Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So what do you think the best bedding to use for bearded dragons is? I am using play sand right now, it looks nice but it stinks! I was using 50/50 sand and peat moss mix. The peat moss kept the smell away, but my one female digs like a fiend and there was a fine layer of peat moss all around my living room. Anyone out there got a better idea on something that stays clean and cuts down on the smell?

If you use tile like a ceramic tile you can clean up any messes easy and no mess but then your baby girl can't dig. Ups and downs i guess.

paper towel, newsprint, non stick shelf liner (duck brand at walmart works) plastic table cloth, linoleum (cut to fit), reptile carpet, slate or glazed ceramic tile, children's play sand, a soil/sand mix are all good substrates to use.

The best way to avoid odor is to clean any messes as soon as possible. A good reptile save cleaner to clean the spot after the stool is removed prevents odor and bacteria growing. Substrates like paper towel and newsprint should just be thrown out when soiled.

There will be some odor lingering after cleaning but it should go away in a short time after cleaning is done. If your dragon's stools are exceptionally foul, she could have parasites which are causing the stink. Bring a fresh sample to your vet to get a fecal done.
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PHLdyPayne

I use a mix of mostly soil, mixed in with sand and vermiculate. Pro Exotics refers to this as the "home depot mix" and it has worked very well for me. I simply moisten it when needed (every few days) and this keeps my humidity at about 50%. If your female really likes digging, I would reccomend this mix because it allows for extensive digging. Thanks.
-Ryan

By the way. I beleive Robyn from Pro Exotics is doing a chat room discussion on soils and what not on Feb 21st. I'm sure he can give some great insight on the "best" substrate for beardies. Thanks.
-Ryan.

"Best" in his opinions. His opinions do not agree with the vast majority of keepers, vets, and breeders. So take it with a grain of salt. Sorry Robyn.

Salt, funny : )

I don't sweat it, in 10 or 15 years, as general reptile husbandry penetration gets better and better, it will agree : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Unlikely in my opinion. But I like the confidence/conceit. lol.

As in the past the old 'tried and true' methods are often found not to be the best methods in some cases, I do keep open minds to people who have had success with different methods.

Using a soil/sand mix as a substrate requires more thought and consideration than traditional methods. I don't think its a bad substrate, no worse than regular washed/sifted children's playsand. I personally never liked children's playsand as a substrate but considering how widely it is still used and many dragons have no problems on it (I always find they look like they are flounding in it in pictures)I still recommend it over worse substrates like calcium based sands. I also feel the more hard packed idea of soil/sand makes more sense as i expect that is closer to what they have in their natural environment.

Though one thing that should be mentioned when using soil or sand as a substrate is make sure the bottom of your cage is supported well. Most made for reptile glass cages use a much thinner glass than fish made aquariums so the extra weight of sand, especially moistened sand, could end up cracking the bottom of the cage. I haven't heard of this happening to anybody here but many don't use glass cages either.
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PHLdyPayne

yes, lol : )

In the grand scheme of things, if I could give myself a grade on understanding, and APPLYING, terrific lizard husbandry, I would get a "B", perhaps a B-.

There is still LOTS to understand, process, and apply.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

When choosing a substrate for your dragon, ask yourself this question...what works better for me? What works better for them?

Paper, tile, shelf liner, and carpet work great! For the keeper. Ease of cleaning, aesthetics. What more can you ask for?

Why are these not good choices for a lizard? They do not or rarely encounter any of these objects in the wild! They do not bask in your living room, so why offer carpet? You won't find them on a shelf in your closet either.

Soil is natural. Soil can be moistened to allow a gradient. Soil is diggable and workable.

Ultimately it is your choice. But ask yourself, what works better for me? What works better for them?

You may be right in a sense but you gotta realize in the wild they are not in a 4 x 2 space and not allowed to go farther than that. When you use soil for the ground in a limited space you encounter more problems with fecies control bacteria control mold and many other problems. Thats why most people use something that is very dry or that is cleanable. This cuts down on a lot of the other issues. May not be the normal thing for them in the wild but realize your dragons have never been in the wild so this is more normal for them. Now like everyone says what works for one person may or may not work for another. Just remember becuase this is how it is in the wild doesn't mean that this is how it is in captivity. Im sure beardies in the wild do not live as long as beardies in captivity.

Actually, it would be very interesting to compare lifespan in the wild vs. that in captivity. Captive reptiles have notoriously short lifespans, especially in lizards.

Tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of lizards (of EACH species) are sold in the hobby each year. If a significant number of those lived, every house in the country would have 6 lizards : )

I would be surprised if the average lifespan for a captive Bearded was more than 2 or 3 years.

Lots of keepers have longer lifespan success, but for every Bearded sold in a pet shop, where the vast majority are sold, a very high number of those don't make it past year one.

As for soils, if you offer a half inch of soil, then certainly you can build up a negative bio mass. But that is negating the point of using a good diggable soil. If you use soil that is 6-8 inches or deeper, then you should not have that negative bio problem.

In our four foot cages, we never do a full soil change out. You spot clean the waste every day or two, and over time those scoopfulls add up, and the level drops, so you have to add an inch or two of soil each year, but it never smells, never goes bad or rancid.

The soil gets turned over whenever we dig for eggs, that is a stirring of sorts, but it is still the same soil.

We have four foot cages that have used the same soil for years, and it is the same clean, workable, egg laying environment that it was when it was started.

Of course, given the type of caging that many keepers use, a Vision style, front loading, 12-18 inch tall cage, running a good soil substrate is not possible. We are talking about a completely different style of caging and setup. The most challenging thing about it is that it would require drastic setup change from current "standards".
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn it is unfair for myself to compare notes due to the fact that you have been doing it for so long and yes this setup has worked very well for you. But as you said this setup is not what normal beardie owners do and the change seems to have more work with it. Now you add more work with an already hindard number of losses due to owner lazyness or bad information and you are going to see more dead dragons in a garden since the average owner will over water their soil and for some reason you will see weeds growing for sure. Now thats just jking around but very possible. Take a normal lizard owner and your going to find young adults getting them with parents help on taking care of it. The people that buy them from pet stores are not going to have all the extras most top end people like yourself are going to have. Myself i look at for my first dragon I had a glass aquiarum along with a basking light and a floresnscent lamp for uvb with sand in the bottom and a piece of wood for him to hang out on. No temp gauge or any of that becuase at the pet store they didn't say you needed that stuff. Also i was feeding him mealworms as a majority of his food source with some crickets. Now after being on here for a while hes got tile on the ground and i monitor his heat and humidity along with proper feeding of crickets greens and im building my coloney of roaches for him. Proper dusting and everything else. This could of been too late and it was by luck that he didn't die. Really it was becasue i bought a beardied dragon and not a gekco or something that isn't as hardy of a lizard. Im sure if the majorty of owners took pride in providing a good enviroment for their animals (all animals) we wouldn't have the problems we do now days. That is why I find simple but effective setups to work best for new people. Really the guys on this site are top notch though so getting a little out there works. Hope you keep up the great work I hear from many and soon we will see more postive turns for pet lizards instead of negative ones.

The best way for a soil/sand substrate to work is one that is also bio-active. This basically means the soil contains its own organisms which break down fecal wastes naturally, as they would be in the wild. This is the same thing used in natural vivariums..and is more tricky to set up for the new keeper or even the average keeper.

Tile, paper all that, are good substrates. They are certainly not natural but they are not intended to be that way. What we, as dragon keepers need to do is balance the questions..What is best for us? and What is best for them?

Probably what is best for dragons is they are left alone in their natural habitat without any human interference (ie having roads put all through their territory so they end up being run over). Thus its more a question of 'What is the best setup I can provide which meets the needs of the dragon and I am able to maintain easily and effectively?'

Thus even a spartan cage of 4'x2'x18" which has a basking spot, hide, warm and cool end with paper towel as substrate meets a bearded dragon's needs. It also meets the owner's needs, as it is easy to clean and maintain. The dragon has a bright basking spot which is in the range of temperatures he needs, he has exposure to UVB light which he also needs, plus a cooler area of the cage to go to if he gets too hot or wants to rest in the shade. He also has room to roam around and be active.

A planted, bio active soil/sand cage that is 5'x2'2' with naturalistic hides and basking areas also provides all the needs the dragon requires (warm basking area, UVB, cool area, a hide, room to run about with addition of a substrate he can burrow if he so chooses.) The cage is also more aesthetically pleasing to look at but will be more work for the owner. Bioactive substrates do need to be 'turned' time to time to ensure fecal matter etc is mixed in, moistened regularly but not too much (really only want the lower layers to be moist, with the top dry as is common in semi arid regions). But once this sort of setup is done up they are not too difficult to maintain but do require much more work to start. Plants do have to be rotated out as bearded dragons are notorious at destroying them, whether due to just trampling all over them or digging them up. Also plants have to be save plants for a dragon to eat, or at least nibble..as they are very likely to do at some point.

One thing many people seem to forget is that once we take the dragon's out of their natural habitat, not only are we removing all the variety they are exposed to in micro-habitats, food, intensity of light, seasonal changes, even just normal weather patterns (ie cloudy day, extra warm or cold, rains etc) we are also removing them from the dangers of their natural habitat. So its a benefit to them too in just that aspect. Just as we can all live in different ways and have different qualities of life, we can still live happy and healthy lives. The bearded dragon may not have the nearly identical to their ancestral home (ie the living vivarium type setup) but if all their basic needs are met (heat, UVB, food, cool areas, space) they certainly can thrive and do thrive. Many live over 10 years in this kind of environment.

Kind of the difference between us living in a small one bedroom apartment compared to living in a 6 bedroom luxury condo complete with pool and garden. We can live very happily in either environment, dragons can do. (course dragons won't want more than what they have, as they really dont' have ambitions or dreams or hopes or other human like traits. But on a standpoint of basic survival needs, they will have what they need. Plus an annoying human or more to amuse themselves with )
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PHLdyPayne

You consistently make quality, thoughtful posts.

As for plants, to make a Vosjoli style bio-active soil, you do need plants.

But for our setups, it is just soil : )

We don't use any plants at all, and for turning it, it happens only when we dig for eggs. In some setups, that is never : )

Soil provides for digging and burrowing, which is beneficial to most lizard species. It creates great mental and physical exercise that can really contribute to overall health. The mental aspect in particular is so often overlooked.

But also key is that the soil provides a moisture gradient. Vitally important.

We are not making swamps, or even mud, but having a moisture gradient is important. It goes hand in hand with the temperature gradient. They do not work well, and can be detrimental, having one without the other.

Most setups using tile or paper, or another dry substrate, are traps for chronic dehydration. Keeping lizards in this type of overly dry environment, without a moist retreat, over time leads to organ failure.

Water is life, and using a dessicating substrate over time taxes the bodily functions. Before you get organ failure, and acute death, you see impaction issues, growth issues, gout, bad sheds, lost toes and tails, all "common" captive issues, but ones that are actually addressed through a good temperature gradient and good moisture gradient.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

You said: "Most setups using tile or paper, or another dry substrate, are traps for chronic dehydration. Keeping lizards in this type of overly dry environment, without a moist retreat, over time leads to organ failure."

I'd really like to see the research that supports this statement in bearded dragons. First off it's a gross generalization. There are lizards that live in dry sand desert environments you know.

"over time" does that mean 10 - 15 years? lol.

I really don't know and i feel like were getting into a bash of how people take care of their dragons. Both ways seem to work well as long as you take care of your pets needs. I think that is the big goal anyways. I see good things out of both ways and maybe someday i will be able to make a monster cage for him and can do a half and half and see where he hangs out more or im guessing like the wild in both areas.

no, unfortunately "over time" means 1-3 years.

no LOL on that.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Then I totally disagree!! There is no dehydration problem here and at most keepers. Again I state what you are doing is experimenting. You and a handful of followers. Your sample size and time allows you to make no conclusions. Certainly not the ones you claim. Methods used by me and others have been tested for 20 years with dragons living healthy into their teens.

I have experimented with dirt, I have tested higher basking temps. I have gone away from both because of derogatory observations and inherent problems in both strategies.

My questions is that i noticed on Robyn's site they say that using play sand,paper towel and tile are very bad for dragons. I don't see how you can really state that just because you choose to raise your dragons a different way when you can see that it works well.

Scott, I read and respect all of your posts. Your a very smart guy and always here to help. However, it would be naive to think that all the posters here actually know what the relative humidity is in their set-ups, and how it affects thier dragon. I see alot of posters here with the aptitude of a 3rd grader.

I have not tested out Robyn's suggested soil mix or so I am simple speaking from a point of perspective. I watch my dragons(8 of them) everyday for about two hours on average. It is my favorite time of the day. One thing I always notice is their penchant for digging. I keep them on 3" of playsand but they will dig through that in 2 minutes, looking for more. I believe that this behavior is embedded into their genetics from day one. So I will side with Robyn when he claims that this activity is vital to good health. Soil can be kept dry on top to semi-moist on the bottom, giving them the choice. Soil packs hard, offering muscle resistance and activity. I don't think keeping soil clean would be any harder than sand, tile, or anything else. A paper towel and a little effort. Soil will increase the useable space of your cage. Sometimes I see posts like, "my dragon is co cute, he was scratching his cage all day long". That is neither funny or cute. Your lizard is trying to tell you something.

So at conclusion of this rant I must say I am glad to be a follower of Robyn and support for his "experiments". Read thorugh their FAQ on ProExotics - Challenge yourself to be a better herper.

BDlvr,

You said "There are lizards that live in dry sand desert environments you know."

I keep Sandfish "Scincus scincus" a true desert specie. I have built a irrigation system where I pour water in a tube, the water runs down to the bottom of the cage, through a series of pvc pipes with holes in them. It makes the bottom half of the sand moist, while keeping the top dry for "swimming". The point is that even a "true" desert specie does far better when theres moisture in the soil.

As for your methods being tried and proven.... I bought my first dragons in 93'. I'm fully aware of the evolution of beardie husbandry (or lack there of). If anything its been proven to fail. How many dragons have lived past 10 years? How many dragons have been hatched? Thats not success.

you can't judge sucess or failure based on a system that is out to make money. The main system for bearded dragons is based on a over breeding and lack of attention system. Look at the post on here. I have three beardies in a 30 gallon tank and i feed them dry pellets one is smaller than the other two why? Well that person has not read anything on bearded dragons and those are the dragons you will be adding to the short life span or some other issues with them. This is not proper and like most people on here that use the sand/tile/paper towel substance do not want to see those dragons fail and try to help people fix their fault. Its not the sand or lack of water that killed the dragon its the owner and the pet store for saying this is ok or not making sure this is ok.

Dude, I don't really understand your post. I read that on Feb. 13th you made a post saying your new to dragons and are having husbandry problems of your own. Its hard to argue that the grass is greener if you've never been to either side.

Dry cages, coupled with screen tops, dehydrate animals rapidly. Thats why only the hardiest lizards can withstand them (arid, semi-arid, and even then only the hardier species). Reptiles aren't like mammals. They don't rehydrate and "all's better". Heres a link to a post made about dehydration and reptiles. http://www.varanus.nl/forum1/viewtopic.php?id=1856

I would assume that beardies die prematurely through neglect (at least periods of neglect). If kept in an enclosure that doesn't rapidly dehydrate them, they will be able to withstand these periods of neglect better.

Hey I am not a member of that forum and don't wish to be so I cannot read the website you posted if you would like to email it to me alex.slayden@gmail.com that would be great I would love to read it. As far as being new, yes I am new but have read a couple of books although as everyone knows there isn't much on them and yes the information they have on them can be very subjective. I own a bearded dragon that has a bad shed problem on a 1/4 inch of tail. As I said I bought my dragon in a pet shop with less information than the book gave me. No information about soaking and information such as they like a desert type humidity which if you know the desert it’s kind of like very minimal. So I have been on here and asked questions and got answers and learned from reading the forums a lot. I also was directed to other threads that were very helpful. If you are trying to pose the lack of years of bearded dragon knowledge to how much I know that would be shameful. Also I have tried not to really get on anyone about anything and just asked questions and stated what I have learned from other people. If you want to bash me because I have not had 20 years of experience behind me that’s fine but there are others on here that have said and do say the same things I have said with tons of experience and many successes using what I have said. So yes I am newer to the forums and for sure only two years of experience but from what I see my dragon is very health and happy. Hopefully with many soaks and misting and lots of attention the part of my dragon’s tail will heal up and we can call it a lesson learned. Do not fault me for asking questions when I have a problem because at least I am searching for the answers. Also I am interested in Robyn's bedding and just want to understand it more. I have saw the site and noticed a lack of bearded dragon's on the site but really set up for monitors and snakes. I have little information about monitors and am not sure if they are in the same ball park as bearded dragons. Hopefully you will understand where I am at and why I am asking the questions. I will not just read something and throw my bearded dragon into it just because one person said so. I look for what the majority has success with and add bits that many are finding to add to the health of their bearded dragons. Really I am laid off so I have more time to read on here and my computer is in the same room as my bearded dragon and my frog (grow a frog?). Again if you have information you would like me to read from another forum I would love it just email it to me or post it up on the forum.

There was a very good article about 'gout' in reptiles which did mention bearded dragons and green iguanas (or at least had them as samples) in a past issue of Reptile Magazine. I can't remember the exact issue but definitely sometime in 2008.

There is definitely one thing I have noticed is there are more than one way to raise dragons from egg to ripe old age of over 10 years. All methods have pros and cons and there are so many different factors involved in various methods of care its virtually impossible to say with any certainty which is the ultimate best method.

The soil method developed by Robyn has worked for him quite well for many years. Children's playsand and paper towel has worked quite well for many other breeders and reptile keepers as well. Neither are 'wrong' methods. Just different methods.

Setup is probably the number one issue in reptile health problems and there is still so much more to be learned by experimentation and keeping an open mind.

Setups with 'dry' substrates are probably too dry for the reasons Robyn and others stated...as many people who do have dry setups also mist or bathe their dragons weekly. Whether this is very important to do with dry setups or just preference of the owner, hard to say. Would a soil or moist hide/retreat prevent the need of bathing to ensure hydration? Are there other factors (dragon rarely eats greens, only fed mealworms, etc).

The thing is, to my knowledge, there has been no formal scientific research done and the specific needs of bearded dragons over a long period of time. Most information comes from personal experimentation and research.

Hence these forums are a useful resource to hear what others are doing, what their views are and to constructively debate pros and cons of bearded dragon care. Then taking what is learned and use what works the best for the individual and the reptile's needs.

Also, we have all levels of keepers here, from the complete novice to the long time keeper. So more advanced methods may not be appropriate for the beginner...so basics are always good to mention with alternatives to more advanced setups.
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PHLdyPayne

Some time ago, I researched the normal humidity for bearded dragons in their natural range. Normal is 30-40% relative humidity. I think 50% is too high and puts your animals at a greater risk for respiratory infections.

I see your point about 50% being to high (respiratory problems)...however It seems to work well for my animals. I believe that if your peek bask area is kept at a solid temp. (120-130), respiratory probelms will likely not take place, atleast they have not with any of my animals.

I'm curious about your research within Australia, did you pull any surface temps in areas where beardies were basking? Also, did you discover anything within their natural habitat that you were able to apply to your own husbandry? I would love to take a trip down under and check out the native species, especially the dwarf monitors. Thanks.
-Ryan

I think you are right about the daytime, with the higher temps during the day I doubt you would have a problem with slightly higher humidity, but the problem may arise at night, if the humidity is high and it gets cool in the tank. I really can appreciate the alternative methods, but I would like to see what would happen if keeping lots of dragons/babies in a setup such as this what would happen.

I'm definitely with Robyn! Higher temps at the basking spot and soil substrates. It is much closer to their natural environment then tile and shelf-liner, and all of my animals thrive and enjoy it much more under these more natural conditions. Impactions are almost a non-issue if they have enough heat and the right humidity to keep their metobolic functions running high. And, yes, I believe much of herptoculture is lagging behind the husbandry practices that Robyn, and other experts like him are advocating. I've yet to hear of anyone who has had failures using these methods.

wes

I appreciate the support Wes, but it isn't an Us vs. Them thing at all. Really, we are all on the same team, or should be. A team that strives for the betterment of husbandry, and a better situation for the captive lizard.

Temps, moisture, gradients, it really comes down to choices.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

True enough, but we all know that "group-think" can sometimes metastisize out of control and take consensus in a bad direction.

Its definitely not a 'Us vs Them' situation. The whole reason for these forums is for herp keepers, breeders, lovers and newbies in the field to share our experiences. There are several tried and true methods to ensure good health of our dragons but as time passes and new things are tried out or old methods improved, here is the place to talk about them.

Bearded dragon care is not cut and dried and there is still alot that isn't known about bearded dragons and reptiles in general. UVB is needed but how much exposure is truly required to ensure their health? Yes in nature they are exposed to higher levels of UVB but also, they don't tend to bask in the middle of the day when UVB levels are at their highest. Also Australia is away from the equator where the highest levels of UVB are experienced. Dusk and dawn are also the times of day UVB is at its lowest when it hits the ground. Levels then may be not much higher than what we can provide in captivity.

Once air temperature is in idea ranges and dragons are warmed up they probably don't sit in direct sunlight anymore but choosing shadier areas. I think there is still much to be learned about what they do on a daily basis in the wild. Not too many people want to spend all day watching dragons..if they can even find them in the wild, when dragons either blend into their environment well or scurry out of sight at the first hint of somebody approaching.

There are also more factors than just one aspect of a dragon's environment. Micro-climates, yes, the fact soil/sand mixes work best when the top inch or so is dry with moister conditions deeper in or under hides etc. Thus they can dig into the cooler moister soil as needed. Larger cages are really what is needed to ensure a larger variety of mini environments naturally occuring which is more than just UVB exposure and a hot basking area.

To me, I think a good cage environment is one a bearded dragon spends alot of time moving about in. Time in the basking area where its hottest, then moving about to the cool end, resting and climbing on various objects in the cage, and basically being active and curious. My dragon moves around alot in her cage...sometimes annoyingly so especially when I am trying to take a nap or sleep in...and woke up to hear her running around, climbing the screen doors, scratching the back of her cage and basically amusing herself. Though sometimes I swear she does it just to make sure I wake up...because often she will quiet down and relax when I give up on sleep and get up LOL.
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PHLdyPayne

A very thoughtful response. Thank You!!!!

Chris,
You make a good point. High humidity and low temps during the night could equal to health issues. I use black lights at night, which keeps my temps at about 75 throughout the tank. I am no expert, however when it comes to my specific animals, this type of substrate/humidity has worked well. Thanks.
-Ryan

Chris,
You make a good point. High humidity and low temps during the night could equal to health issues. I use black lights at night, which keeps my temps at about 75 throughout the tank. I am no expert, however when it comes to my specific animals, this type of substrate/humidity has worked well. Thanks.
-Ryan

Hey Chris,

I keep babies in set ups similar to the adults. The differences are the babies are kept on sand instead of dirt. The reason being, dirt is dirty and with beardies, color reflects price. I moisten the sand and offer a thin piece plywood for them to burrow under. I keep the basking temp at 115-120, my adults at 135. Baby beardies are not very big so it doesn't take much to heat them up (as opposed to a 500 gram adult), therefore I use a lower temp.

I would like to know how much beardies core temps go down over night anyway. I would assume that beardies, like crocs, can keep their core temps stable over periods of time when not basking. I would also assume that it takes energy to sustain core temps, so beardies would bask, more often than not, in order to preserve energy.

My adults brumate under plywood in a deep moist soil. They dig a burrow, back fill it shut, and stay under for months. They emerge with no respiratory illnesses. I believe they use the areas of higher humidity to brumate in, in order to help slow down dehydration.

Tim

lol. I didn't go to Australia. I researched it on the internet. I did find notes where beardies were basking at surface temps. in the 140's. They are also found to bask when temps. are in the 50's.

My issue which no one ever addresses is that when basking spots are high beardies bask less, and therefore get less exposure to UVB. Australia is a huge place and Beardies thrive in dramatically diverse climates in different parts of their range. If you are trying to recreate the warmest part of a beardies range you have to consider that Beardies have also thrived elsewhere in Australia for centuries.

Basking temp. is just one of many husbandry things to consider. We as keepers are unable to come close to the UVB output of the sun. So longer basking times give our captors more time to absorb what little we offer.

Robyn claims what he does works. I don't disagree. What I and others do works as well. Beardies are a very hardy species.

Soil hides poop, so I'd never use it. Moisture can also cause mold and mildew. I'd consider that a dry hard packed soil would more closely duplicate nature.

I agree with you that your methods work (this is obvious based on the healthy amount of dragons you own. Also the fact you willingly take in sick or unwanted dragons and bring them back to health). Also I agree that 105-110 will be successful in allowing proper digestion and what not. The majority of time my dragons bask at these temps. However, they do use surface temps as high as 135 degrees throghout the day. I figure if they are making use of these temps throughout the day, I will continue to give them these options.

As individuals like Frank Retes argue, all reptiles use a HUGE temp range within their natural environment. Instead of providing this large gradient, humans give temps based on averages and what is generally accepted within the community.

I agree with this way of thinking to an extent. I think that if these animals are properly supported with good husbandry (huge temp gradients, humidity/hydration and food available when they are hungry), these animals will do the rest themselves.

Again, BDlvr you have way more experience when it comes to Bearded Dragons then I do. And you have told impressive stories on this forum about you bringing unwanted/sick dragons home and bringing them back to health. I just feel that if I have the ability to provide alot of options (different humidity levels throughout their enclosures, temps. as low as 70 and all the way up to 135, food available when they are hungry) then I will provide these options because then they can decide what is best for them.

p.s I feel like an idiot thinking you actually went to Australia haha. I just read it like you had physically gone to their home range.

The problem is like any animal such as a dog...you can provide them a ton of food and they eat it all...then you get a fat dog that has health problems just by being nice and providing more than what they need. You gotta look at those kinds of things and ensure that what you are providing isn't going to harm the animal you are caring for.

The thing is, dogs (mammals) and Bearded dragons (reptiles) are two completely different species of animals. Dogs are warm blooded and rely more heavily on exorcise to stay fit/healthy. Whereas a reptile will digest and pass food if given the proper temps.(of course exorcise is still very important). I feel like a bearded dragon could eat as much as the individual specimen could possibly eat and still stay in good health/fit if provided with the proper temp. gradient.

These animals are not stupid and are capable of making there own (healthy) decisions if properly supported. Once again I am no expert. However, I feel that if these animals are properly supported and given as much food as THEY feel is necessary along with a good temp. gradient, they will thrive based on making their own decisions. Thanks.
-Ryan

Dogs and bearded dragons respond to food in different ways completely. It doesn't help that dogs by instinct will 'wolf' down all the food they can get whether its good for them or not. When a good full meal in the wild may come once a week, this instinctive behavior to gorge is rather ingrained.

Bearded dragons on the other hand, will eat anything that they can and like and most will stop eating when full. However they are not getting anywhere near the amount of exercise they would normally get in the wild. They spend alot of their time chasing insects, finding good greens to eat, avoiding predators etc. A 4'x2' cage really doesn't provide alot of exercise room..when int he wild their territories may be 30 square feet.

Also, obese dragons do exist in captivity and in quite high numbers. I am sure there are plenty of dragons who die early due to being over weight (ie fatty liver disease and other obese related health issues). Thus I really think owners should be aware that too much food isn't good for dragons either. For the first year and half of a dragon's life, feed it as much as it will eat in 10 minutes, leave greens available all the time. After dragons are over 18 months, insects should be just a few meals a week or a portion (roughly 10-20%) of their daily food intake.

The exception would be females who are laying eggs (fertile or infertile) as they do need more calcium in their diets, and extra food to support egg laying. But for males and non egg producing females, meals should be monitored and weight controlled. As BDLvr emphases so much as being very important,a good gram scale and regular weight taking is a very useful tool for keepers to do. Regular weighing (once a week is probably enough, though once or twice a month would do too) and recording can allow changes in weight to be noticed right away. Reptiles are notoriously bad at showing physically how much weight they lost till a significant amount has been lost. However if you weigh regularly you can see if they suddenly drop 50g or more over a weeks time. OR even gained that much under the same amount of time. Large changes in weight can indicate a gravid female, a sick dragon, or a dragon getting far too much food and is increasingly getting fat.
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PHLdyPayne

I 2nd LdyPayne's post. Dragons well taken care of, overeat, for the amount of exercise they get! Especially live food. So many people say their dragons are not good salad eaters and that's because they are being fed too much live food. In nature plants are pretty much always there and easy to eat. Prey is much harder to find and catch in the wide open expanse of the Australian outback. Here it either comes in a dish or it walks around the perimeter of the enclosure waiting to find a tongue to stick to. lol.

Someone once posted, proud that they had a male dragon that weighed 750 grams. I felt bad but posted that that was too heavy for any male. In nature dragons look like they are practically emaciated. I weigh and record all my animal's (except my 15 pound Iguana)weight each Sunday. Each has a target range and their food schedule is determined by that. I have every animal's weight, every Sunday, without fail for over 4 years now, except for brumating animals. It really helps to have something to look back on when a problem or concern arrives.

I agree and if your dragon is not eatting the veggies then you will have to work other ways in for water. Most dragons will get the majority of their water from the plants they eat seeing as though 90% of a plant is water well in that area at least.

Actually, bugs like humans are mostly water too.

Yes true they give off water but not like veggies

The relative humidity that you researched is part of the overall environment that wild beardies are trying to cope in. You should also research the micro-environments that the dragons search out, i.e. the humidity in burrows, cracks, crevices, tin sheets or where ever beardies spend a lot of time. Then you have to take in consideration the time of year and what it is that the specific animal is trying to achieve (digestion, water retention, brumation, etc.).

Humidity also varies in their range and in wet or dry seasons. Some wet seasons are more dry than others. The dry enclosures most keepers provide, duplicate the dry season. Simply because there is no area of any real humidity. Beardies brumate during the dry season. I try to duplicate the wet season. I offer humidity choices from bone dry (by the lights) to more humid areas (under boards and in burrows).

The big thing is about this whole thing that has been said a couple of times already is that even in AUS they have seasons. If you don't want to change your cage setup all the time to react to whats going on in AUS then your just doing one part of their normal season. Really from everything I have read is that beardies are hardy and they will usually live even with less than optimal conditions.

Excellent info Virus

If you were using something more for digging would it be a good idea to use a clay matter for the bottom so they could dig a den and then a soil matter or does the soil mix act much like a clay matter? Kinda shootin towards Robyn's answer on this one. I am very interested in seeing more i guess i should check out the website.

What was the point of this, post? None of you, not one apparently, has seen either the Coastal or Inland BD in the wild? Rankins? Wow I bet the Panther Chameleon community would laugh (in general not just KSnake). And the saltwater fish one too, because we spend so much time RECREATING. Now this thread is ridiculously long and I haven't completely followed it because it's rather silly but I did read most.

(I keep three reefs, panther and various horned chameleons ((Kinyongia (formerly Bradypodian) and Trioceros)), I've had many BD's and still do, obtained recently a turtle and I'm an avid vegetable gardener. I'm not an aficionado but at least I've BEEN there and seen them run around on rocks with clay in between (I had BD's at home then too so I was very interested, some of them seemed to be rankins dragons but impossible to tell as they were somewhat hard to photograph on red terrain). Trust me, it isn't tile. Nor is is soil per se. Most of you need some kind of disclaimer to advice, so here it is.)

If you recreate nature obviously you want to make the P. vitticeps enclosure with a particle substrate. This keeps the immune system up (presence of bacteria vs. not present [chemical scum is worse than bacteria for obvious reasons IMHO]) but remember that the rocks are more or less "emerging" from the ground. IT IS NOT THAT DRY GUYS! It rains for days and days in part of the year in Qland and NSW, they are found in areas where this happens (and farther out from the coast) and it's not unusual for humidity to stay high for days at a time.

If you like to keep things kennel sterile. Use tile. There you go. No bacteria, no good bacteria and no bad. congratulations. please don't see this as bashing as I will always keep dragons who just plain eat the dirt in this setup. it's just too sterile, as a reef keeper this scares me because of chaos theory. lol jk

The "actual" bearded dragon from the coast deals with leaf litter as far as I could see. only saw one the whole month, was perched on a tree (vertically) near an area where we were spotting swamp wallabies. Yes, swamp. Seemed more like a beautiful rainforest than Alabama/Louisiana though lol.

Am I saying you should change your methods? absolutely not. But I'll always use HDepot mix (didn't know robyn was attributed with it, so thank you very much. and keep working at fedex I'm pulling for ya'll, great thing for the community) and anyone who does is recreating a natural habitat. Anyone who uses non-particulate is not.

Should be noted, I never saw a dragon on "sand" in fact Australia is basically sandy at the beaches only, with hard packed (but easy to loosen) soil that is infertile (compared to Kansas where I am from everything is) and easy to break apart. They also tend to take shelter in a "rockstack" so tile is absolutely fine. But don't dog my methods, I believe my dragons are very happy, seems like that's the only thing these forums do.

Btw, the Carpet Pythons are to die for. Almost ran over one on a bike. For those of you who would rather discredit my reasonable opinion by saying I wasn't there, proud Alum of People to People Eastern Australia Student Ambassador program 2004.

"Don't hate. Recreate."

And a great reef adage (to apply to Robyns soil idea) "The solution to pollution is dilution!" In an abundance (a bag of soil), Bacteria balances. It's what it does.

Since soil doesn't impact as bad (they taste the dirt no matter what, right? it's dirt and if it's passable then no problemo, no? sand is inappropriate and unnatural to be in their body though from what I've gleaned over the years, use very little. they also don't live in a dry peat bog believe it or not! dry peat is horrible for ingestion too, worse than regular soil for sure. again IMHO)

So "Take action against impaction!"

The more clever way to go about this thread (*cough*flame*on*proexotics*cough*?) would be to state the best brand/coolest tile. and the most efficient/natural/clean soil to staple your mix (make me happy and tell me there's something I can plant my potted plants in that my beardies will like... lol).
please don't see this as me bashing those who care about cleanliness, this thread has ticked me off for too long because of "bacteria"=bad? that's foolish. More good bacteria live in soil (good soil that's established) than bad by a long shot. Helping your bearded by giving him his G-d-given immune system.

Please add a sprinkle of humbility to this where needed, I'm an avid keeper but don't really post because I'm easily riled (ya ya, Kansas has an accent. my location means I know dirt though).

Oh and for you "bubble-dragon" sterile cage fellows, how do I get bacteria free potted plants for my Ambilobe's, with tile? How do I get bacteria free live-rock for my BTA tank?! Do you have a bacteria free shower even? Or does it have bleach residue, cleaning products and grime from chemical/tile use bacteria that survives? This is how you keep your animals on residue? sorry that I don't agree. Do you have a light that shows this stuff? shine it in your beardies tiled world. Now get a bacteria light, shine it on my soil. I dare you. I also dare you to make a real productive thread out of this hot mess of stinky opinions.

First off if you say, "im sorry but your retarded" it is still offensive.

Quote, "in fact Australia is basically sandy at the beaches only"

Now go to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Australia-climate-map_MJC01.png

Its a nice map that shows AUS is more than half desert.

from the AUS ZOO
Habitat
Inland bearded dragons inhabit areas from open woodlands to arid scrub and desert regions located in Australia’s interior. They spend a good deal of time perched on bushes, logs, rocks and structures like fence posts, scanning their territories for food and other bearded dragons. They bask in the sun during mornings and afternoons.

Yes they can live in a area that has rain fall and yes they can live in an area that has desert. The fact is you saw one beardie and assumed they all lived like this. They do not all live one way and live im many different inviroments. Please enjoy the threads and glad your not bashing anyone.

>> First off if you say, "im sorry but your retarded" it is
>> still offensive.
>>
>> Quote, "in fact Australia is basically sandy at the
>> beaches only"
>>
>> Now go to
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Australia-climate-map_MJC01.png
>>
>> Its a nice map that shows AUS is more than half desert.
>>
>> from the AUS ZOO
>> Habitat
>> Inland bearded dragons inhabit areas from open woodlands
>> to arid scrub and desert regions located in Australia’s
>> interior. They spend a good deal of time perched on bushes,
>> logs, rocks and structures like fence posts, scanning their
>> territories for food and other bearded dragons. They bask
>> in the sun during mornings and afternoons.

Err, you do realize that most deserts are not sand, right?

Luke

You do realize that even the soil in AUS is mostly sand right? So when you see an area that has plant life it is still very sandy of an area. Oh and if you got to AUS at the time it rains for two days straight it will look more green than if you go when there has been little to no rain. Think how much water came when it rained and in most of the deserts they avg 10n at most all year. So you get 3in at once and more plants will be growing. Im not going to argue it anymore have a good day sir.