Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,
I am slowly working on my wife to let me get a snake. It's likely still going to require a lot more time and commitment, but I might be able to start dropping more specific hints if I know exactly what I want. I have always been kind of partial to (normal phase) tri-colors as they closely mimic one of my favorite venomous species, but want to know which one would be best suited to me as a pet. I have been considering a few captive born options and hoped that you might be able to help me narrow it down to one. These are a few I'm thinking about:

Scarlet King - This is my personal favorite tri-color, but I don't see them available often and have heard they can be very shy/secretive and somtimes difficult feeders.

Peublan Milk -

Arizona Mountian King -

Mexican Milk -

Sinaloan Milk -

I realize there may be other species that are easier to care for or that make better pets, but also want to find a critter that will be more difficult for my wife to not find adorable. No offense to those great species but this is in a big part about looks.

What I'd like to know, is which species is easiest to care for, does the best in a captive environment, is least likely to stress from being held, is typically the best feeder, and is the least likely to musk?

Thanks so much for reading my post! I look forward to your candid feedback.

Jamison

I see Nelsons and Hondos are not on the list any reason why? These are both awesome looking and easily cared for snakes. Never had one musk on me and Hondurans each like champs only draw back that I can see is they can be a bit nervous as neonates but quickly grow out of it once they age and are handled properly.

I am not certain if size is a major factor as well?

The mtn king could potentially be a finicky eater and may need to be feed scented pinks, the others on your list I don't personally own so I cant speak of them just what I have read. Hope this helps.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

I knew I might catch grief for not including all of the regularly kept specimens. That was in part because I had a difficult time finding good examples of noraml phase snakes. I did also neglect to mention that I am looking for something of the smaller (preferably under 3 feet) variety for my wife's sake. I am absolutely open to suggestions and would love whatever guidance you all feel inclined to give.

Scarlets are my favorite as well, and after a lifetime of wanting one, I finally got one this past spring from Okeechobee Cnty, Florida. That being said, I would NOT recommend it for a first snake. They are secretive, and quite antsy when held. It's likely you will never find it outside of it's hide unless you flip on the lights at night. Mine took about 2 months before I got it to take F/T pinks.

Don't get me wrong, I love, love, LOVE my scarlet, but I have a couple Brooks Kings to fulfill my needs to see/handle my snakes on a daily basis. My scarlet is more of a "trophy snake" to me.

Pueblans have a habit of being very jumpy as well, and tend to crap on you quite a bit. I actually just traded a nice female away in favor of another Brooks, because who needs two pretty snakes that don't care to be handled.

BTW, these are just my experience, however, I have heard several similar complaints in the past in relation to these species.
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

Thanks!
As much as I love and want the Scarlet (it's by far the best Coral mimic), I think I will pass on it for now as I am really not going for the "animal temporarily off display" look. I'm really hoping for a showpiece animal that will be out in the open that my wife and kids might grow to adore.

Everyone is going to have differing opinions on what the "best" tricolor is. For ease of handling, care-free feeding, and richness of color, I'd recommend sinaloae or nelsoni. There are outstanding morphs of both, but the wild-type forms of each are spectacular. The strongly resemble (mimic) Micrurus distans along the Pacific coast of Mexico. They average 3-3.5' as adults.

Pueblan milks (campbelli) are also beautiful and hardy, but tend to be a little "flighty" as neonates. Adults usually settle down nicely. They're typically in the 3' range as adults.

Hondurans also tend to be flighty as neonates and grow larger than what you're looking for (typically).

Scarlet kings (elapsoides) are beautiful, but may be a challenge for a new snake keeper. They're usually in the 2' range as adults.

Mexican Milks (annulata) would be another good choice. They stay under 3' as adults and tend to be hardy and feed well. They also tolerate handling well.

There are many more subspecies in North and Latin America.

-Cole

There are indeed SO MANY to choose from Cole. I wish it was as easy as "keeping what I like", but reality forces me to be extra cautious. I knew I could count on you folks and your experience to help me weed out some of the more obviously poor choices. I understand that each snake is as individual as the person keeping it, so there will invariably be some mixed reviews. If some exhaustive research increases my odds of success both with my new pet as well as how my wife feels about it, then it is a small price to pay. I fear that if I get the "wrong one" my snake keeping days will end before they've begun. Thanks again for the great feedback!

Jamison

All of the tricolors are going to be fairly secretive. It's simply their nature to spend time under cover. Lampropeltines, as a whole, are difficult "display" animals in the sense of them wanting to remain visible during daylight hours.

I'd still suggest sinaloae, nelsoni, or annulata for a first, handlable, coralillo mimic. Which species of coral snake are you looking for a mimic of? All three of those animals mimic Micrurus spp. M. distans and M. tener, respectively.

L. t. celaenops are a personal favorite of mine, but they're fairly whippy (especially as juveniles) and can be tricky to feed when young.

-Cole

The exception here may be mountain kings.Its not unusual for them to sit on top of their hide box the whole day.

This one sits on his water bowl all day every day.These snakes are found on the crawl in the middle of the day.Kingsnakes in general are more diurnal.I have never seen a milk snake out in the day time.Pyros make great display snakes in a glass tank with a natural setting.
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

Two of my favorite tricolors would be a celeanops and tricolor hognose. Once the tricolor hogs get going they don't slow down. Another good one to please the wife would be a Chihuahua Mt. king. Western hognose are really cool snakes too.

Thanks for steering me toward the Celenops. I love the brilliant white on that snake. I really like the species that have vivid clean markings which is more or less how my list was created.

Arizona Mountian King

Where eill you be keeping this snake in the livingroom/den or down in the mancave?
One cool thing about these is that they dont hide in the hide box. They hang out where yo can see them on top of the hide or the water bowl.They get 2 - 3 feet. No musk. As babys they can be a huge pain to get them feeding and even when they do start they can still be a pain. The ones in the photos only want live food now.

Okeetee Corn Snake

This may be a better first snake, It grows really fast but only gets about 3-4 feet.No musk .

This one is a year and a half old and almost 2 feet long

Don't tell your wife they eat mice.Skip over that part,tell her they eat goldfish,lol.
Actually some corn snakes eat chicken
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

It will not be in a high traffic area, so man cave may be the better of the two options. Unfortunately, my wife is very aware that they eat mice and that is a constant motivator of her antagonism. She once told me she would allow me to keep any snake that would eat bugs exclusively. She has. in my opinion, been very unreasonable about it, but I sense that I might be wearing her down a bit and want to strike while the iron is hot.

Go with a corn snake hands down the best beginner snake around. Dont get me wrong most of the snakes listed here are not hard to keep but as novice and one dealing with a weary wife just go with the easy choice and just maybe you can get another few years down the road and who knows maybe it could be a Hondo

Corns come in so many colors you have loads to choice from, feed readily, handling them is a breeze, living requirements are very easily met/manageable and typically reach max lenght of 4 feet.

PATGC12; A Hondo bit you? Was it feeding time? Never ever had any issues with my group musking or biting.

Whomever recommenced the hognose most people are not aware that these snake are being classified venomous as they are rear fanged, I also read an article on a guy who purposely got bite or accidentally I don't recall and had a bad reaction to the venom. So why even go there as a novice?
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

There's some major debate over whether Heterodon should be considered "venomous". True, they have a pair of enlarged posterior teeth, but the toxicity of the venom (venom is simply saliva with modified enzymes for breaking down proteins) is highly questionable. Most Natricines (Garter and water snakes, among them) have numerous proteases in their saliva, and some are known for causing itching, burning, excessive bleeding, and swelling in bite victims. Should garter snakes be considered venomous? There was even a debate a few years back over whether cornsnakes and kin (Lampropeltis, among them) should be be considered venomous due to the presence of protein-degrading properties of their saliva. Where does one draw the line?

The photo series by the guy who allowed himself to be bitten is eye-opening, but essentially worthless. The mechanical damage done by the chewing and puntucing by those enlarged teeth alone could have been responsible for the reaction.

It's an interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up.

-Cole

>>There's some major debate over whether Heterodon should be considered "venomous". True, they have a pair of enlarged posterior teeth, but the toxicity of the venom (venom is simply saliva with modified enzymes for breaking down proteins) is highly questionable. Most Natricines (Garter and water snakes, among them) have numerous proteases in their saliva, and some are known for causing itching, burning, excessive bleeding, and swelling in bite victims. Should garter snakes be considered venomous? There was even a debate a few years back over whether cornsnakes and kin (Lampropeltis, among them) should be be considered venomous due to the presence of protein-degrading properties of their saliva. Where does one draw the line?
>>
>>The photo series by the guy who allowed himself to be bitten is eye-opening, but essentially worthless. The mechanical damage done by the chewing and puntucing by those enlarged teeth alone could have been responsible for the reaction.
>>
>>It's an interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up.
>>
>>-Cole

Cole I am also fairly certain the rear fangs of the hognose are also hollow not that this determines if something is indeed venomous or not as serveral reptile dont have hollow teeth but are classified as being venomous. However its even more reason to think that they evolved with a modified saliva.

Any way my point was simply why take a chance if he or his wife did get bit and did a have a reaction then guess what no more snakes.

Saliva begins to break down food before it enters the stomach even this is true in humans. I am not a biologist and don't know the fine line drawn between venomous a "modified saliva" and just simple saliva. just because it might not harm us it still might be toxic to something else.

I had a interesting talk with Clyde peeling a few years ago and we started talking about komodos and how there salivia will/should be classifed as venomous, to me its a no brainer that is how they hunt. Off subject I know but its just so bloody interesting and more reason as to expand our thought process.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Jason,

You're correct - human saliva contains a digestive enzyme called amylase, which breaks down starches. We don't have any protease compounds in our saliva.

Heterodon is undoubtedly an opisthoglyph, or rear-fanged, snake. I'll not deny that. Their "fangs", however, aren't hollow but contain shallow grooves for channeling the slightly "toxic" (to toads and small mammals) saliva. The debate is over whether there is any symptomatic reaction in humans to this saliva. I've been bitten by hognose in a feeding reaction (not on purpose!), and I had no reaction. Of course, I didn't allow any chewing to take place, either...

On another note, I'd agree that a hognose may not be the best choice for a skittish wife to come around to snakes. Their huff-and-puff antics can be startling to first-timers!

-Cole

>>On another note, I'd agree that a hognose may not be the best choice for a skittish wife to come around to snakes. Their huff-and-puff antics can be startling to first-timers!
>>
>>-Cole

Don't forget about the head butting!!

...the guy who allowed himself to be bitten did it to research the effects of the venom on humans. In order to elicit the response, he had to scent himself with a toad, and he let the snake chew on him for 10 minutes - that's a looooong time!

There is no danger in keeping these snakes, and certainly shouldn't be compared to the truly venomous snakes, such as Vipers or Elapids to name a couple.
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Diego

SWCHR

>>...the guy who allowed himself to be bitten did it to research the effects of the venom on humans. In order to elicit the response, he had to scent himself with a toad, and he let the snake chew on him for 10 minutes - that's a looooong time!
>>
>>There is no danger in keeping these snakes, and certainly shouldn't be compared to the truly venomous snakes, such as Vipers or Elapids to name a couple.
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>>Diego
>>
>>SWCHR

Why take the chance, as a first snake with someone weary around snakes. You would recommend a hognose snake to someone in the above scenario?

I NEVER said there was danger in keeping these snakes I however don't believe hognose should be a recommend choice for a first time snake owner with a weary wife. The corn snake is the better choice, just my opinion.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

No doubt about it!! If you haven't had them than it is tough to form an educated opinion on them.

...with the Corn part. I was just responding to this part:

"Whomever recommenced the hognose most people are not aware that these snake are being classified venomous as they are rear fanged, I also read an article on a guy who purposely got bite or accidentally I don't recall and had a bad reaction to the venom. So why even go there as a novice?

And yes, I would recommend a Western Hognose to a novice, provided the snake is CB and already eating.
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Diego

SWCHR

>>PATGC12; A Hondo bit you? Was it feeding time? Never ever had any issues with my group musking or biting.
>>
>>Whomever recommenced the hognose most people are not aware that these snake are being classified venomous as they are rear fanged, I also read an article on a guy who purposely got bite or accidentally I don't recall and had a bad reaction to the venom. So why even go there as a novice?

If you haven't bit or musked on by hondos just wait till you produce a few clutches and you sex them or even load them in deli cups for the matter. I have had some that were calm as hatchlings but they are few and far between.

I was actually just bitten by one of my hognose a couple hours ago. No effects what so ever. It's more like an allergic reaction that people have to them. I have never spoke to anyone that has just been bit without it being feeding time. They can be voracious feeders but they are clumsy when trying to grab their food. I also wouldn't get rid of for the life of me.

I agree.

How are those little celaenops, Charlie?!

-Cole

>>I agree.
>>
>>How are those little celaenops, Charlie?!
>>
>>-Cole

Eating like the little pigs they are! I can't wait to see what they look like when they are all grown up. I do need to take some pics of collection soon.

Come on guys!!!! Let's put this in perspective. If you want to be cool around a spouse who is already negative about keeping snakes you don't want one around with a high probability of biting and/or musking!!!! Believe me it doesn't make points in the conversation. As for dangerous bites who knows. I've been bitten by just about every colubrid type kept. Just a day or two ago one of my 4 foot Abbott phase Okeetee Corns laid into me!!! I had a trio of Abbotts (finally got tired of getting tagged and didn't have the time to handle them each day to overcome their "friskiness" spawned on the third level of &#@@. And I am allergic to everything!!! I have never had a problem with reactions to bites from colubrids (of course I have never kept one of the really Hot colubrids, ie. Boomslang, etc.) nor boids(wish I could say the same for Rats, Mice, ferrets, and, especially, Hamsters!!!!) FR has known me for 45 years or more and he can tell you if it bites it will bite me!!!! That's one of the main reasons I do not keep Hots of any kind!!! Bites by snakes are all relative to me. I used to keep SA Tree Boas--you really have yet to be bit until an adult one of those babies grabs hold. But then even that is no big deal after a while. It's all quite logical and therein lies the answer. You don't get anywhere with wives logically, at least in my experience. You have gotten the best advice that can be given. Your best odds are with the Mex. Milk, a Sinoloan or a Corn. But remember--all animals are capable of giving the occasional nip!!!! That's today's $0.02!!! Good Luck!!!!

Shalom,

Pat G-C

Well Jason, I've only been keeping these critters since 1964--but I'm still a Newbie!!!! What can I say??????LOL

Shalom,

Pat GC

LOL, well said Pat. Let me know if and when you have room for those Hebbronville SPLENDIDas! They are really the best!
Go for the annulatas!!!

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Todd Hughes

Anytime Todd!!!! Now I have plenty of room but I may have to sneak them in!!!! But they are worth it!!! Just let me know....

Pat GC

Pueblans are beautiful, but as others said mine were very flighty and musked a lot when young. They have calmed down quite a bit with time though.

My black milks are my favorite, but they get much larger than 3'.

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Joe

Wow Joe those are clean.Are they adults? Will they get dark tips?
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

They are 07's Doug. I think the female hypo is going to stay very clean, but the apricot male looks like it will probably tip up a bit.
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Joe

Joe, those are sweet especially the hypo. Here is my cleanest hypo adult Male.....Joe

Calm, beautiful, small, & are great eaters (for the most part)!

Dan Eby

...that was my thought for you too.....
either that or the sinaloans...

that is up to you....as they said...

hondos are spastic for awhile (or forever), as are pueblans at times (most time..LOL)

I would say anulata to start for you........

sinaloae bred well for me at the start of my milk keeping, but normal nelsoni did not, not sure why....I had but one female mexican ,so calm , yet didn't breed her....I am looking for them now also....

......there are many many different looking mexicans....get the kind you want/like the most....some have orange cheeks more than others, some are different shades of red, and some have different shades of yellow bands also.....alot I would not buy....

good luck..........
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...................................
"meat's meat , and man's gotta eat"

(name that movie kiddies)....LOL

.

Well, make it Mexican or Sinaloan X 3!!!!! For the past 10 plus years my wife and I have fought over my keeping snakes. My favorite group of snakes are Pits. Every time my wife has entered my snake room one of the Pits starts hissing and vibrating its tail. My wife has a Master degree in Theology yet can not be convinced of the meaning of bluff!!!!! ( She isn't real high in logic when it comes to noisy Pits!!!!) This past year I once again tried Hondos. Every time I had one of the little buggers out it would bite me and/or Musk me. And she just happened to be around every time that this show took place. Again not a positive for my wife's gaining peace with snakes. I have a pair of Sinaloans and have kept Mexican Milks in the past (I live in Texas and have found them in several different counties). No biting/musking from either. Ultimately you may have to be satisfied with compromise (we are both Pastors--divorce is not an option). That is what I have had to do in the 25 years we have been married!!!(Yesterday at 10:00 AM I had 61 snakes!!! At 11:00 AM I had 27 snakes!!! But in that 27 I have a pair of N. Pines, a pair of Dwarf Bulls from Colorado, and 1.3 Kankakee Bulls!!! The rest are various Corns, Desert Black Kings, and the Sinaloans!!!!) Stick with the two that have been mentioned and you may have a chance!!! Just my $0.02!!!!

Shalom,

Pat G-C

If Mexican milks appeal to you, then yes. IMO there is no other milksnake that is so easy and calm yet compact in size. I like all three of those characteristics in a pet snake, perhaps you will too.

And for looks, I think nothing beats the Sinaloans. They do get bigger and are active when held though not overly so.

If only there was a Sinaloan with the size of a Mexican milk.
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Mark

Gonna have to go with the Mexican milk from your list, a brief shy period when young, they acclimate very well and are very beautiful. Never musk for me, and really great disposition, never bite.

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Todd Hughes

Wow! That third pic is the best looking Milk in the World. I'll take it!

I'm not sure where to start now with all the recent posts. Please know that I don't necessarily fit the mold of your average "novice". I've had snakes before, though it was decades ago, I spend a fair amount of time field herping and I am an avid reader/enthusiast/fanatic/researcher etc. I do, however recoognize a great resource when I see one and wouldn't consider "jumping in" wihtout first consulting with the "pros".

I am concerned enough about temperament, appearance, size etc, that I wouldn't hesitate to try out a snake that might require a little extra attention and husbandry time if it meant a better overall experience for my wife and kids. If I was looking for "easy" and didn't care about appearance(beauty is in the eye of the beholder) or size, I WOULD just go pick out a Corn.

I'm really not attempting to mimic any specific species of Coral though I will tell you that the Arizona Coral is my favorite due to the very clean (absence of pitting) brilliant colors and banding.

I am familiar with the Hognose bite "demonstration" but still feel that they would potentially be a great starter snake for nearly any herp fan. I don't, however anticipate getting a Hognose.

This site has been by far the most helpful and several of you have even sent emails and pictures. Thank you so much for all your time, attention and advice. Through you, I have altered my options and narrowed down the field a bit and think I am much better off today than I was yesterday.

Thanks again for all your help

Jamison

The beauty and visibility of a green tree pythons (Morelia viridis) may make it a good choice if you're main goal isn't handling. They're a little more specialized in care than most of the animals already mentioned, but would be a fantastic display.

-Cole

Jamison, let us know (with pics!!!) what you decide on and why, and be free to be a contributor here at this great milk site. Field herpers have a lot to say here! Welcome!
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Todd Hughes

Are those things ready to breed this year???
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Diego

SWCHR

No females.....bummed to the max! Those guys are '03's and have been waiting a long time, locality is my bag, so waiting is harder on them than me. I only seem to find dor females, but I have a few more sites to pounce this spring. I almost bought a spit of land just because I found a neonate crawling across the road!!! Luckily the farmer let me set out a tin line their and so far a bull, an atrox, an indigo and several Schott's whipsnakes have been seen...I know big Momma is there, I think she lives under the foundation of the broken down shed, dang it! The last little one posted is an '08 c.b. female so she won't be ready 'till 2011, DOH!

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Todd Hughes

Keep me posted on those bad mamajamas!
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Diego

SWCHR