Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was going to post this in the "Business Trends and Issues" subforum, but that place isn't exactly hopping with activity.

*Disclaimer: This is not a post disparaging the ball market. In fact I have two mutation females arriving tomorrow.*

What do you folks think will happen with ball pythons, either in terms of pricing or supply, as the US economy continues its downward spiral?

I got into balls back in 2006 and will fully well admit I became uncomfortable enough watching prices plummet on animals I had just bought that I got cold feet and got out. Of course now I'm really regretting that and getting back with just the morphs I want to see around my house, rather than anything I think could make me a single cent.

Getting back into them at this time with the US economy the way it is, I'm honestly surprised that not more people were willing to wheel and deal. Of course I was picky about what animals I bought so I paid a good amount for them. But I contacted several people before I settled on what I wanted, and I suppose I was expecting people to be far more open to negotiations because of fears of getting in an economic squeeze later.

I'm certainly not complaining about what I paid. It's minimal this time compared to what I invested before. And like I said, I bought quality animals rather than the cheapest I could find. In the end I think that'll be far worth it in the offspring I produce, if I ever do.

So what do you all think will happen with the ball market? With pressures from a sinking housing market, rising unemployment, and heck even new regulations that may eventually effect what we can do with these animals, will people at any point begin to panic like they did with the stock market and drive prices way down? Or are snake people wise enough to hold out for better days and let supply and demand, rather than fear and paranoia, control prices? I like to think it'll be the latter, but I'm curious to get thoughts from people who are far more experienced in this than I.

Thanks for your time.
-----
Chance Duncan
Science Teacher, Herp Enthusiast, and Reptilian Conservation Proponent
www.rvexotics.com

i think we are seeing incredible drops in morphs! and sure the economy is to blame for some of the drop but i think also the days of 25000.00$ ball morphs are behind us now for the most part i mean there is a color and pattern for almost anyone at a affordable price. there was a time that anything new that popped up or was proved was the animal to have and now that the spectrum is so vast i think folks will begin to turn to animals that have that awe factor! to them uno the ones that drop youre jaw when the droor is opened we all as ball python lovers have had this happen to us and this of course is just my 2 cents anyway good post regards

First of all, why do you assume the economy is going to continue a downward spiral. Isn't it supposed to get better.

You aren't the first one to say people aren't selling cheap.

Sales are happening. I don't advertise and I'm selling.

You're right the 25K snakes are over. So what, I never bought or sold one of those anyway.

Mike

there's still a $25k snake out there, just do a search through the big breeders websites......you find it.....it's a double recessive.

Pitoon

I know which one you are talking about and it is rockin; I have also seen a single visible recessive that was proven out this year that sold for 20k. So there are a few out there that are still very high, Not to mention I see many animals over 5k selling yet and if you ask me 5k is still a good handful of change.

I personally think that economy may have taken a fall and there may be a handful of small hobbyist that are selling out but I would venture to say the majority of the ball market has not felt to much of a hit yet because we are still getting ready to get into the main selling time frame. Most breeders are still wrapping up some pairings or waiting on the eggs in the incubators.

I think summer is when we will get a more realistic view as to what the market look like.

Just my two pennies,
matt

it is struggling and will continue to struggle, although it is better than most snake markets. Look at the classifieds, same animals for several months. I think even the well known/experienced breeders see this and you now start to see people unloading their breeders and collections (I can think of 3 off hand). Sure you can sell stuff behind closed doors and sell a lot, a lot do but a lot don't (nor have that connection yet), that isn't going to regulate the price drops. It is supply and demand and said over and over. This happened in the colubrid world to a certain milksnake. Ones that sold for $2-3000 now can't even be sold for $150 (and that's a double recessive). Those known/experienced colubrid breeders got out before and the same trend is happening now. Yes, the economy has something to do with it but if people have the disposable income, they will still spend it regardless. The animals are just becoming too readily available. That's not necessarily a negative but it happens. It is great for someone not doing this as a business but as a hobby. It allows for superb animals and a lower price. It is horrible if you spent the time/effort/money for top notch breeders to see them fall in price but that is the way it is (I know that first hand). IMHO: I would think a prime example would be phantoms vs mystics. If mystics prove to be phantoms, than you should see the bottom drop out of the phantoms because there is a stockpile waiting to be dispersed, not to mention they are incomplete dominants and reproducible within a year's time--males.

Right now all high end animals are holding at 2500-3500 but that is about the limit. Most don't go that high and most are negotiable. There is a niche for the 25K animals, but that is only WELL known/experienced breeders and collectors. Yes you see 5K animals, and continue to see them, until they get lowered or someone does happen to buy them, but a few don't constitute the overall trend of the masses.

Basically, the economy is influencing things further, but it is the icing on the cake. The actual substance of the cake is supply and demand.

These are just my opinions

Hello,

Here is my 1.375 cents (Economic Correction on my opinion) on the topic. First of all the price on anything is the price of what you are willing to pay for it. One thing I have noticed is that you can tell who is in this for the money and who is in this for the love of snakes in general. I myself have become a breeder but only because I want to breed snakes. Unfortunately, I have really expensive taste, but I can afford that. Everyone that inspired me to get into breeding told me NOT to do it for the money. They were right. The thing that makes me upset is that you make the breeders selling snakes a solid offer, and they do not even respond with a counter. I am making a long list of them because there are only a few breeders that are selling on market prices. These are the breeders I want to deal with specifically. The breeders that are selling there 08 morphs on 08 pricing can keep them. I agree that I did not buy one snake last year that I would have to pay near half of much in today's economy. Unfortunately, the only snake I need to add, no one is willing to deal on yet. I can't wait for the 09 babys. Again, if you have been dealing lately you get a really good feel for the breeders who are in it for more that the almighty devalued dollar.

Just my 1.375 cents though,
Bill

Are you saying the breeders who won't come down are in it just for the money, or is it the breeders who will sell cheaper that are in it for the money.

Let me and try and explain what I mean. Again personal opinion alert here, dont hang me online please. I get the feeling when I offer 500.00 dollars for a retail 800.00 dollar snake that it deserves a reply of some kind. IE: Thank you for the nice offer but I am going to only sell my ball python with a really cool pattern for 800.00. Or another IE: Thank you for the nice offer but I could probably take 150.00 off and split shipping. Here are some of the replies I get: Actual replies here....Not a chance. Are you crazy. I bet you would. Go to hell. Or my favorite...No reply at all. Now I get some really cool replies that I can work with. IE: The one stated earlier; Thank you for the nice offer but I could probably take 150.00 off and split shipping. Or even this one: Thank you for the nice offer but I am going to only sell my ball python with a really cool pattern for 800.00. Now I know everyone breeding snakes online has not been to business school or may even not have gone to college. But I think when someone makes you an offer you should get out of a mutual respect a reply that indicates you are running a business. I feel like I am trying to buy a bag of dope from some people, and not a really cool reptile that deserves better business sensitivity than that. All I am saying is there are more people like me coming up the pipes that are truly doing this as a hobby and not a business and I really like buying snakes from those kinds of people.

I hope that helped? Now I am confused...
Bill

Bill you are right,every offer deserves a response and it should not be sarcastic.As a seller all offers are considered ,countered or declined .As a buyer I remember the attitudes of some dealers and never consider them again.Terry

I agree you should get a response, no doubt, even if your offer was only a little over 50%. I thought you were talking more about the fact that some wouldn't lower the price and some would. I wasn't sure which guy would be more in it for the money.

While I agree sellers should be cordial in their return response -- there are two sides to every coin -- the seller might find your low ball offer, insulting.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Well Tosha,

I think any offer that involves cash in this economy would not be an insult. I can tell you this! I have money in the bank, and I am going to stop offering it to all the breeders right now because no one seems to want it. I am just not going to keep paying retail in this market. I actually think I will stuff my money in my pillow and sleep on it tonight.

Best regards,
Bill

With all due respect just because the economy sucks doesn't mean that everyone that breeds balls is desperate for cash. There are plenty of us that are financially secure and don't need any dime that comes our way. These animals are someone's hard work and in most cases people take great pride and joy in their snakes and their production - to think that they should just be grateful that you offered them money is ridiculous.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

True,
I would rather keep what took me years to produce through selective breeding than sell it cheap to someone that thinks they have earned the right to insult me and my efforts. Plenty of people know how long it takes to produce outstanding Royal Pythons and they appreciate the difference and the effort.
-----
Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

>>True,
>>I would rather keep what took me years to produce through selective breeding than sell it cheap to someone that thinks they have earned the right to insult me and my efforts. Plenty of people know how long it takes to produce outstanding Royal Pythons and they appreciate the difference and the effort.
>>-----
>>Kyle
>>www.royalvariations.com
>>
>>"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Damn straight!!

Ever had a car up for sale for less than the bluebook value?.Inevitably,"that guy"always shows up with a bs offer..You know,the guy that thinks you ought to take 20% or 30% less than that.

..come to think of it.Do i smell a flipper?
-----
Charles Glaspie
http://www.myspace.com/coldthumb

WOW, now that is an insult. First off if these breeders are anything like me, they take great pride in the animals they produce and work very hard in producing the quality of animal that they offer to the public. With that said, I have many animals that will never be offered for sale because the market price in my opinion is too low for the quality of animal. For instance, because Joe Blow is selling female pastels for $100 everyone who is buying thinks they all should be regardless of the fact that his are barely noticeable as pastels. Now I'm not going to take double that price for my screaming bright yellow and jet black animals. Does that make me in it just for the money? Well if it does oh well even though I'd rather look at the snake than the money.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

It is true that the prices of nearly all ball python morphs have fallen a lot over the past few years, but that would have happened regardless of the economy. Its supply and demand. Its very easy to produce large numbers of a lot of the morphs, especially the co-dominants and dominants. With all the competition, prices have to come down. I believe that most morphs will settle in the $200-300 range, even the morphs that are currently very rare. Once they are produced in larger numbers, they'll come down, too. I planned my entire business around that. I just wanted to produce larger numbers of many of the more desireable morphs and offer them at prices the average person can afford. I knew prices wouldn't stay high long and expected to be selling my offspring for much less than I paid for my breeders. All reptile markets have done this- colubrids, leopard geckos, etc. Even selling the babies for a couple hundred each is profitable, you just can't make a living off one or two racks of breeders now. That's ok because I love working with them, so I don't mind the hard work and effort it takes to maintain a large collection.

As far as the US economy goes, it affects everyone in one way or another. However, our sales are as good or better than they have ever been. I'm not seeing any kind of slowdown in sales of the cheaper morphs. The morphs that are still more expensive, $1000 and up, aren't moving quickly, but the more expensive morphs never have sold extremely fast for me. Slowly, but surely. I think that sales will continue to be strong, now that many morphs are more affordable. I suppose if the economy keeps getting worse, it could eventually get so bad that people have to give up buying anything they want, but so far, that definitely isn't happening with ball pythons.

Garrick
Royal Constrictor Designs

Well put Garrick, I think you make some very good points here. I think alot of the morphs will still take quite some time to get to the $200-300 range but I still think your point is valid. Look at the Albino Ball for example , we all said 8 -10 yrs back that the Albino Ball would NEVER get below $500 , we all know that way of thinking isn't true anymore.

Anthony McCain

will people at any point begin to panic like they did with the stock market and drive prices way down?

.........?.......thought we actually passed that point?
.........

.......it will get worse...all over and all around...hopefully they don't import anything from Africa this year....(*that's a joke)...but I can hope.....but some things will always be....

cigarettes,lottery tickets,beer,and stupid pet tricks.....

....admit it...no matter how poor people are they have a beer in their hand and a cig in their mouth....and some critter at their home.....

..

....
-----
......

..JY

.

Here is my little opinion:

The economy worsens and gets better in cycles. If breeders are more selective in what they breed to sell then they can avoid the glut of snakes and morphs that will drive prices down. It IS simple supply and demand. Too many albinos and the price goes down on albinos. If breeders constantly create new morphs then the prices will stay higher. People will pay more for rarer animals and morphs NO MATTER WHAT THE ECONOMY IS DOING! Just keep making new morphs! Look at it this way. If you have 1,000 ball pythons to sell and they are all piebalds then you will either run out of buyers for piebalds or have to greatly reduce the price. But if you have 1,000 balls to sell and you have 10 each of 100 different morphs then the only thing you will run out of is snakes. Piebalds have been out for what, like 14 years and there are no high white pieds for less than $1,000. If the only ball morph available was pied then pieds would be $100 or less right now. How about crossing those pieds to all the other morphs?

Please do not breed for sale what is already out there in large #'s! Make something NEW!!!

Thanx

Kevin

I'm glad so many people are taking the time to speculate on my questions I'm also glad I'm not the only one to have not been able to haggle my way into a crazy deal - maybe it isn't just my terrible negotiation skills. Heck, I sold a good sized male spider for $750 and a small male albino for $900 in '06, so I'm certainly not in this to make money.

There is a really interesting mentality with reptile keepers considering the state of the US economy. We are, to put it simply, very irrational investors. It almost seems like there is a shield around us that stock holders don't have. Most of us buy animals we like to look at even though we know their prices are going to drop, and many of us spend far more than we really should to do it. Sure some get into them thinking they're going to make money, but anyone who's ever actually tried realizes that you have the same odds making big money with reptiles as a high school basketball player has making it into the NBA or a garage band getting a record deal. It happens, just too rarely to really look forward to.

I agree with what many others have said in this thread. I'm ecstatic that I just bought a female albino and a female orange ghost and didn't have to borrow against a line of credit to do so. I saw a caramel albino for $1200 the other day and was just floored. Those things were like $15k last time I checked! Even the hets were out of my price range. Now maybe I could save up and actually buy one.

It is that revelation, with lower prices putting snakes into the hands of those who could otherwise never afford them, that will keep this "market" afloat for a long time to come. I actually look forward to the day pieds hit the $5-700 mark, so that maybe I could actually buy one. Sure I could get hets and play that game, but I'm impatient.

I imagine we'll see quite a bit of jumping up and down of prices as mutations fall to within reach of a large number of people and the demand suddenly jumps. After all, there will always be a demand for a snake that is so relatively easy to care for and handle that comes in so many ridiculous colors and patterns.

No offense to Kathy Love, and I have nothing against corns, but they just don't have the "wow" factor for me that many ball mutations do.
-----
Chance Duncan
Science Teacher, Herp Enthusiast, and Reptilian Conservation Proponent
www.rvexotics.com

So much of my current time is spent preparing for the launch of ShipYourReptiles.com that I haven't had any time to run ads or stress snake sales.

Yet we have been clipping along quite well. We have made a number of good sized sales in January and February, and I sense that as a whole the market is already on the upswing.

When you have big market shake outs, lots of dabblers look to other ways to make money or "get rich quick", so there are less choices out there today then there were last year. Those who continue to put out great animals, continue to build reputation and offer great customer service, they will see sales pickup.

We had our best ever breeding year last year, and I expect to surpass that for 2009. I feel great about what has sold and how it has happened.
-----
robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

True,

The White Plains show recently was busy with buyers and excitement.
-----
Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

How do Balls get priced?

someone just says......i think i'm going to try and sell this one for 20K then that starts the trend.

if no one has it then you can pretty much set the price.

Pitoon

Very true. There is no standard - and price fixing is illegal afterall. Kinda makes you wonder how prices fall where they do. Obviously supply and demand generate the average prices, but it's an interesting exercise in communal thinking.
-----
Chance Duncan
Science Teacher, Herp Enthusiast, and Reptilian Conservation Proponent
www.rvexotics.com

Kind of like when I used to work as a cashier at Wal-Mart and it could be completely dead. Yet as soon as one person showed up to check out, a billion people followed suit.
-----
Chance Duncan
Science Teacher, Herp Enthusiast, and Reptilian Conservation Proponent
www.rvexotics.com