THINK would den, but they don't, the congregate in pairs and trios and stay together year around.

At the same time, you can find pairs off by themselves, breeding. Not in dens. Also you find single males posting all over the place. Posting is staying out in the open and easy to see. We will see these same single males sitting and waiting year after year. But no females are to be had.

So the question is, why do they group up in dens or congregations, when they do not have too? Its a good question.

Well after years of watching, what we see is, the groups appear to be in a extremely reliable habitat. That is, its successful at supporting recruitment, in almost all years. So these areas become hubs. That is, during years of contraction, the population shrinks back to these areas. Then in years of heavy recruitment, they move out and use many other marginal habitats. That is, until they are re-educated. That is, harsh conditions kills them off in these marginal areas. By killing them off, the population is educated to stay where they survive.

This is very true and explainable with our desert tortoise. They congregate and live and breed, high up in rock outcrops. They climb up rock faces, etc. TORTS YOU SAY. Yup, torts. In wet times, they move down into bajadas, flatter grassy areas at the base of rocky ranges. As soon as it drys out, as in droughts, these bajadas torts die off.

Now the funny part, they protected the torts because they were all dying and none were found to be in reproductive conditions. Yup, you got it, after droughts they died off in the lower flat areas. So Game and fish states they have some Respitory infection and this disease is killing them. The truth is, they were dying from drough induced lack of an immune system. The individuals in the rocks were not only healthy, but producing babies like crazy.

The problem is, Torts are thought of as grassland reptiles. That is historically, they were. But here and now, they have moved into rocky areas because of one thing. MOISTURE. Rock beds catch and hold water, the flat lands do not. So here, these hubs can be thought of as survival points.

There are many things that can restrict habitat. One that is not thought of and may be the most important is nesting. These snakes and lizards are nesters, that is, they make or use a particular type of nest. Whats important about the nests is, they not only allow the eggs to hatch, but also support the neonates to survive.

We know rattlesnakes pick these places very consistantly. Whats interesting is, live bearers also pick similar places. hmmmmmmmmm see your right, this is fun. Cheers

Tony D Feb 13, 2009 08:44 AM

that was a good post! I missed the main point on the first read got it the second time around. It makes a lot of sense. There are most assuredly many reasons why populations and individuals disperse. Like many systems though there is likely a long duration background trend with numerous short-term spikes. Example short-term drought and fire during an otherwise favorable time may induce a significant increase in dispersal.

Thinking about it now there is a fundamental difference between population expansion and dispersal. Gotta role out of here but that in of itself is a topic for another thread.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

BobS Feb 13, 2009 10:44 AM

Tony You dissed your man Darwin on his Anniversary? That's cold. LOL.By thw way did you check out the NY Times article Darwin must Die? www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/science/10essa.html Thought you might find it interesting.
Bob.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Tony D Feb 13, 2009 05:25 PM

Actually the new tag line could easily be a tribute to him. It took a lot of courage for him to finally publish. It was a grad departure from the thought of the day.

NPR's been running some good pieces on him the last couple of days but I found the emerson quote and really liked it. Change is good.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

BobS Feb 13, 2009 05:28 PM

Cool. Think you'll find the link interesting too.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Tony D Feb 13, 2009 09:11 PM

That was interesting. One irony I've always noted is that creationist generally don't hold much reverense for nature while evolutionist do. Not saying this is universaly the case but the pattern seems to hold. In any case you'd think it would be the other way around.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

DISCERN Feb 14, 2009 12:57 AM

Being a " creationist ", I hold a very high reverence for nature, and actually, every creationist I know holds the same regard as well.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

indictment Feb 14, 2009 01:17 AM

They way I see it, "Creationists" are generally grouped in with the Conservative party which usually does nothing but taint Mother Earth...............or at least that's how it's been the last 8 years.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

DISCERN Feb 14, 2009 12:41 PM

In reality, believing in Creation does not guarantee or warrant any belief of any particular party. Their may be a lot of people who say they believe in Creation who belong to the Conservative party, but then again, so what? There are many who believe in Creation who don't.

It is time to stop equating politics with sound reason and thinking, since the political issues of today really have nothing to do with this subject.
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Genesis 1:1

Tony D Feb 14, 2009 01:25 PM

I think that is what I was trying to say. No offence was intended but the christian right has aligned itself with the party that doesn't have the best track record in this regard. That they align with ANY political party is the biggest irony there is anyway.

Since I opened this can-o-worms I might as well say what I feel on the subject. Personnally I see evolution as the drivng force of nature but I have a huge problem believing the first eucareot (sp?) cells happened by pure chance. Seems to me either way you've got to take a leap of faith whether you believe in chance or a creator.

I like the idea of a creator but can not "know" of his existance without the application of what for me would amount to blind faith. The only thing I do "know" is if there is a creator he wouldn't be happy with what we've done to the rest of his work.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

BobS Feb 14, 2009 02:16 PM

No offense taken Tony. I didn't think you were being obnoxiuos at all. I think you made that clear.

Now the snake thing.......That I have some concerns about.lol

I'm gettin how cool that can be about not having a lot of animals and not having to care for a bunch of critters and that interest/experience in the hobby isn't about the sheer number of animals you have. I mean,sheesh, you don't have to be around any length of time in this hobby before you see the common cycle of new herpers buying everything in sight, amassing huge collections that ultimately destroy their interest through burnout or they take so - so care of their animals and the poor animals suffer from neglect.

I'm talking about misery loving company. If I have to clean cages so should you...it's not right! lol

I wish you the best Tony. I think when we back off sometimes it's a maturity thing.

You would surely be missed though if you go too far in this endeavour.Folks like you add a lot to the Forum even if we all don't agree at times.

Bob.



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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Tony D Feb 14, 2009 02:54 PM

I'm going to be around but mostly I'll be taking pics of other peoples snakes. If I want to see some I can go in the field or over Howie or Dennis's.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

BobS Feb 14, 2009 03:19 PM

nm
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

BobS Feb 14, 2009 10:58 AM

> Not saying this is universaly the case but the pattern seems to hold.<

I really don't want to argue. I am truly tired of all the tiresome rants we all engage in instead of our appreciation for Kingsnakes.

All of our experiences are our own and I can't disqualify anyone elses because they aren't mine and I'm sorry if they have indeed been negative. All I can add is mine and it has been that people of faith whether coming from a creationist mindset or open to God using all sorts of other means to express Himself in nature are caring responsible people. Some truly walk as Pharisees, religious people that angered even Jesus,more into rules and regulations than compassion. That is very unfortunate and embarrassing for folks really trying to walk their faith and live it out the best they can realizing they are imperfect people but trying to move toward the goal.

It is at times a very difficult issue for people of faith to deal with conversations about evolution etc.

On the one hand you do not want to be a sell out like the folks in the old testament that at times embraced any old thing a new culture exposed them to and forgot about being faithful.
On that other hand some folks of faith do not want to be a part of the crowd that did terrible things to folks that embraced that the world is round(even though other cultures where aware of that fact long before the dark ages)and believe science should not be feared because truth is truth.

In my opinion there are too many powerful folks on many levels spoon feeding people what they think they should know instead of just looking at the facts and deciding for themselves.

I don't wish to be attacked or start a whole big drawn out thread. Just trying to maybe help explain how some folks feel. I respect Tony and do not have to see things the same way to show respect for the man.

Happy herping folks.Sorry for the length of the post.

Let's get back to snakes and go clean cages! YEAH!!!!
Image
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

antelope Feb 14, 2009 08:45 PM

Very well said Bob!
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Todd Hughes

FR Feb 12, 2009 05:11 PM

Hi Tony, Yes, and your coming from a biological theoretical standpoint. As in, it could make sense.

Now from me. I have studied these animals for nearly forty years(yes I am very slow) and come to your same conclusion or possible conclusion, from results in the field.

There is very simple evidence of this. Its on various scales(pun intented), depending on species. For instance. We all know cornsnakes are very local specific. Every so many miles, theres a migration of colof and patter, I.E. miami corns, up to Pine barren corns. Nearly every town has a unique type of corn. If gene flow was consistant, they would all be alike, and they are not.

With kings, its nearly the same. Brooks became brooks because of lack of gene flow. Goini as well. Not because of gene flow.

And your very right, its all about time. The phenotypes change with the years. Genotypes are most likely very consistant, but not phenotype.

Back to the field, I study many groups of snakes and gilas. I can tell where they came from in my study area, by their color and pattern. They are a little bit different. Yes, only a little bit different.

What we see is, the snakes we study, perfer to mate with the same male and return to the exact same place to copulate. Sometimes they stay in the same place, sometimes they move away if that area cannot support the colony.

When times are tuff, they move out a little more, when food is available, they do not move at all. What we do see is, when times are very harsh, they simply die in their own area. We do not see mass exdous of snakes looking for food. We do find them starving or dead in their holes.

So what we see is a high percentage in inbreeding(why dna can tell family relationships) and zero degrees of outbreeding. But, that is again temporal as you said, many events can occur to support outbreeding or geneflow. For instance floods are most like the best example I know of. So yes, outbreeding may mainly occur in short brusts, where inbreeding(family groups) is a normal day to day method of choice.

Also we watch congregations, and when these groups die off, they are not replaced. That is that area goes vacant for many years, then a pair may take up residence, then their offspring will recolonize that area. this is with snakes.

With gilas, their young inhabit the same areas. We see the young move in and grow up where their parents are.

Of course, where I live, is an extreme example of lack of gene flow, as in the desert, habitat is very spotty. In other areas, a population may be many many times larger.

But because we see locale types across all areas that kingsnakes occur, it does suggest that inbreeding or colonies are very common.

About captivity, if these animals always performed in one manner, it would be easy to label them. For instance, we know getula consume other getula, we do know that. But we also find them in groups, you know, three or four under one tin or board. So why are they in this group and for how long. Of course, most simply state, they are there to mate. But why are they in these areas for many months? we see them together for almost half the year.

Here, pyros do occur in groups. They do colonize small areas, and do not occur in areas right next to them. As do thayeri. I have seen this, but I do not know about all kings.

Not bragging, just using my experince. After one tucson show, I took out a group of herpers, so were academic herpers from texas. I went to an area, and one asked about pyros, I said go over there. Whoops he did and found a pyro. Then they asked about willards, I said because of the heat, I know of one shady colony, we went there and found one. Then they asked about greenrats, and I said I will take you to a place. I did and right there was a green rat. Then they asked about coral snakes. I said I know of this area. As soon as we got there, we found a coral. hmmmmmmmm yes, that was lucky, but I did know where they lived. Recently I took a young man out, we drove all over heck and back, I walked him to a place and said, its hot out, listen for a rattle. THere are banded rocks here. Two minutes later, he heard a banded rock. We photographed it. Then we got back in the car and drove over hill and dale. Hiked up and down and then walked a few meters up a hill, I then asked him to listen for a willards, within minutes, he said, theres one here. There was a real pretty one. Then he said, man are we lucky. I then gave him a look and said LUCK, I drove here and there, walked here and there, then stopped and asked you to listen, there was no luck envolved.

With our rattlesnakes, we have been marking them for 18 years, we have four/five basic mini canyons, all NEXT to eachother. The areas between them are merely a few dozen yards. In all these years, we have never had one from one site, go to the other site. Not once, yet we recapture them within their colony over and over and over and over. In fact, about 50% of the animals we capture on any given day, are recaptures. Again, in 18 years.

With my gilas, I have the same type of situation, We have never had one move to another site. But we find the same individuals in the EXACT same place, for many many years, our first individual has not moved in 29 years. Hmmmmmmm and gilas have legs.

So again, this is what caused me to entertain the thought of groups, yes, we saw them.

So with that in mind, I tested them. I did because I am unique in that I am both a field herper and a keeper. So I had oppertunity to test these things out.

The results are easy, hatch and raise them together and you have no problems, except if you starve them. Raise them together and you have not problems, except if you starve them. Mix those groups and you have big problems, they eat eachother.

So we now ask better questions, what do the young do when they are hatched. If there was no social component, they would simply leave eachother. Yet that is not what they do. They hang out for several weeks and do not leave eachother at all. Then it gets sketchy, as its not easy to track hatchlings. And interference is lethal to them. But we do find pairs and groups of other hatchlings, every now and then.

In fact, we find that most of the pairings we find in nature are age matched. That is, its rare to find an old male with a young female or visa versa. IT occurs, but is rare. Most of the time the pairs look like littermates.

The problem with studying this is, if you radio tag them, it mucks them up, totally. If you pit tag them it mucks up a percentage of them. If you do not break their natural defenses, you will see repeated patterns of behavior. that is, it does not much them up.

Again, this is not theoretical, as its results from actual field observation. Of course we and anyone can question what is actually happening. And we question it all the time. Cheers

antelope Feb 12, 2009 06:10 PM

Posts like that are why I take what Frank has to say with a certain validity few of us can even connect with. When you study them out there, then experiment in here, you will most likely have a better grasp of what is possible and what is not, and better even, why or why not, when or when not, etc. Many questions answered = more questions to ask, lol!
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Todd Hughes

Dobry Feb 12, 2009 06:34 PM

That was one of the better posts I've read in a long time. Also gives me new goals to meet, both in the field and at home.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Spankenstyne Feb 12, 2009 08:52 PM

Also agreed. It's great when he posts experiences like that. It's stuff that makes a lot of sense but holds more weight when it's someone with the longterm field experience. Stuff like this is what promotes advances in accepted husbandry. Gotta be open to ideas.

markg Feb 13, 2009 12:38 PM

I agree wholeheartedly. And there are others who have been in the hobby who have experimented with groups of kings in captivity and have seen pairs choose one another and stick together. Great stuff.
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Mark

FR Feb 14, 2009 11:26 AM

Once we had chosen(bonded) pairs, we tested them to see how they work. Of course only in a very simple way.

First you had to have an understanding of colubrid reproductive events and clues.

Normally pairs or groups(diamondbacks) are with their chosen female months before she cycles.

So normally, as soon as she is receptive, they copulate.

In captivity, we can change this and try other approaches. So I took females away from their chosen male to see if she would breed other males.

What we found was, early in her receptive cycle, she would tail wag, thats were a female presses her vent to the ground and wags her tail and attempts to leave(it means NO). But would copulate with their chosen male. Late in her cycle, she would copulate with other males, and very late in her cycle, she would copulate with anything, including other females. So it does appear there is a choice and a survival mechanism at work.

To be continued, if needed, Cheers

BobS Feb 14, 2009 12:16 PM

Boy This is cool stuff! Whether it's FR and the guys out west or my friends in N.C. and the East coast guys, it's fascinating to hear this first hand account stuff and see how it might or might not be relevant to indoor captives. Keep it coming! and thanks.
Image
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

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