Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Since Jan 1st, I've been cooling the room I keep my adult kings in with outside air. Temps have ranged from 50-65 since, with very occasional spikes into the 70s. So far so good. All my kings are from Florida, and even with the spikes into the 70s, this is still a more prolonged cold than they'd get in FL.

Last week outdoor temps rose and the room got to 75 . All the snakes were active and moving around in their cages. Just to see what would happen, I put few pairs together. A few showed no interest, a couple had definite interest from the males, and one pair locked up.

My plan was to warm them up at the beginning of March after I get their heat tape installed. Two months seems to be the minimum brumation according to the breeders I've talked to. I'm still going to wait till March, as I don't have their heat tape installed, but it seems as though I could warm them up and start feeding them now and they'd ovulate / breed as planned.

Any thoughts?

You would probably get a lot of successful hookups even if you woke them up now-indeed, many folks give their snakes little or no brumation and still report great success. But I find for myself that a fairly long brumation (7-12 weeks) leads to lots of fertile egss, and, even if not strictly necessary, helps me time introductions, etc......

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Brad,
Albino and hypo splendidas???? Good guess?
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Genesis 1:1

On the money!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

This is what I find odd here, theres little biology and a lot of hocus pocus/guessing.

In the first paragragh, there is rationalization. That is, your hoping what your doing has something to do with nature. Its more or less meaningless. No what your doing is not what they do in nature, nor does it have to be. So its only rationalization.

Its so very very simple. When a female is ready to copulate, she contains easy to feel ovum, so you palpate them. You feel ovum they WILL BREED. No magic, no guessing, just plain simple husbandry. Heres the funny part, you can do this any time of year and you may be very surprised as to what you find.(actually, a female will copulate about 5 days before palable ovum can be felt) Once you can palpate them, you have about two weeks, so there is no problem waiting until you can feel the ovum.

Second, you said your waiting until march or because of the installation of heat tape. Sir, no offense, that is totally meaningless to the snakes. They will cycle based on readiness. When they are ready to cycle, they will, it will not matter what month or if heat tapes are available. As your one female may have told U.

To cycle does not require the addition of heat, a slight raise in outside temps will do. It takes some heat to develop and keep the ovum/eggs viable.

I hate the term hibernation/brumation, the reason is, keepers use them out of context. For instance, colubrids use 55 to 65F as a base temp year a round. In otherwords, they are active at these temps.

Hibernation is taking an animals metabolism below where it normally can be active, to decrease body functions to a point, they cannot move normally. Lets say, below 50F, with 50 to 55F being questionable. I say, lets say, because I have recorded many species, including boas and pythons out and active at temps slightly above 50F

The REAL point is, snakes DO NOT REQUIRE HIBERNATION to reproduce. In fact, its can be deleterious to reproduction. Hibernation is a behavior to withstand, extremely poor conditions. Brumation was a term used for escaping hot and dry. As in doing down to avoid inhospitable heat and dryness. That term appears to have changed.

The point is, it does not matter what you call these things you think your doing, IT does matter, what they the snakes are doing. So a simple husbandry trick is to palpate for ovum, tells you when they are ready to copulate, and it does not matter what you say they are doing. In other words, its accurate in spite of our errors and boy do we make them.

The funny part is, its so easy to do and does no harm to the animal, not in the least. The key is DO NOT SQUEEZE, simply let the female crawl thru your fingers, as if your fingers were a crack slighly narrower then she body. Consider, they do this in nature on a daily basis. As long as they move their body throught your fingers, its fine. You will be surprised what you learn, its a whole new world. Cheers

You get hatchlings and matings at different times of the year, even in the dead of winter?

I tried the high heat source and very cool side as best I could with an adult pair of Pyros and they have constantly for the most part chosen to stay coiled in the coolest part of their cage. I figure I'm doing something wrong and will still try to work on that. A curious thing I see them do from time to time. more so in the fall, is to have the top part of their bodies out of a hide(six to 8" and stare straight up like a getula would looking to be fed on a cage with a screen cover but these guys are in a 3' Vision with a solid top.

Any opinions as to what that might mean?

Maybe they are looking to move up to a higher area of a rock with warmer temps than I am providing? The available hotspot is well over 100 degrees cool spotlow 60s to high 50s .

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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

I meant to add that I am considering going for a 6' Vision where I could perhaps try to have a larger temp gradient than what is possible in just a 3' Vision. I am intrigued by the idea of supporting them in being active all year but I am having a hard time with the actual execution.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Bob, is your light on a timer? It doesn't appear they can move up or down, just to 3 different sides. How are you getting the cool side temps, room temp? Those snakes use cracks in nature, moving up, down, sideways, all directions using a heat sink to achieve the temps they want, when they want it. Looks like a pretty good setup, just some questions and possibly some other ways to look at it. I will be getting my first look at Arizona this year and try to see for myself if I have "grasped the concept" yet, lol! (said the coastal islander!)
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Todd Hughes

Hi Todd. Your right.To be fair, I think I need to incorporate some grape vine etc. to allow them access to get closer to the light but the heat pad placed under the large hide under the light shows 113 with the temp gun and the cool moist hide is low 60s high 50s with the temp gun (ambient cellar temps when heat is not boosted for laundry/workbench type chores).

I had the pleasure of a short trip out west a few years back. Mt.Lemon.The Desert Museum, Rattlesnake museum etc Arizona and New mexico but it was so different from out here in the east and my time was so limited I couldn't do much but take quick pics. It was beautiful! Not enough of a stay to really get a feel for these things folks on here talk about.If you get a chance to visit the Desert Museum I think you'll really like it.

Loved those Splendida pics of yours. Folks like me that really can't see much get a real vicarious thrill from folks like yourself, FR, and everybody else posting first hand observations in the field.

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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Hi Bob, your cage is nice from a human point of view, but very alien to pyros.

First you treat your cage as from the surface of the ground up, which is a bit like locking you in a playground and never letting you go in your house. Do you get that.

Pyros live and breed and feed, 99.99% of the time underground or IN. that is, inside rock crevices or inside dead hollow trees. They only come to the surface for a very short time and for special occasions. Like you going snorkling.

How about if an alien caught you snorkling and took you and placed you in a cage which was like where he caught you. You know, swimming in the ocean. Well thats what your cage is to a pyro. They are actually a snake the spends as much time on the surface as you do in the ocean.

What I am getting at is, the pyro may not understand the tools you are using and what they are for. Mainly because they do not fit what a pyro is looking for. Nearly always, pyros pick sealed areas to live in. And they pick nearly sealed areas to thermoregulate in. I have posted a pic of a pyro in a crack. They only use those under very rare conditions. But they thermoregulate on a daily basis.

So please try to think about what the animal actually does.

IF you understand that, you can offer tools that is will use, even if its not what it would actually do in nature.

So it boils down to not just what it does in nature, but how it does them. Its the how thats important here.

So your expecting your pyro to bask in the open, and yes, even in the half round thing, its open. They bask coiled tightly in something. Like under bark, or in a tight crevice. Or in a hole just under the surface of the ground.

So what you have is loose hides with lots of air movement, and thats not what they do. They pick tight areas with almost no air movement.

Just for fun, take a piece of meat and stick it under that lite and see what happens, do that for me will you. Tell us what happens.

And yes, I have produce getula in every month of the year, that is, a single female has produced offspring in every month of the year. And lots of females have done that for me.

But thats not really the point, in nature I watched colonies of pyros and watched their reproduction. They produced hatchlings from june to november. more later, cheers

Frank I see what you mean. You'd get beef jerky on a stick. The problem I am havng with this is trying to incorporate these sound field observations into something realistic in a typical herpers cage environment(mine).

After reading your post about alien analogies it made me think of some alien catching a roofer while roofing a house. The guy lives IN the house not ON it.(I'm getting it a little? ) This also makes me appreciate the concept/simplicity behind a nice sizeable/spacious rack.It would be like the above aliens providing a slide out 1st or 2nd floor of a house complete with a running water bathroom, warm living room, bedrooms(hides)and a cool back porch (Cool hide).

I hear what your saying I think?

I looked at some monitor sites to try to understand some of the things you are proposing.Implementing those things in a eye pleasing enclosure is hard to incorporate and seeing the animals is quite a bit of the enjoyment. Certainly you want to meet their needs.

Pics of those large type monitor setups are functional with those slanted Retes stacks and the monitors wedged into them on dirt foors looks comfy but, Wow.OOOOOgly! (I know, there is a beauty in functional) lol.

The other concept of that filling a cattle trough with 800lbs of dirt. PVC pipes into boxes buried into it and a glass box stuck on top to maybe once in every great while see the tail of a Pyro. well that also is kind of ....not practical for a typical herper and at least to my tastes also OOOOOOOgly. No insult intended.

The other thing I have seen that incorporates those things is where a zoo uses fibeglass etc.in a glass front enclosure and simulate the tunnels and chambers that prairie dogs and the like use. VERY eye appealing but so undoable for a limited skilled hobbyist like me.

I am percolating on the things you say and appreciate your thoughts as I'm sure a lot of other folks here do to.

thanks,
Bob.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

You enjoy SEEING your snakes... but you own one of the most secretive reptiles in the world, whose idea of a terrible day is to be SEEN!

Also, you are simply not being creative enough in your vivarium ideas.

You seem like you have the snakes interests at heart so I will give you advice... If you want a display animal then you picked the wrong species. If seeing is the main importance for you than pick a more active open species to work with. If you enjoy pyros, and you truly want to care for them in a way that is good for THEM, then you will have to sacrifice some visual encounters.

Make a naturalistic terrarium with a deep substrate and numerous rock piles. The terrarium itself should be visually pleasing too and seeing the snake is just a bonus.

I put a baby cal king in this 10 gallon right next to my bed. He did AWESOME in it. At first I never saw him. As he grew and I learned his schedule I would see him every few days.

Another idea for you... ditch those "hide boxes" They do almost nothing. replace with flat boards, flat stones, anything else

thanks
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Zach. I appreciate your input but I beg to differ. I realize ANY snake in a wild state does not want to be SEEN. SEEN = eaten. That's a given.

My experience. And yours may in fact be far greater than mine, is that one of the nice things about Pyros is that they are not usually real nervous animals and seem to be smart enough to early on realize you are not a predator but a bringer of food and and the person who makes it easier to breathe (waste gasses can be heavier than air and thats GOT to be awful to breathe in for any animal from just a normal husbandry point)I'm not saying I'm welcome in their world but tolerated.

While I must be open to the idea that mine normally display well in cages (I have others) perhaps because they are just out looking for more suitable places to hide that I am not providing(my possibel bad) I get the impression they are one of the more appropriate display Lampropeltis there are in a captive environment.

We all have to balance our desire to see them and provide good care. In the past when I have done very elaborate cages like you picture I have asked myself "what is the point" I never see them and when I do they are hissing,musking and biting not to mention I've almost squished them when they tunnel under heavy rocks or when trying to find them when showing them to other hobbyists on a visit over. Honestly I have to ask myself if I really care about them why am I even keeping them in captivity in the first place?

Thanks for the input. I think it's important we consider all these things.

Bob.

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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Actually, Bob's pyros do seem like they are in a good cage, with requirements being met, and they appear very healthy and I think that if his snakes are eating, growing, and thriving, he has done a great job.

It is very easy to make judgements about one's collection sitting behind a PC, without being there to be able to witness it all. The proof we have, with Bob's pics, seem to speak for themselves.

Good work Bob!!
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks Billy! Hey I'm waitng for the new rack to be delivered from ARS today. I'll let you know how it goes. Feel like a kid on christmas eve. lol. Hope all your Pits are doing well.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

All I said is he should reconsider his hide boxes.

And yes it is pretty easy to sit behind a computed and be a tough guy.

Come find me sometime. We can sit down and go through the search engine and I'll defend anything I have ever written. I don't type what I won't say to your face. Its actually a pretty big pet peeve of mine. Notice how I use my real name DISCERN? I give my phone number to anyone who wants it. PM me and I'll give you mine. HAHAHA.

Stop trolling I was just trying to give a guy (not you) some helpful advise.

If youre interested in learning anything or contributing productively to the conversation see what I wrote down below to Bob.

Cheers
Zach Whitman

" All I said is he should reconsider his hide boxes. "

Actually, that is not all you said.

" And yes it is pretty easy to sit behind a computed and be a tough guy. "

But I never said that. I said, and I quote, " It is very easy to make judgements about one's collection sitting behind a PC, without being there to be able to witness it all. " That is all that means. Nothing else.

You seem to have taken what I have said a bit too far my friend. Time to calm down.

" Stop trolling I was just trying to give a guy (not you) some helpful advise. "

I was not trolling at all, and you know that.

" If youre interested in learning anything or contributing productively to the conversation see what I wrote down below to Bob. "

I did see it, and yes, just like you are assuming too much with my post, you assumed too much that he has a lot to learn, like you said in your post to him.

Zach, I always like your posts, and that is also why your post to him was so surprisingly appearing to be rude. If I misinterpreted, I apologize, but you should do that as well, since you took just about my whole post wrong.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

Zach,
I remember keeping two hatchling prairie kings in a tub of soil. I almost never saw them out except at dusk, briefly. Those things grew and thrived in nothing but soil. Really fun.

Love your kingsnake tank there.
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Mark

When it's not winter this snake is out for hours chillin out looking at the goings on outside his cage maybe hoping for some food. Unless I'm completely missing the ball on this observaton and all my other Pyros do this to, He's not endlessly pacing,rubbing his nose raw, not rattling and musking or cowering from under a rock frightened he's about to become lunch. Can you say the same for your Cal. King when you go to take him out? My experience with the heavily decorated cage like you have is to get musked, bitten and to completely freak out the snake a lot of the time. IF that is the case and thats an IF, Is that fair from a keepers perspective to cause that much stress to your animal? I can generally reach in and take their water bowls and clean and refill witout a flinch even right next to their heads.

I am not a newcomer to the hobby so even though these fake rocks/hides are something that any newcomer can buy at a petco I have purposely bought them rather than the weight of the real thing.I have also purposely left it sparse in there for maintenance sake. Having to remove 3 potted cactuses,2 branches and several peices of bark and slabs of rock every time I change the water or offer food or check on the animal was a deliberate choice not a lack of imagination.

Even if these guys in the wild spend 99.9% of their time underground my animals appear to be adapting just fine and do not act as one of the most "secretive" animals that are out there.
They are not showing any signs of major stress I can see and most folks Have this same experience in captivity with them. I am open to always improving things. I was just using these guys a an experiment on FRs support them all year maintenance program proposal.

Bob.

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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

One thing is for sure........your pyros are either very sick or they are very well adjusted to their surroundings (including you).

For some reason I doubt it's the first
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

nm
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Your set up is not horrible. I never said that. But your original post is a begginer question that shows that you still have a lot to learn. I appologize if I insulted your level of experience. In fact your temperature gradient (the single most important part of herp keeping) is awesome.

Your snake sits out in the open because it has been accustomed to do so over its life. It had a choice, sit out in the open (I would consider even your hide boxes open), or die of stress. Snakes (even delicate ones) are hardy. Some snakes can't do that. Those die young in most peoples hands.

I recently got a california kingsnake that had been kept on newspaper with a water bowl and a branch for over 10 years. It was reasonably healthy appearing (a little obese). I kept it like I do my other cal kings with a deep layer of aspen and a large board covering most of the bottom. He did not know how to bury himself. And he sat out in the open. So I gave him some flower pots. He didn't use them either. Now I repeat - he is perfectly healthy and he will likely breed no problem. He has no idea how to act like a "normal" snake. Does that mean that I should recommend to people that they should keep snakes with no hides? Why not? It obviously can work just fine.

Your kingsnake has successfully adapted to its environment and is obviously thriving. He looks beautiful. Your cage is by far better than most peoples. If it works for you than thats fine. Don't change a thing. But is it whats BEST or is it whats good enough to prevent disease?

He certainly doesn't act like any pyro I have ever seen in the wild.

If you want to learn more about your snake than the biggest area you can improve are the hide boxes. If your snake isn't completely brainwashed he will use them more and you will see him less. Sad but true.

Lastly I want to comment on what you said about handling and stress. In short YES YES YES. I believe that a snake that craps its pants every time you change the water bowl is not in a healthy situation. All of my snakes are accustomed to me and it has nothing to do with how much they hide when in their cage.

That baby cal king from the vivarium... I put him in and didn't touch him or anything else in the cage except the water bowl for over 6 months! When I moved, I waited until I saw him, opened the cage, and picked him up. He was fine. When I broke down the cage I found an amazing network of tunnels and several shed skins.

Zach to be honset I thought your post was a bit condescending and sort of like an FR impersonation. A lot can get read into posts that wasn't meant the way we read it. The Pyros don't JUST sit out in the open they move from warm to cool to moist cool to dry cool.They are not in my opinion doing the Cage crazy thing FR talked about where snakes are acting like they are sort of out of their minds and not adjusted properly.

Zach, I think they don't act like any Pyro you've seen in the wild because they are captive bred. I'm sure they have a lot of the same instincts as Wild brethren but they have never been hunted down and had close calls by predators. Never even got a wiff of a predator with that Jacobson organ and get their food hand delivered pre killed, sort of like Dominos. They have lived a pampered life like most everybodies snakes here and I think they are smart enough to adapt and lose a lot of their normal fear. Kind of like the birds and squirrels that get fed in the park by people. Learned behaviours (Hope Tony and FR don't see that " Behaviour" word LOL )I think they are out often because theres minimal fear not neccesarily that I'm not giving adequate choices.(I hope)

I have had some snakes in my collection for close to 20 years(even w/o humid hides), bred Bluetongues for around 18 Kept Shinglebacks, couldn't breed THEM and was keeping snakes in aquariums with dirt on the floor because Aspen and plastic cages weren't even around in the 70's(at least that I was aware of by me)

I am just a typical longterm hobbysist with nowhere near the list of accomplishments of folks like FR, Tony and a lot of the other ccol folk on here and while I certainly could/maybe should use narrower hides for the Pyros the post was about being intrigued with FRs ideas about keeping snakes actively supported all year w/o letting them cool down. I failed with using these particular snakes as my experiment but that's ok. They are healthy and suffered no harm.

Billy was just trying to look out for me and I think that was darn nice of him. How about we just chalk this whole thing up to taking things the wrong way and move on.

Bob.

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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Zach, Please do me a favor though and re-read your post.

> But your original post is a begginer question that shows that you still have a lot to learn.<

Zach How long do I have to be in the Hobby to be as knowledgable and wise as you? You DON"T have a lot to learn?

>Your snake sits out in the open because it has been accustomed to do so over its life. It had a choice, sit out in the open (I would consider even your hide boxes open), or die of stress.<

Zach there are two pyros crammed tightly into that commercial made hide with moistened Spagnum moss,The other photo shows a medium moist hide with Spagnum moss, a smaller dry hide that's just big enough for one to minimize dehydration and yet another small dry hide on the cool side that is JUST big enough to fit one Pyro under. You appear to JUST be paying attention to the very large cave type hide. The other flatter large ones are crammed with bedding so there is not much room for them and their backs can rest up against the interior.

Zach I do not think it's fair to make such sweeping jusgements and I hope if you re-read this you'll see how condescending you sound.

>But is it whats BEST or is it whats good enough to prevent disease? <

Zach You sound like your taking me to school on these things like you've "Arrived" dude. I hear this kind of stuuf from the kids at Petco and Petsmart that have read a few books and now want to "enlighten" me and everyone with their "expert" advice.

FR can sort of talk this way because he has years of experience but most everybody here doesnt because we are all learning. Please reread your post. I'm hoping you really don't mean to sound like you know it all.

Bob
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Bob.

Never meant to be condescending. And I am sorry if I came off that way.

I don't know you and you don't know me. Forgive me for judging, but your original post is a question that gets asked on this forum by 17 different newbies every spring. (seriously search) Didn't really expect you to come out with over 30 years of reptile keeping yet you don't have a way that you like to cool them????

I am not saying don't ask. This is a place to come and learn. I learn on this forum every day.

Like I said we don't know each other. I did not just "arrive". I have been a regular on this forum for 10 years.

And yes, I do agree with FR so forgive me for sounding like him. The mans usually got a point.

Zach I like to cool them like most everyone else does in the cellar in the mid to low 50s when they begin to not feed in late fall. FR has a lot of Keen insights and has on many occassions pointed out that Brumating is not neccessary. I am intrigued by that and thought perhaps I should try to look into that and keep an open mind rather than just doing what I've done all along.I never want to sound like I can't take a second look at what I'm doing and even if the man is not always fun he knows his stuff. I've been wrong on too many occassions or at least there have been better ways to do things than I saw. FR says you can keep animals up and feeding all year if you allow very warm and very cool and allow the snake to choose. This was just a poor attempt at experimenting. I don't know you either Zach. How about we just go forward and lt it go. I'm not one of the big dogs, just a long time hobbyist.

Bob.

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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

"Brumation was a term used for escaping hot and dry. As in doing down to avoid inhospitable heat and dryness."

brumation - a reduced state/torpor of metabolic activity of cold-blooded animals in response to reduced temperatures.

hibernation - metabolic levels reduced to conserve energy/fat reserves over extended periods of time, usually seasonal. More often related to warm-blooded animals. A brumating animal can come out of its tropor much more quickly than a hibernating animal can.

aestivation - reduced metabolic activity due to higher temps or dryer conditions.
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God Bless Evolution.

" Brumation was a term used for escaping hot and dry. As in doing down to avoid inhospitable heat and dryness."

No-the biological term for becoming inactive to escape heat/dryness is "Aestivation"..
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Personally i don't start putting snakes together until April. and it's worked for me thus far

BUT! On January 30th i had a pair hookup, Now im a little skeptical about this breeding being a success yielding a valid clutch with fertile eggs... i really do HOPE it is... but it wouldn't surprise me if it were not.

I've had females breed and not give me one egg not even a slug and i've had females breed and they give me ALL slugs (even being bred to proven males)... and being that this will be the 1st year for both of these snakes so this irregular (irregular by MY norms anyway) mating concerns me just a little.

The initial goal was to hibernate them together in hopes that they would breed earlier than i usually breed my snakes. Now i'm on the east coast (NYC) and the temperatures were LOW when they bred (i think upper 20's low 30's)... so i'm still puzzled that they locked up.

Here's the pair: "Hybino" Male and 2x Het "Hybino" Female (Hypomelanistic-Lavender):

~ZF

Its normal for Florida kings, especially from South Florida, to breed throughout the winter. Last year a friend collected some females in February to breed in to one of his projects, but found most of them to be already gravid.

Similarly, during a warm spell last year in February, I bred my sulfur male to my lavender female. I put them together several times after that as well. She eventually laid a clutch with about about a 50% fertility sometime around the beginning of June.

The colors on the het look pretty intense. Is there any sulfur in that line?

The female Het. is from a Yellow Lavender X Orange (Flame) Hypomelanistic.

She was the best out of the clutch (all female clutch btw)... HIGH color was the goal and sulphur in there would've made this project complete! but overall i'm please with the result... i hope her offspring are as nice or nicer!

Parents of the 2x het:
Male:

Female:

~ZF

For most people, these off season copulations are usually not successful. The reasons are simple. The keepers do not expect these and do not have proper support for the female. Many time the male has not been supported either. Both with food and with temps.

In nature, if the animals have been dormait, the males will become active about two weeks before the females.

So captive husbandry is a case of timing and yes it is. The recipe methods used here are method to breed a particular snake at a particular time.

If you support a snake with food and temps that it can choose, you know, give them choices, it will result in something different. What that different is, is a reflection of what you offer. Cheers

That is just my point above. I believe even those who claim to have breeding success without :brumation" or temperature cycling of any kind, are nonetheless still unknowingly providing enough subtle temperature clues (and, as you say, feeding support) that their animals are responding accordingly. You notice that these breedings still tend to occur in the Spring. I know my animals will breed any time of year that I provide same.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....