Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay some pretty good thoughts came out of the last thread and I'd like to build on this a bit more. The one thing that caught my imagination most was the idea that in good times a population's territory may expand very slowly and that such times are primarily manifest by an increase in population density. Conversely, during bad times populations tend to disperse more quickly. The concept that bad times may more effectively spread a populations influence than good times is a bit counter intuitive but it has a beauty all its own.

Anyway here is my question, any ideas or observations of what happens to a "fat" population once things start to go south? I can infer drops in reproductive rates and recruitment into the adult population are the first things that happen to bring the population back into equilibrium but at what point does inter-population competition become intense enough that actual dispersion begins and could incidence of cannibalism be a measure of this?

Here on the east coast I find few habitats that are in anything near pristine condition. Perhaps the reason I'm so certain that our kings are completely cannibalistic is because kings here are almost always in a stressed dispersal mode.

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Doug Wrote

Okay some pretty good thoughts came out of the last thread and I'd like to build on this a bit more. The one thing that caught my imagination most was the idea that in good times a population's territory may expand very slowly and that such times are primarily manifest by an increase in population density. Conversely, during bad times populations tend to disperse more quickly. The concept that bad times may more effectively spread a populations influence than good times is a bit counter intuitive but it has a beauty all its own.

The problem again is, your basing all your thoughts of THEORY. Then you build on theory with more theory. The problem is, reality may not agree, and in this case it most likely will not agree.

The problem is, suitable habitat. There must be suitable habitat to expand into.

Also, in good times there is strong recruitment. Strong recruitment means the habitat will be staurated. After that occurs, then it individuals get forced out, these become transient animals. Transient individuals are a part of the population at all times, good years or bad. On good years, there may be more. So a better chance of expansion.

Bad years are measured by poor or zero recruitment, then of course, there is NO expansion. In fact, contraction is most likely the case.

Anyway here is my question, any ideas or observations of what happens to a "fat" population once things start to go south? I can infer drops in reproductive rates and recruitment into the adult population are the first things that happen to bring the population back into equilibrium but at what point does inter-population competition become intense enough that actual dispersion begins and could incidence of cannibalism be a measure of this?
Cannibalism most likely occurs when members of different populations contact eachother. There is no need for any other conditions.

Here on the east coast I find few habitats that are in anything near pristine condition.

Let me ask you a question, what is pristine???? and why do you call it that? The reality is for kings, their populations are much higher in mans leftovers, old fields, old dwellings, etc.
Perhaps the reason I'm so certain that our kings are completely cannibalistic is because kings here are almost always in a stressed dispersal mode. Again, from your description, your observing TRANSIENTS. FIND THE BREEDERS, then you can talk about what BREEDERS DO.

The main problem I see with your observations are, you have not determined what kind of animals your collecting or observing, WHICH IS COMMON.

My observations are BASED on the productive part of the population, the residents. Its here where we find groups and consistant pairing and repeated obervations. These areas, are what I show when i post pics of breeding, pairs, groups, etc. These populations are what we need to study, not transients.

An analogy is, Street people are indeed a part of the american culture, but I would not base a study on the reproductive habits of the american or human culture on them. Transients are indeed part of reptile populations. But not the "successful" part.

About collecting, Street people are easy to find and observe, they live on the street. Residents are a bit harder, as they have homes(holes and burrows).

In order for you to make a decent observation, you must first find the productive part of the population. IF you do not find pairs or pairing, nests, eggs, clutches of neonates, piles of sheds(homes). Then your not finding any evidence that you are looking at something important. Something as simple as repeated behavior is very important to find.

Simply put, finding a snake under AC is not all that informative.

The real point, if all your finding is snakes, you cannot make up the rest of what they do. You must find evidence and repeated evidence of the important aspects of their lifes.

WE KNOW, they hatch, they grow, they must mate, they become gravid, they must lay their eggs, their eggs must hatch. All those are different catagrories. Then you must fill in each catagory has much much more to it.

What can you put into each catagory?

As an example, on our study site for montane rattlesnakes, we have no problem finding 10 gravid females a day. On the gila site, 10 to 15 gravid females a day is not a big problem. On the diamondback site, well, more.

Yes, those species are easy as they spend more time above ground. Kingsnakes, hmmmmmm I have found as many as six gravid pyros a day. Getula, the number drops around here, but not with speckled kings. hahahahahahahahaha tons

So sir, you must first KEEP looking until you find and then repeatedly find important parts of their life cycle. Then study that.

May I ask another question, do you find most of your kings in AC, how about finding them naturally??????? Are kings designed for AC? In order to truly understand a species, you must study it in the habitat its evolved to. You know, its natural habitat.

As a small example, in your area, how many snakes will breed and become gravid and lay eggs. Then compare that to how many you will see. My bet is, you never see natural copulations. or maybe a few in your life. What what gives you the idea your looking in the right area? They MUST copulate in nature.

Of course you could view this with watersnakes, thats easy, but what about kings? Are kings not pairing and breeding???? you do not see it, so it must not happen. But you find babies, so it must happen. Get it.

Then once you find what part of the population is doing this, and spend time observing them, THEN AND ONLY THEN can you make any comments on what they actually do.

If your in Fla, you can see anoles courting and copulating, heck, all the time, OK, not all the time but all spring into much of the summer.

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK KINGSNAKES ARE NOT DOING THE SAME? If you look where there is only one anole, you will not see them do it either.

Once you find pairs, you will notice, they spend months, up to six together, if not longer. Pyros, can and do stay in pairs year around.

C.lepidus and C.willardi, stay in pairs and small groups, year around, but C.atrox, do not. They only stay together for a month or two. Yet, the same males breed the same females, year after year. Lyresnakes, stay in groups YEAR around, etc etc.

So what do the kings in your area do? I do not know, but I do know what many of the reptiles in my area do. I can assume, yours would be similar but maybe not exactly the same. I have learned that because even the same species in neigboring mountain ranges, behavior is slightly different modes, but do stay within certain parameters.

Please do not take offense, but in order for you to actually learn, you have to read the right book. So get out and find these parts of reptile behavior, then figure out a way to study it. That last part is not all that easy.

about studying kingsnakes, being is they spend most of their life and most of these behaviors underground, you can study other species, then use each catagory. Call them power points, if you can then find these power points with the kings, that are the same or different then a known snake behavior, then you can get a better idea without having to have thousands of observations. Cheers

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"The problem again is, your basing all your thoughts of THEORY. Then you build on theory with more theory. The problem is, reality may not agree, and in this case it most likely will not agree."

I like to think about things. Shoot me!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

You got to Give Tony credit for pondering these things. A lot of folks just peruse past these things (posts) and blow it off. I think sometimes that might be healthier for us sometimes though.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

These recent conversations have been wonderful. The problem is understanding where information comes from.

Most of us are prejudiced and use information that is not appropriate for what we are using it for. Yes, so do I. In my case, I am very sensitive to creating information based of LACK of data. That is, we did not see it, so it does not happen. In fact, we did not see it, means, we did not see it. But that does not stop many, no not many, most biologists from writing about stuff they did not see.

Its common for biologists to use the Chi square(Kai) as a mathimatical predicter of trends or movements. So they take one event and turn that event into thousands, not by observation, but by math. Its a shortcut so to speak, you do not have to actually find what they do, you can predict what they do.

The problem with Chi square is, you must plot in the unknowns. Unfortunately, one restriction is, the objects cannot attract or repell eachother. They must be random. So they call the movements of reptiles random. They do so not by what they see the animals doing, but because their math requires it.

Instead of changing the Chi formula to fit animals, they change the animals to fit the Chi square.

I am sure we can all agree that reptiles are not random in their movements, in fact, very much the opposite. Everything they do is prejudiced by instinct, hormones and learned behavior. Random does not enter the picture.

Then the problem becomes confusing, you could plot the variables into the Chi square, but you must understand what those are. You see the problem, we don't understand the variables. But we still plot away.

So what we have is, biologists are not people who are truely interested in the behavoir of the animals, but people that have tools and they are going to use them.

How that works here is obvious. In order to understand what reproductive snakes do in nature, you really must see them repeatedly in reproductive mode. Yet, nice folks like Tony are basing their thoughts(theory) on a kingsnake under a board, then applying all manner of possible behaviors to that snake. Yes, you can do that and most do, but what good does that do them. Then what good is that information when they tell others their belief is valid over someone with actual observations.

Tony is actually thinking in a positive way, but he must go back to school(nature) and find the snakes doing what is in question. Again, you see the problem, most do not understand how to find snakes doing anything, muchless breeding and nesting and such. Its a great day when you find one feeding.

Next subject, Take your cages, they are beautiful, but have little to do with how a pyro works. Therefore, how you use temps becomes useless. You must offer what the snake understands, then you can judge what they do.

An example, my friend works at a local shop, he wants to make retes boards that they can sell. We had some talks, he build a set for his albino diamondback. Guess what, that snake uses the set and uses it well. But, the boards are tight and the snake recognizes how to use it.

In the case of animals, you have to fit the animal, not just make a tool. An example, if you set your artificial half rocks with a door out in nature, you would never find a pyro using them. But you could find a rattlesnake. The reason is pyros have thin skin, and do not expose themselves to air movement. Rattlesnakes have thick skin and are not afraid to spend some time in open air.

Did I ask you to put a piece of meat on top your hot spot. leave it there and see what happens to it. Then think about why your snake will not use it, or use it as little as possible.

Good luck, Cheers

You assume much Frank.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I wouldn't have run it past if I didn't want to hear constructive criticism. Aside from the going dormant during the winter months I've been happy with the set up. I have already gone to the dollarstore and grabbed some various peices of crockery to place in the large commercial hide to cramp it up, restrict airflow and use it as a heat sink of sorts while trying to make the original look work.Believe it or not I listen.

Frank , you are chock full of experience and insight and I and a lot of folks appreciate making use of it. I believe you are also trying to be more respectful. I just wish for whatever reasons you and Tony could connect better. The mans very intellegent and has a lot of good insights too and we would all benefit on the Forum from a better working relationship between you two. I don't even know what to suggest to be helpful. Just a bummer to see it go south all the time.

Happy Herping guys.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

We do Bob. Our styles are different that's all. I'm trying to be more direct and open minded. I like coming on here and sharing and reading ideas but I'm no longer going to rehash things point by point. I just don't have the time.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Then please set me strait. I guess I say these things because they are normal to other situations like this that I have been in. Again, I said I was very prejudiced in this area.

So please clarify and give me what your actually seeing. Cheers

I just get the sence that observing herps here in the mid-Atlantic coastal plains is quite differnt than in your area. Can't say this for sure becasue I've not been further west than KS but in my area there is no equivelent to a rock oasis where wild herps can be so easily observed.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Have you been paying attention, I have lived in Tenn, Fla, La, and I have not had a problem watching snakes. In fact, you have much greater concentrations of kings in the east, and more favorable weather.

If you think about it, the desert is mostly the hardest place to find numbers of snakes, due to its extreme heat and dryness.

That does force us to understand what they actually do. If we want to see anything, we have to learn what they are really doing.

Also, the excuses your making, I have heard so many times before. You know, the reason I don't see this and that is because yada yada yada yada. Sir, either find it or stop making theory when facts are available.

Of course, I do understand, what I think is only temporary. And surely it will improve and become more accurate as long as I keep studying them. But what I REPORT, is what I find. ITs not theory, its a report of actual events.

Bill wants us to get along, he says your smart. This I question. Smart is understanding the difference between theory and a factual report. Its fact that kings can and do live together in captivity. I and OTHERS have done it for decades. That you can't understand that is your personal problem. Its fact, that kings live in dense numbers in nature, anybody that has worked speckleds in march will surely understand that.

So tell me what you have seen. Cheers

That fishing rod is calling again!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Biologists do know alot about the animals they study and the habitat they are found. But more than that we are given the responsibility to manage what you have argued to be unmanagable. It is one thing to know something, its something totally different to DO something about it...to attempt to "hit a moving target" in management is very difficult. Its unfortunate that most times monies are only available to study when critters are either endangered or cuddly, but thats life and it helps pay the bills.
We use fancy formulas as shortcuts because we have to go to budget meetings, be on land development councils, represent the state in court cases, do actual lab work and all that other useless biologist stuff and not chase snakes down holes all day(laughing). The statistics we get from radio telemetry/mark recapture studies are useful, and large statistics are more important than individual behavior. You yourself have argued about "snake personalities", so I will ask you what would be a better tool for management--higher quality observations on fewer individuals or lower quality observations on more individuals? Be careful how you answer it, you cant have it both ways.

The statistics we get from radio telemetry/mark recapture studies are useful, and large statistics are more important than individual behavior. You yourself have argued about "snake personalities", so I will ask you what would be a better tool for management--higher quality observations on fewer individuals or lower quality observations on more individuals? Be careful how you answer it, you cant have it both ways.

But you're attaching something unnatural to the snakes' body and assuming it's behaviors are going to be "normal" or represent unaltered individuals' behavior(s).
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

Look at your post, its about your restrictions, we cannot do this become of time, and money, etc etc etc. Those restrictions have nothing to do with snake behavior. They are human restrictions.

In our case, we can do longterm studies, because we are truly interested in the animals and do this on OUR OWN DIME. Do yes, decades of information surpasses, a couple of months of funded study, that must be done in a hurry. And over time, we learned that these animals have many stradgies that are utilized for different conditions. Which means you extrapolating what one individual does in a limited amount of time, is useless for understanding behavior. A question for you sir, whats more important biologically, what behavior is utilized in good times(normal) or what behavior is utilized during stressful times? answer please. Ok, i will answer for you, its far more important to understand how they overcome stressful times, as that is how they prevent extinstion. Which is a big reason we study them, is it not?

Radio tagging is useless. You learn very little, but you learn it quickly. Bio 1 teachs of a basic behavior, fight or flight. You breach an animals natural behavior and they take flight. That is so easily proven, its laughable. But because you believe in your methods, your blind to ethology. You simply cannot take a snake out of its enviornment, do surgery, install a radio, with an antenna sticking out(in some cases) and return said animal back to where you found it and think its going to resume what it was doing. Sir, that type of thinking is naive and narsisistic(all about humans).

You see, I have worked with many methods and actually compared them to eachother. Non interference, NOT TOUCHING THEM, does not interfere or change their behavior. Pit tagging without removing them from spot of original contact, causes 65% to take flight. Radio tagging, causes them to take flight, Period. and why would it not? What radio tagging does is effectively turning a resident animal into a transient animal. But you do not even recognize that do you??????

I have nothing agains radio tagging, AS LONG AS YOU LABEL the information, data obtained with a radio physically installed in a small animal. Then followed by the thing that installed it. That data is not the same as what the animal would have done if it was not collected and had surgery done.

What is science to me. Its all about asking questions and recieving results. In this case, SCIENCE demands that you consider what removing an animal from its enviornment and installing a radio, ACTUALLY DOES, to the animals, not to your time limits and budjet. From conversations with you, you deny behavior, your not sensitive to ethology. Your a mechanic. Which is fine, so why do you talk about behavior when you deny they have any????? Go back to your training, be a biologist and stop screwing with behavior.

In the end Jeff, what good has your radio tagged information ACTUALLY DONE? Did you learn anything? Did you find important information? Did you repeatedly find reproductive events? Did you repeatedly find social events? Did you see all the basic life events these animals MUST DO. Did you find information that you can repeat in the lab?????? No offense sir, what is science to YOU. Cheers

What data would be better to use in management: small amounts of higher quality data or larger amounts of lesser quality data?

>You simply cannot take a snake out of its enviornment, do surgery, install a radio, with an antenna sticking out(in some cases) and return said animal back to where you found it and think its going to resume what it was doing. Sir, that type of thinking is naive and narsisistic(all about humans).>

That was the whole premise to the X-Files. Boy, thats a lot of hours of watching t.v. I'll never get a return on. lol

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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Just think about how many UFOs you western guys are misssing when you're out collecting at night by looking down instead of up.

Interesting opening scene for a UFO movie. Your out tagging snakes and you get tagged and probed!

Just made myself uncomfotable............
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

It's just a wild guess, but I don't think you are going to get a drect answer. No disrespect intended To FR but I don't think he operates that way. I've come to appreciate the insights he has but to expect a direct answer will just frustrate you and cause you to think about fishing. Always apreciate your posts and pics by the way.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

"to expect a direct answer will just frustrate you and cause you to think about fishing"

Indeed! LMAO
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

You were wrong, I gave a direct answer, I want data that works and can be applied. Heck, even data that can actually be tested. You know, to have the results set up in a new area and be able to repeat the results you extrapolated. How about data taken on several sites of the same species and see if they come out the same, or even close.

Yes, I want data or information that can WORK. Isn't that what you want for your animals? Isn't that what your looking to me for. The difference here is, I want you to first THINK, then the simple answers will become very very evident. The information your looking for is easy and has been here a long time. Whats not easy for you is to jump over the roadblocks that stop you from thinking about the animals and not what people tell you to think. Your animals are yelling at you, but your listening to people. Consider this, if they do not use something, its because that something is not right. They do not use most of their natural enviornment. They do use specific parts, as in their mirco-habitat. Cheers

I was wrong and impressed! Good on you sir!
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

"I want data or information that can WORK"

You don't get to cherry pick data.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I am sorry Tony, but you should cherry pick all information you are exposed to. AS in, do you believe everything you read????? You do understand there are good and bad information on every subject. You must learn to PICK what is useable.

Guess what, EVERY scientific paper, WILL BE REVISED, REWRITTEN OR SUNK. Sooner or later. Cheers

Frank, science SOMETIMES is wrong and needs to be corrected I will admit....but not always. Tony is right, you collect data, all of it, regardless of what you want or are looking for as an outcome. But you have me off subject so I will ask AGAIN:

For a working Biologist (with 100 other things to do) managing a population, what is "better" data to use:

A-Large amounts of lower quality data
B-Small amounts of better quality data

One letter response please FR.

Thats exactly the point, papers are written to be corrected and rewritten.

The problem is, many folks take them as gospel, when the papers were never intended to be gospel.

My point on this forum recently has been, THE ACTUAL SNAKES are gospel. They ARE the subject, They are what is to be believed. Cheers

LMAO, ...well not literally! That would end all outdoor excursions for me! Just hope they don't "pop" me!!
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Todd Hughes

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

I want data that produces the desired result. Yup, that is what I want.

The problem for you is, your data is academic. Which means aside from, or not to be applied. I want data that is to be applied.

You see Jeff, keeping reptiles is APPLIED data or information. It will always have a result. That result will define the data or information.

The data produced by math is only check or tested as to it being mathematically correct, not if that data is applied with it produce in a positive result.

So yes, that type of data you take is only for the sake of taking data and not to be used for anything specific.

Observing what they actually do and how they do it, can be and is applied to captive animals. I do that. And many many captive paradigms are attributed to me. Like Retes boards, temp choices, proper nesting, pair bonding, etc. Again, it will always result in something.

So yes, I want information that WORKS, that can result in something positive if applied correctly. What say you? what kind do you want. Information that works or information taken so a group of people can agree upon it. But does not work for anything or have an application. Cheers

but you also make some pretty far fetched conclusions like kings are only cannibalize those outside of their happy little family or when literally starved.

You've cherry picked data to support how to find or keep snakes but ALL the data does not support this conclusion.

I've tried to be open-minded and listen to your point of view but your ideas come far from reconciling all the data. To the point your take here is wrong. You should try listening every now and then. This is the kingsnake forum not the Frank Retes forum
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Sir, I never said "only" that is a word you added, on your own. Sir, you adding one small word, makes a huge difference in understanding. By adding "only" you not only are prejudicing your own thoughts, but also others that are reading this thread.

If you work with behavior, there IS NO ONLY. Behavior works with averages and trends. Most do this, most tend to do that, some react in this manner, others in another manner, etc. That is behavior. As such, ethology is not a "pure" science. There is commonly more then one answer to one question or more accurately, more then one responce to one stimuli.

People normally do not murder other people, yet they do. We live in pairs, in a colony. Most of the time there is no murder, but there are exceptions. Thats behavior.

Snakes live in colonies, and do not consume eachother(normally). That is normal. Can exceptions occur, OF COURSE. So I ask, what good is it dwelling on exceptions and mishaps.

In the case of keepers, you get overprotective keepers that do not allow the animals to be THE ANIMALS. Nature is NOT overprotective and yet they function and exsist just fine.

Natures goal is, to produce more animals(to recruit) then is lost. The excess is supporting the ecosystem(a tax) Sadly, most overprotective keepers produce less then they lose. Hmmmmm and there are no predators or floods, or fires, hmmmmmmm how sad.

The reality is, over the decades, we have lost more individuals to "normal" keeper mistakes, like leaving the door open or some other such thing, then due to cannibalism.

Also in nature, we have a very very low turnover rate in the colonies, but a high turnover rate with single animals. Again, that is a report, not a statement of theory.

Jeff sort of asked what biology was to me. I didn't tell the whole truth. I gather data, Period. When doing field studies, its not right to prejudice your data, as in, looking for this or that, to prove this or that. We set up our parameters, that is, our study must include basic life events, including neonates, reproductive activities and feeding activities. While paying special attention to the interference of our methods of taking data. After that, we take data, and work that data out at some later date, away from the field.

With behavior, everything WE do, has an effect. Its all about degree. This is a very sticky point and one of much debate. As seen with the fundamental differences between Jeff and I. If your working with behavior, everything we do has an effect. If your working with biology(the mechanics) your free to disect.

What confuses me is, why are biologists(mechanics) attempting to work out of their field of training, you know, working with ethology(behavior). That my friend is a good question, which is what science is, asking good questions. Cheers

"If you work with behavior, there IS NO ONLY"

That is precisely the point others (self included) debated with you. You only backed off of absolutes when pressed and pressed hard I might add.

You should really try fishing it clears your head. I know that sounded sarcastic but it wasn't meant to be. I took some time out from this conversation and I saw a little more pepper in the mix than I originally thought. There is much to this conversation you are missing by automatically discounting what others have to say. I can't QUITE bring myself to say cheers so I'll just say, "Pass me a cold one from the cooler"!

Quiet! I think I feel a nibble!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

First Tony, you are not quite getting where I am coming from.

Yes, I am assuming a lot about you, and thats because you do not offer anything REAL. You offer theory. Which is great. I am not offering theory. I am offering results from captive animals and reports on wild animals.

I do not make absolutes, or "onlys". I offer results and reports. The reality is, we could debate all manner of whys and maybes of these results and reports, but these reports are real and in real time.

You want to debate realtime results with theory. I cannot do that. As I gain more information from captives and nature, I surely will add that to what I think, even if it allows me to completely change my current position. So no, absolutes, I do not understand that, or why you would even think that way.

I think, you think in absolutes, so you take my statements the same as you do your thoughts. Sir, there is no place for absolutes here.

If I say they(the snakes) live in groups, that means, a percentage of their meaningful population, does live in groups. IT does not mean, each and every snake. As most of each population is transient and expendable. How you measure the strenght of a population is based on the percentage of producing animals, verses non producing transients, etc.

I understand it must be very difficult or even impossible for you to understand where I come from, the reason is simple, you do not seem to have the experience necessary to even make any kind of judgement. On offense with that, but you have offered nothing. I have asked, What is your experience in the field, and you simply disappear and come back with something else. Or somehow making it about me. Again Tony, why not make it about the experiences and results we(you and I) have obtained.

So yes, its odd you make things into absolutes. Cheers

There is no way this is about me talking in absolutes. Talk about twisting!

I simply disagree this some of your conclusions because they don't fit my observations or those of most long time herpers I know. End of story.

As for my experience I've been doing this for 37 years not as long as you but then the ghosts of Ray Ditmars or Roger Connent could post here and you'd find something to ridicule.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

You can disagree all you want, That does not effect me or the snakes, ONE TINY BIT. All I ask is, why not investigate. There a are many observing the same things I am.

Also, I strongly suggest that many old paradigns are changing and advancing this those OLD BOOKS were written, try doing some catching up. Cheers

liten up tony geez,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I am currently reading an incredible book that deals with many topics in this post that both Tony and FR make, by one of my favorite naturalists/zoo keepers of our age, Gerald Durrell, called "The Stationary Ark" there he talks about making his Jersey zoo based on animal behavior and needs and is RIGHT in tune with what you all are discussing. Besides that, hes just a wonderful guy to start reading!
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1.1 Newton County, IN Bulls
1.0 Texas Redish Bull
0.1 Kansas Yellow Bull
2.1 Red X Yellow Bulls
1.0 Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada Bull
1.1 Carolina Northern Pines (M from NC, F from SC)
1.2 Henderson County, NC Black Rats
1.1 Gray Banded 'Blair's' Kings
2.2 Coastal Cal Kings
1.1 Speckled Kings, Harris County, TX
1.1 Eastern Chain Kings (M from GA & F from NC)
1.0 Hogg Island Boa
1.2 Ball Pythons