Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone bred a Kahl Albino to a Sharp strain ?

.....resulting in double hets, then when bred together getting both phenotypes to show up at once in a single neonate ?

Yeah too much time on my hands LOL.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

It would be uncertain which was which if they were bred together. Although many would feel certain one could never guarantee any were properly identified.
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Ty Hege
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

Thanks Ty ,

I would assume someone did the breeding (awhile back) to see if the strains where compatible.

was wondering about the later part, cause I sometimes just wonder with all the breeding people have done what has been discovered. To be honest I can't tell one from the other under most circumstances.

>>It would be uncertain which was which if they were bred together. Although many would feel certain one could never guarantee any were properly identified.
>>-----
>>Ty Hege
>>Rat Race Solutions
>>www.ratracesolutions.com
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

I'm probably misunderstanding your question Frank ? , But...
This was done way back when by Brian Sharp and Pete Kahl.
What's slightly unclear and not been answered is what happen
to the DH's that were produced.
When it comes down to it .I can identify the really nice Sharp
Albino Boas from the Kahls.
Then there are those Sharp strain Albino Boas that look rather
generic and I can't tell the difference

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

>>I'm probably misunderstanding your question Frank ?

What I wanted to know was... if het's where ever bred and both strains of albino showed up simultaneously in a single snake.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

I got ya. To my knowledge no have not been.I notice this is a very heated subject as well.Most people on this forum get extremely upset when they hear someone even suggesting to do it and see what happens. They are afraid it will open a terrible can of worms. So people (crooked people) would start claiming Kahls are Sharps etc..
To be honest I'm very curious about this Kahl X Sharp out come as well.
It could be something completely unexpected
. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

>>I got ya. To my knowledge no have not been.I notice this is a very heated subject as well.Most people on this forum get extremely upset when they hear someone even suggesting to do it and see what happens. They are afraid it will open a terrible can of worms. So people (crooked people) would start claiming Kahls are Sharps etc..
>> To be honest I'm very curious about this Kahl X Sharp out come as well.
>>It could be something completely unexpected
>> . . . Lar M
>>-----
>>Boas By Klevitz
>>Boas By Klevitz
>>
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

I assume Sharps are worth more monetarily ?
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

.
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Ty Hege
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

>>What's slightly unclear and not been answered is what happen
>>to the DH's that were produced.

Exactly. They were either culled out or wholesaled as 'pet shop' boas.. we've heard both versions on this forum, not sure which is correct or if either of those are correct.

*As far as I know* there has not been a boa produced that is both homogeneous kahl and homogeneous sharp.

Sharp strains tend to be more expensive at this time as they have not been around as long as Kahl strain and the sharp strains are typically more colorful. (Selective breeding of the Kahl strain has improved those boas colors and as with any boa there is a wide varience in coloration.) Sharp strain, as was already mentioned, also combine with the boa woman carmel to produce paradimes, parahets, etc.

I won't get into the ethics of doing the breeding of sharpxkahl itself.
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

>>>>What's slightly unclear and not been answered is what happen
>>>>to the DH's that were produced.
>>
>>Exactly. They were either culled out or wholesaled as 'pet shop' boas.. we've heard both versions on this forum, not sure which is correct or if either of those are correct.
>>
>>*As far as I know* there has not been a boa produced that is both homogeneous kahl and homogeneous sharp.
>>
>>Sharp strains tend to be more expensive at this time as they have not been around as long as Kahl strain and the sharp strains are typically more colorful. (Selective breeding of the Kahl strain has improved those boas colors and as with any boa there is a wide varience in coloration.) Sharp strain, as was already mentioned, also combine with the boa woman carmel to produce paradimes, parahets, etc.
>>
>>I won't get into the ethics of doing the breeding of sharpxkahl itself.
>>-April
>>-----
>>'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

To do this would be total ignorance. It would be impossible to tell with any certainty which is which. You then could not sell the animal to anyone , because you dont know what you own. There is no reason to attempt such a breeding, although I am sure it has already been done by accident. Pet trades will buy hets and poss hets and who knows what happens after years of buying, selling and trading. I know that sharps and kahls usually look quite different, but not all of the time.

Isn't the question, has it been done was the question.

With all the phenotypes being mixed I was wondering if this had been done, by accident or on purpose is of no interest to me.

I personally on have "reg" BCI and am quite happy with just that. But with all the breeding going on, I simply inquired if a snake was ever produced that exhibited both strains of albinism simultaneously in the same neonate.

Not a discussion on ethics or what peoples opinions are on the pairing itself.

I am not here to debate right or wrong.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Not meant to offend, but ignorance means limited knowledge or no knowledge of the subject. Since they are unrelated, both strains would be produced. No reason whatsoever to put them together until the day comes when we have our pocket DNA testers. Ethics really doesnt come into play in my book, rather it would be a waste of time effort and money for all parties involved.

I could understand some people being offended by the pairing for several different reasons, but if has been done, it's done and was wondering if such an anomaly existed.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Right on Frank!

Hi Frank -

Of course, one never knows what is actually going on in BoaLand, but I beleive the answer to be NO.

But I do know that there is a guy out there (I forget his name) doing just this ... Kahl Albino x Sharp Albino

... if they are truly incompatible as the SINGLE orignal "test" breeding indicated years ago (and I believe the orignal pairing included at least 1 parent being a Het), then you would expect to get DHets for each strain (no albinos) ... this outcome would convince me that they are truly incompatible (I have always questioned this myself, but this would make me a believer).

As far as breeding the DHets back together would be interesting just to see if all the experts out there can tell a Kahl from a Sharp when they come from the same parents.

In my opinion the 2 strains are of equal value and always have been ... only the market hype and manufactured perceptions has created somewhat of a pricing variance ... although we are all entitled to our opinions.

I would hope that there are other breeders out there doing the Kahl Albino x Sharp Albino breeding. It is these types of scenarios that make the hobby interesting and fun ... just as much fun as created a new morph ... and probably more rewarding for the true hobbyst.

I hope my reply does not create too much criticism because I do not have any time on my hands or time to defend my comments ... nor do I intend do.

Wow, just to think that I could have simply answered "NO".

Till Next Time ... Bill

Hello Bill,

As far as breeding the DHets back together would be interesting just to see if all the experts out there can tell a Kahl from a Sharp when they come from the same parents.

The thing that interested me is the chance of both strains appearing at once. It should be different from the both.

Not saying better, just was wondering what they may look like, I can't be the ONLY person plagued by such things, if it's not this it's always something. That's why it's an Anomaly LOL
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Good Point ... I hadn't even thought about that ... my brain seems to be working at only half throttle these days.

Bill

Value is created by supply and demand. There has always been a larger supply of Kahl line albinos and hets than their sharp counterparts.
Also, the general perception is that an "average" Sharp is a nicer albino than an "average" Kahl. I say average to take the line bred and selectively bred animals out of the equation. Hence, creating more demand for the Sharps due to the looks factor.
In recent years, great efforts have been made to enhance the colors of the Kahl line albinos thereby creating more demand for them. However, supply has overpowered the demand resulting in lower prices. IMO, prices would be lower (more like an anery) if it weren't for the efforts of those that worked diligently with the Kahl line albinos to add some much needed color.

As for the original offspring of the sharp albino to the Kahl het. The story straight out of Brian Sharps mouth in Daytona '08 was that approximately 17 babies were born that were all het sharp poss het kahl. The males were distributed into the pet trade as normals. The females were held back by Brian for future breeding stock. Obviously, these females were poss het kahl meaning some were probably het sharp and het kahl, others were just het sharp. No way to know if those that were het kahl passed their genes on because they were never bred to another kahl to see if they were in fact het kahl. This means, there is a good possibility that there are animals in the industry that are labeled sharp strain albinos (or hets) and they ALSO carry (heterozygous) the kahl gene.

So if someone pairs a kahl and a sharp in the future and out pops an albino, it's probable that the sharp is a het kahl and not that they've miraculously made the genes compatible.

I have a theory that no one seems to agree with regarding a double homozygous Kahl/Sharp. Kahl's tend to be more red and Sharps tend to be more orange. What color do you get when you combine red and orange? Kind of a brown color. Make you think of anything special...? Like... CHOCOLATE SHARPS! And even more compelling is the fact that they tend to lose the chocolate color and just be an intense orange as they mature. Which line of the two tends to lose color as it ages? The Kahls... err... red ones! And which tends to gain some color, the Sharps... errr... orange ones!

So that's my theory. No idea if it holds water or not and I could care less one way or the other. It was just a passing thought in my head one day and I felt like it made SOME sense!

Good discussions always center around the Sharps X Kahls... fun stuff!
jb

my sharp albino female

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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

Hi Jonathan -

Well, I just typed a lengthy response before accidentally hitting some key that wiped everything out. Oh well, maybe I will be more brief this time.

Being a long time friend of both Pete and Brian (something like 20 years), I have had several conversations with them on this very subject. And as I recall your explanation was accurately presented. It did confirm a visual x het breeing. But I don't rely on this single breeding as confirmation. As I recall, Pete's first albino litter had 18-19 non-albinos appear before the 1st albino popped out (I recall maybe 3 albinos). A Kahl Albino x Sharp Albino would convince me. Also, I always feel uncertain about the use of the word "probable" ... "possible" makes me feel better.

As to "supply & demand", I have always been a strong advocate of this basic economic theory until this past year ... it seems that there are so many new morphs that appeared on the market, that demand seems to be driven more by marketing and simply "newness" ... I can name several boas in very limited supply with only average demand, while some boas produced in the 1000s are heavily promoted. I guess I should ad that affordability (lower prices) plays a major role in demand.

And lastly, your Sharp is absolutely georgeous ... hardly typical. This is major problem with the forum pics ... people (including myself) post photos of their premium animals.

I feel somewhat qualified to comment on this subject (although it is an opinion) because I have only 2 albinos in my entire collection (no Sunglows).

I am sure my first writing was better, but I lost the zone that I was first in.

Till Next Time ... Bill

Thanks for your feedback Bill. And I appreciate your compliments on my sharp girl

As for demand, don't forget that marketing creates demand. Otherwise there would be no such thing as marketing, adverstising, and sales people. Also, you mentioned new morphs in low supply with a low price tag. The economy easily affects price as the newest greatest thing is only a worthwhile purchase if it makes economic sense. Also, it needs to be appealing. I don't know which mutation you're referring to, but maybe it's appeal is limited to a few folks in the hobby...?

Finally, I think just using the word "demand" leaves a bit unexplained (but it's what we've inherited so I do it). A lot of people can want something and therefore create "demand", but only those with the money to pay for it create the TRUE demand that is associated with the supply to figure out an equilibrium price.

Again, good stuff Bill. Thanks for your comments and insight!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

>>Thanks for your feedback Bill. And I appreciate your compliments on my sharp girl
>>
>>As for demand, don't forget that marketing creates demand. Otherwise there would be no such thing as marketing, adverstising, and sales people. Also, you mentioned new morphs in low supply with a low price tag. The economy easily affects price as the newest greatest thing is only a worthwhile purchase if it makes economic sense. Also, it needs to be appealing. I don't know which mutation you're referring to, but maybe it's appeal is limited to a few folks in the hobby...?
>>
>>Finally, I think just using the word "demand" leaves a bit unexplained (but it's what we've inherited so I do it). A lot of people can want something and therefore create "demand", but only those with the money to pay for it create the TRUE demand that is associated with the supply to figure out an equilibrium price.
>>
>>Again, good stuff Bill. Thanks for your comments and insight!
>>jb
>>-----
>>Jonathan Brady
>>*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

the Sharp strain is over hyped? If you look at the original post, it asked about genetics. It said and asked nothing about value. But for some reason, you always seem to throw that in when a question is asked about the two strains. Wouldn't you say that you did your fair share of hyping the snow boa? To me, if something constantly sells for a greater value, it is worth more. Have you ever thought maybe Sharps sell for more because there is not as many of them, or maybe because of the paradigm boa? It's just common sense that they are worth a different value because more people own and produce the Kahl strain. And I'm not trying to knock the Kahl strain. I love the reds it shows and I'm a huge fan of BOTH strains. I just wish we could all support each others projects, instead of knocking the breeders that produce them. This is the boa forum, right?

Michael Burton

Actually, I do not see where I was "knocking" any specific breeders, as you have so openly addressed me personally. I usually have a pretty good basis for my comments which are supported by networking (via phone) with other breeders ... conversations that you won't find on any of the open forums.

This is exactly why my participation in these forums is so limited. I guess I will leave the future forum discussions for "those in the know".

Oh I see. I'm just not "in the know". Easy way out Bill, but you didn't address what I said. In the original post he asked nothing about the value, hype, or manufactured perceptions. He asked about the combatibility of the strains and that was it. I don't frequent the forums as much as I used to but I have seen you post that same statement before when it had nothing to do with the post. When you say there is "market hype" and "manufactured perceptions" you are clearly talking about some of the breeders that produce them. My point is that you are bringing up something that has nothing to do with the original post and I'm trying to figure out why. You also said "In my opinion the 2 strains are of equal value and always have been" This statement is just untrue. Sharps sell for more because there is less of them. Can you please tell us some of your insider information so I can understand your point better? And please tell me why you brought up "market hype" when it had nothing to do with the original post?

Michael Burton

I really do not want to get into a lot of back and forth chatter, but let me briefly address a couple of your comments.

First, this is exactly the problem with written communications (both forum dialogue and emails) ... too much room for mis-interpretation, etc. For example, I never said you were "not in the know" ... my comment was just the opposite, meaning that the heavy posters seem to have all the answers and many come across as the "know-it-alls" (you decide for yourself where you fit). Also, "taking the easy way out"? ... sounds more like someone trying to challenge you rather than simply asking for clarification.

As far as my comment on "hype" (I didn't know that I was going to have to explain myself on everything I say), Jeff Ronne explained it very well sometime in the past ... not verbatum, but it's like a box of chocolates ... you can get too much of it to the point it is sicking. A reasonable amount of hype is OK ... merely be excited about something new or wanting to share is to be expected. And on a side note, I recall most of my Snow boa marketing was done in my classified ads ... very little on the forums.

Now for the one you have been waiting for ... value of the 2 albino bloodlines. It just popped out as I was typing ... probably from all the "Sharp hype" tossed out in the forums ... too many chocolates for me. I like them both, and as I said in my original reply, I have only 1 pair of albinos in my entire collection. Heck, the Sunglows have beat down the values of both albino bloodlines, and there are plenty of Sunglows available for everyone (I don't have any). And yes (previous reply), the Paradigm has added value to the Sharp bloodline.

Hope this answers most of your questions.

I am done with this string.

I hope all of this hype boosted values of both strains. (Maybe Sharps a little bit more)

Michael Burton

Nice Kahl !! ...I mean Sharp.... I mean Karp. Nice Sharp (right?)

Tracy Barker owns him now. But he is a beauty. When I sold him to her I used all of the money to move to California.

Michael Burton

Great post Bill!

asked the vary same question of Brian Sharp a while back, his answer....

Kahl x Sharp results

Also ran the numbers assuming you could not tell them apart what it would entail to create and find one dual Kahl/Sharp albino...

Proving out Kahl/Sharp babies

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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>asked the vary same question of Brian Sharp a while back, his answer....
>>
>>Kahl x Sharp results
>>
>>
>>Also ran the numbers assuming you could not tell them apart what it would entail to create and find one dual Kahl/Sharp albino...
>>
>>Proving out Kahl/Sharp babies
>>
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Great post Dave! I have both Sharps and Kahls and personally I think the Sharps do look better, there are some Kahls I have seen though that I would not mind getting a hand on. What I have noticed is that when young, Kahls look better but they tend to lose color as they age, the opposite seems to happen with the sharps, they gain color as they mature. The term "banana" was coined by many when their Kahl albinos would "yellow up", this really does not happen with Sharps. I actually have a Kahl banana myself.

Now, it does hit a nerve whit numerous people when there is talk about breeding the two and I completely understand why. There are huge consequences involved with breeding both strains together and you have to take those into consideration. Unless you have special powers, there would be no definite way to seperate the Kahl/Sharp albinos, Kahl albinos and Sharp albinos from a double het. breeding. To put those boas on the market would be a big mistake and they would have to be kept and bred back to each strain INDIVIDUALLY to be proven out. You would be looking at at least 3 generations or more to actually prove out a sharp/kahl albino. In the end you would get boas in the market in which you would not know exactly which line the boa came from.

BTW - I don't consider myself an expert, just an opinion on the matter by someone that works with both strains. I would be curious to see what Rich and John from SalmonBoa think.

Yeah and the point many fail to grasp is the breeding trials to prove out the DH X DH babies would produce even more babies exponentially, Most of which would also be unknown genetics!

Add to that the further on down the line real probability of putting two "Sharp" or "Kahl" animals together and not knowing each was het for the other strain. Yup, you'd think you knew what the babies are but in some instances you'd be wrong. Explain that to your buyers a few years later when their Albino won't produce any albino babies because they think it's one strain while it's actually the other!!!!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats