Reptile & Amphibian Forums

These were sent to me via email from Stephen Fowler. I was told these were pics of his Blaze Phase. Interesting thing is he has them labeled as Hypos.

First pic is of a normal next to a Blaze.

Next two are pics of adult Blaze.

The more I look at these, the more I think these were just bred for higher red coloration and had Florida Kings bred into them to introduce the Hypo gene. Knowing that Gulf Coast Reptiles bred Florida Kings with Apalachicola Kings to produce Snow and Axanthic Apalachicola Kings, I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same thing here.

The first time I saw the BLAZE gene was I think LATE 01. Gulfcoast claimed not to have adults yet as they were still working off of het adults. The same year I think Brandon Osborne was one of the only people around with SNOW(lav) brooksi adults. I may be corrected here but I think 03 is the first year BLAZE have been produced from pure BLAZE parents,yes? Not sure on the time line for the HYPO brooksi gene. I agree that those pics sure do make for a definate argument for BLAZE and HYPO to be synonimized! But then it hurts for them to sit down for like a week! I may be corrected on the time line....Jeff

The first time I saw the BLAZE gene was I think LATE 01. Gulfcoast claimed not to have adults yet as they were still working off of het adults. The same year I think Brandon Osborne was one of the only people around with SNOW(lav) brooksi adults. I may be corrected here but I think 03 is the first year BLAZE have been produced from pure BLAZE parents,yes? Not sure on the time line for the HYPO brooksi gene. I agree that those pics sure do make for a definate argument for BLAZE and HYPO to be synonimized! But then it hurts for them to sit down for like a week! I may be corrected on the time line....Jeff

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The first year I saw the BLAZE goini was the 2000 expo in Daytona. It would have been easy to breed the hypo brooksi and cull out the nicest "GOINI" looking babies to breed back to each other. The hypo brooks has been around for at least 10 years. The first list I saw hypos was from a guy in CA. by the name of Vince Scheidt.........and that was in '92.

As for the snows, Walter Smith produce them in 01 as well as Tim Ricks. I didn't produce mine......but did produce a lot of babies this year. Like everyone says.......who knows anymore. Nothing is safe.lol.

Brandon

I think Walter and Tim may have produced them in 2000. If I remember correctly. It's been a long day and it's late.

Brandon

I dont think it possible that someone were to breed a snow brooks into a goini and have the babies bred back yet. Or was this just a comment on the breeders(Chris and Shiela)themselves? I am sure that someone will find out soon enough as a HYPO brooks is bred to a BLAZE...but not many people have adults from Gulfcoasts' line yet that is for sure. And those that do may not be into producing intergrades quite yet, but then again.....LOL.JEff

I confer that the first year I saw the Blaze was at Daytona in 01. They were the first produced and were not for sale. To me the initial animals looked like classic gioni other than the color but also noticed that the head color was somewhat lighter than the body much like the Doug Beard strain of hypo Brooks.

As for them being a cross I have never asked directly but was told that the mutation was spontaneous. I choose to believe this and here is why. First, Sheila and Chris knew that I wouldn't have a problem if they were crosses and so there was no reason to lie and second, yes hypo Brooks have been around for some time but still were not common in the hobby until 99 2000 breeding seasons. To a point, I've seen several clutches of goini/brooks crosses and they look nothing like goini. IMHO it would take several generations breeding back to "pure" goini to get a classic looking hypo phenotype like those Sheila and Chris were selling.

To this conversation I'd like to add a bit of personal bias. It's well known that I don't get the locality thing especially when people use it to justify line breeding animals to the nth degree. What I do appreciate are well-bred classic specimens that have some lineage data, locality if you like, so that inbreeding can be further avoided. In this regard I share locality breeders enthusiasm for collecting and sharing data. That being said its MHO that morph production is a CLEAR DEPARTURE from producing "pure" classic specimens. To me ALL morphs are designer snakes and the name of the game is to produce the most attractive animals possible. To that end even if the blaze phase goini is a cross, it is still one fine looking animal and one in which I'm sure we'll se some continued improvement. Just my two cents.

I dont think they are outcrossed with Brooksi . It would take too much time to breed out all those crossbars and Brooksi have a ton. Some of the first animals that popped up on the Blaze were Striped and patternless and of course standard Blotched animals. I do think they are Hypomelanistic though and the gene is similar to the Hypo Brooksi.

Keith

I dont think they are outcrossed with Brooksi . It would take too much time to breed out all those crossbars and Brooksi have a ton.

Keith, GCR has bred them with Florida Kings. Here is one of the emails I got from Sheila earlier this year.

From: GCReptiles@aol.com | This is spam | Add to Address Book
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:10:39 EDT
Subject: Re: Message about: Snow Goins & Anerythristic Goins Classic Blotched Patter...
To: sblude02@yahoo.com

Dear Sir,
These were produced here at our breeding facility last year. Originally I bred a Snow Florida King to an exceptionally orange Goins King, I raised up the offspring from that breeding, only the ones that looked like Goins, bred them back to each other, and produced a combination of Snow, Albino, and Anerythristic Goins Kings, all of which looked like pure Goins some with exceptional classic patterns.
Best regards,
Sheila

If they've already done this, I would not be surprised if they did the same thing with the Hypo gene.

Sean

I can see why the concern or doubt about the Blaze but why would she tell you these particular snakes are outcrossed with Floridana and then lie about the Blaze ? It doesnt make any sense to be honest about the history of one thing then lie about another. I cant say for sure that the Blaze are real. Ive seen them first hand and owned one for awhile (I sold it last year) and they looked like Goini. This is the reason I think people who breed hybrids and outcross subspecies together have a problem. You simply cant completely trust their stuff. Ive argued this point with Rainer but he is too stubborn to accept that fact. With that said I still kinda lean more towards the Blaze being legit.

Keith

p.s. Enough of the orange Goini where are the white and light yellow cream ones ! Thats what Ive been looking for . The ones pictured in Perlowins Kingsnake book are my dream Goini and I believe Bill Love took those series of pics.

It doesnt make any sense to be honest about the history of one thing then lie about another

Are they really being that honest? They didn't list their Snow and Axanthix "goini" as being crossed with Florida Kings on the classifieds. I asked about their Albino Goini and they said it was too lengthy to write in words and that I should call them about it. Whatever. I think any morph you see of "goini" isn't going to be the real thing and has been outcrossed to introduce desired traits.

Enough of the orange Goini where are the white and light yellow cream ones ! Thats what Ive been looking for . The ones pictured in Perlowins Kingsnake book are my dream Goini and I believe Bill Love took those series of pics.

Right on! Those pics in Perlowin's are superb. That's what I intend to produce when my females get large enough to breed. Neither one has a hint of any red in them.

Well in that case hurry up and produce my white with a gray/black stripe up the middle Goini ! LOL

Keith

I got my male Apalachicola king from Stephen Fowler. He doesn't have any red in him, though Stephen did tell me he was born quite red but lost it all as he matured. I will be interested to see how the babies turn out. One of them was born almost a buckskin color. That one got red with each shed and is now as red as its siblings.

Here's a pic of the goini I got from stephen:

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~Sasheena

This particular snake was bred by Southern Reptile.
The parents were found in a Pet Store in LA.
Nice animal, worth breeding for sure but not part of the Blaze project.
The other one I offered you was het for Blaze.
Stephen