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I own several snakes at home which happen to be all constrictors. But I do have a couple wild caught rat snakes that are hell on wheels. I would like to step up in the herp world and get something a little more challenging. I am not stupid like Steve Irwin or any of those idiots to try to handle them bare handed and that kind of crap. Does anyone know what a good starter venomous that isn't as aggressive that would help me get some experience? Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

First you post:
First off asswipe he's 15 YO. This isn't an essay and I dont think he is really concerned about his misspellings and grammar usage. If you dislike it that much then get your damn teaching degree and home school him hotshot. I am sure that has he goes through school in life he will learn to correct his grammar and begin having a slightly better sentence structure and all of the unnecessary bulls*** that we dont really give a rats ass about in this forum. If anybody is a prick it is the people who are discouraging him from staying in the forum. If you notice he hasn't come back to talk since that time because people decided to be "Pricks" since that is everyones favorite insult in this forum. Instead of discouraging him by telling him technically that he is inadequate to be in this forum because he can't spell as good as some hopefully college graduates that we have in this forum. He's young and still learning. Quit being "Pricks" and give the kid some respect for atleast coming out among the people here and asking a question that to him was legitimate. Now who are the PRICKS? PRICKS

And then, admitting that you have no venomous keeping experience, you give copperheadkid your sage advice on keeping venomous.
And then you ask for advice from the very crowd that you called asswipes and pricks?
You should read the posts again. Nobody said that his question wasn't legitimate. Nobody said he should reconsider being involved with venomous snakes - except you!
I guess they don't teach "irony" in school anymore either. Maybe an afternoon skipping school and spent watching "Teaching Mrs. Tingle" would be beneficial.

All that said:
Two common answers to your question.
1. There are no starter snakes. Study the snake you want to get and prepare to take care of that particular snake.
2. Copperheads are generally not aggressive and are considered to not be fatal in the event of a mistake although pain, suffering and loss of tissue cannot be ruled out.

Rolling Around Laughing In The Limburger,
The Mouse In The House

Im glad I made your day buddy. I posted my question before I read the boy's question and then your answers. I am simply saying that you didnt have to nag at the boy. Not everyone can spell as good as you. Your right I have no venomous experience but I do have experience with fast acting snakes and I know their actions and have learned to react. There technically isnt a starter venomous snake but I was telling the boy he needed prior experience with owning snakes in general before stepping straight into venomous. A venomous snake can give you a good run for your money, im sure if you dont know how to react to a quick snake. I just didnt like how you was nagging at him for asking a simple question. That simply wasnt called for. You couldnt have made it simpler for him and everyone else if you had just given him an answer and not a lecture. Quite honestly I dont give a rats ass if noone gives me a response to mine. I just didnt feel it was right to throw all of that into a 15 YO's face when he was only asking a question. Obviously he made it clear enough that you could understand what he was asking that you could go through and make all the corrections and then give him a grade. So if you understood what he was asking then why couldnt you have just given him a simple answer? It would have been a little more polite. He wasn't being rude when asking so there was no reason for you to be rude in the answer.

Despite what all of AnonEMouse' critics have said, I have read and re-read the post, that most of you politically correct folks want to believe was insulting, and find it to be perfectly reasonable. The Mouse NEVER told the person that he/she was stupid, yet most who responded to AnonEMouse' post deemed it necessary to be insulting, and apparently you all felt justified in your attacks.

The advice was SOUND: Stay in school. People will be much more inclined to listen to, or read the words of, someone who can SPELL and construct a sentence in such a way that it can be UNDERSTOOD without a translator. The Mouse in The House then proceeded to answer the question, just as The Mouse did to YOUR post looking for help....

What REALLY GRIPES ME is that this "starter snake" question has been BEATEN to DEATH. I answered the very same question IN DEPTH not more than 10-14 days ago, and have seen the same question asked at least 50 times in the 6 years I've been reading these message boards.... Why can't people READ what's already been written and THEN ask related and more advanced questions about the subject? (That was rhetorical) I'll tell you why they WON'T search before asking.... it's because they need INSTANT GRATIFICATION and they can't be bothered with doing research or homework to get the information they seek... Like the idiot that posted for people with Gaboon breeding experience to post "all they know" about breeding Gaboon vipers, like there's been a cook book written on the subject or something, so he can learn how to breed Gaboon vipers by reading the response to ONE POST... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I've been keeping reptiles and amphibians since 1966 and I still don't know half as much as I want to know about them. I've asked hundreds of questions in the time I've spend on the Internet on message boards, but I've never asked someone to tell me everything they know about a topic...

Do a search on "starter" or "beginner" "hots" (a term I despise) and you'll find half a hundred replies. If one or more of those answers won't suit you then email me and I'll write you a book.

In the interim, I'll stand on AnonEMouse's side of this debate and challenge anyone who will take the time to READ the post, that seems to be so controversial to you, to find anything *really* insulting or demeaning about it. It's all in your dirty little minds.

Tom Townsend
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"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"

It is not about what the mouse was saying...It was the way he said it. He didn't to call the boy stupid. Correcting his post...like a paper turned in for a grade...was insulting enough. I am a big advocate of education (In that I agree with the mouse)...some of these posts scare me. But what (I feel) should be the priority, is encouraging these kids to ask questions so they can learn the safest and best info. If we start grading their presentations, they will probably go elsewhere for answers. For the record, Mr. Mouse, I have kept and taught about venomous reptiles for over twenty five years. I agree that going back to school would surely help the young man...But if you want him to listen...Try treating him more like a person and less like a student and your advice will go farther...Frank

First..I too get frustrated over the same questions being asked over and over. I have complained frequently that too much money is spent on buying snakes...and not enough on buying the books and learning about them. We do live in an age of the intellectually lazy.

Second... for reasons previously stated, I do not think it fair for you to call us who defended the boy as "Dirty Minded". It's about manners-Not Political correctness. He has a right to be treated with respect...Dammit! At least he was asking questions. Language can be a subtle weapon...or it can encourage. I prefer to encourage learning...and tweak the Beard of the Pompous...Frank

Frank,

This is basically what I have been trying to point out during this whole conversation. The kid only asked a simple question and yes he had some misspellings in his question but like you said, atleast he was asking them. The guy that replied first obviously knew what he was asking because he was able to FULLY correct his mistakes. So his misspelling could not have been too bad. The fact of the matter is that he and everyone who said the same to him was rude. WE should encourage his education and not pound on him for some misspellings. Furthermore knoone knows the boys background for them to say anything about his education. I am sure that as time progresses the boy will start to correct his grammar and start using better sentence structure and be able to spell a lot better. But for the time being all he had to do was just maybe correct the misspellings for his future reference and answer his question. Thank You Frank for standing on his side on this because atleast someone else in this forum is holding a level head about this.

If you are looking to aquire a venomous sp of snake you should have the will and common sense to atleast do a search and somwhat educate your self on the matter before coming onto a forum of mostly experts and asking very basic questions that one should know if they had ever kept a cornsnake. Everything regarding a first hot has been written at some point or another and all you have to do is a search to find out the basics. Not doing so tells me atleast that you are not commited to the endevour of which you seek info on and I am not going to take time out of my day to respond (granted im doing so now). If you had come to us with questions like, "Ok, I was reading about basic husbandry of A.c.contortrix ssp and I was wondering if you who have experince with this sp could give me your take on each race?" OR "Due to the vast geographical range in which this sp is found, what ssp would make the easiest captive based on enviromental needs?" or somthing else along those lines then your question would have been taken more seriously, atleast by myself and I wouldnt be ranting right now. However, your post was the same old song and dance and not well researched at all and now you wonder why people are being so mean.

New bi keepers have to relize that this is the PINIACLE OF HERP KEEPING and one must damn near be a Herpitologist inorder to have to correct experince and mind state inorder to keep these wonderfull animals safely and correctly. This means useing latin names, knowing AV protacall as well as basic handleing equitment and techniques and haveing all knowledge relevant to keeping these animals before even inquireing about which sp to start off with. Thats comes much later. Why would I want to tell ya what is a suitable new bi hot if you havent proven that you could properly care for it? I take this as, "I want to get somthing that wont kill me, throw it in a cage and I will learn from there.". Definately not the way to start off becoming a hot herper.

Now I admit I am being rather harsh, as are others but you have to understand, what you do as a hot keeper reflects on all of us and I am not willing to progress you further if I dont feel you have the knowledge to properly and safely keep them,. If you screw up, have an incedent and somhow the press gets ahold of it, well, you may have screwed up the right for everybody in your county, state or even the country to keep these animals. Not a chance I or anyone else who is serious about this hobby is willing to take.

Now im not saying stop asking question or continueing your quest but I will say that you will not be well recived if you dont take the time to find out the basics on your own. There are tons of articles, post and websites with this info already written that you could find easily by doing a web search.

Bottom line, do some research, keep the passion and come back when you have alittle bit better idea of what your talking about. Id be willing to bet that you are recived much better the second go around if you took any of my advise.

Stateing the facts before the fangs retract,
Jeremy

P.S As you can tell, gramar is not my strong point either.

None of us are saying that the questions were not annoying to those of you who have answered them a dozen times. I am sure they get that way over a period of time. I repair computers and electronics for a living. I also get tired of the same questions:

What is the most stable operating system?
What is the best burning software?
How do you do this?
How do you do that?
etc.
etc.
etc.

I post all of the answers to these on my website and I post my email for them to see. But they still continue to ask the same questions in the emails. Bottom line is that people were extremely rude based on his spelling and grammar. I am sure that these questions get annoying and I apologize for the inconvenience. But at the same time people don't have to be rude in the replies. If you are going to be rude and have a serious problem with the "annoying, previously answered questions" It's simple: dont' answer them and save yourself the trouble.

Im trying to help you out! This post had nothing to do with guy down bellow and everything to do with your post. Like I said, im no English teacher my self. However, I am rather well versed in all aspects of venomous snake husbandry, taxonomy, envenomation protacall and natural history and these are the things that matter when one wants to keep venomous animals. As I said, your post showed nothing that indicates you have already researched anything on your own regarding the topic and thats why I posted my 2 pennies. There is no easy way around this. This is the way it has to be. Sure people take the back ally way but then they are endangering themselfs and the hobby!! Not to mention that they look like fools when you meet them at herp shows and they cant tell ya what Agkistrodon contortrix is.

Again I make the statement, do an online search and educate your self alittle before asking basic stuff. If you cant find it, you cant find it but if you cant even use latin names to discribe what sp your looking for or which sp of non ven you keep, then you need to do more home work.

My 2 pennies yet again,
J

P.S Yes, latin names have alot to do with it! If you get hit by lets say a captive Austrelaps superbus (not likely here in the sates)and you tell the US doctor that a copperhead bit me your going to be in deep ____ cause you wont be getting the correct AV!!!!! Make sense? BTW, 5 extra brownie points to ya if you can tell me were the genus Austrelaps occurs and give me a breif discription.

P.P.S I hear what your saying about people asking over and over and over again but hey, you get paid for that!!! If ya wana throw me a few bucks I will answer everything

Man I didnt mean to snap at you. I completely understand what you are saying. At the same time I also agree. It's just simply the matter that if people have that much of a problem with answering peoples questions that they have to be RUDE in the process then dont answer them at all and MAKE them research them on their own. I do my homework on snakes in general as well as crocadilians because my alligator is my favorite animal in my posession. But if people ask questions about them I will still help them out and it will be without the rudeness. People have to crawl before they can walk. If there is someone that is more knowledgeable than me in a particular field I like to talk with them first hand about my questions and continue to read the books so I get information from both ends instead of reading someone elses questions. I have gotten two different responses to my question and both have had different info. So that is more that I learn that wasn't in the books that I read. Now do you see my point in why I ask. I can find MORE sources of info rather than just the ones that was answered previously in which someone can most likely have more info later on.

... There's more than one operating system?

windows 95,98,98se,me,2000,xp

So that 'Linux' dude was just making that crap up. I KNEW it!

LOL......uhhhhh. Not technically. There are more operating systems besides Microsoft Products. I personally would prefer Linux or Unix over a Windows based system any day. They are FAR more stable and FAR more reliable than anything that bill gates could EVER make. Windows operating system just so happen to run the market right at the current moment. Which is why Bill Gates is the RICHEST man in the world today. OH well s*** happens right?

I was just kidding... I'm a CIS major.

i know there isnt a cookbook on how to breed gaboon vipers but still someone asking for help on how to breed them doesnt make them an idiot. i know a few people breeding them as well as myself and we all have different methods and views. i have looked forward to reading all your posts Tom but that wasnt called for. im not trying to start an argument and i definetly respect your ability but i just dont think whoever asked that questions deserved to be called an idiot.

ryan

You need to be very careful when you read what I write (most of the time), as I attempt to select very specific words to try to avoid confusion about what it is that I am trying to say. Because your feelings have been injured, I will make another attempt at what I *meant* versus what I think you got out of my words.

Asking questions is one way we learn... well, most of us, and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with asking questions. What I tried to say is that I believe it is presumptuous and LAZY of someone to post a one line request "Can someone tell me everything there is to know about ....." and for them to expect an response that actually does tell them "everything" about a subject. That's what rubs my hind end raw.

If a person posts a SPECIFIC question like: "I am having trouble getting one-piece sheds from my Rhino viper. I'm currently keeping the enclosure at approximately 60% relative humidity with daily mistings and I'm not sure if I'm keeping the enclosure too humid or if it's too dry. Can someone give me a little insight into correcting this shedding problem?" This is a quickly made up scenerio, but I think if you look at it you'll understand that it's more focused and possible to answer.

When a post goes up from someone who wants the people on the message board to spend their time posting all the information in the world about a topic in one little neat place so the (LAZY) initiator of the question doesn't have to do ANY research, then I think it is idiotic to to expect an answer in the very first place.... Why should someone, anyone, take hours (because capturing and writing *everything* about a subject can surely take a lifetime of hard work and reasearch) to sit and write "everything" they know about any subject, when it is my not so humble opinion that anyone so lazy to frame a qquestion in that way probably won't be in the hobby long enough to apply the answer anyway.

You have NO IDEA how many hours (probably months when you add it all up) that I have spent in front of this keyboard, answering questions on message boards and through email about any manner of topics, with nothing more to show for it than the SATISFACTION that I helped someone who was willing to take a few minutes to do a little homework and ask the right questions. No, there isn't a list of questions I will answer and a list that I won't. It boils down to having to be selective about those posts that have a look or feel about them. It's all subjective and I know that may not be fair or even right, but there isn't enough time in a day to work, spend time with family, take care of animals *and* babysit every runny nose on the planet who doesn't have any respect for the time of the people who frequent these boards, or any other for that matter. Maybe that's all it boils down to... respect... the far greater majority of people who would as the world to tell all, don't have the time to say thank you for the answers they *do* get, and wouldn't know what to do with the information if they had it available to them.

The fact is that I can spend an hour or two researching almost any topic I am interested in, and become learned enough to at leat *try* whatever it is that I want to do without having to ask someone to tell me *everything* there is to know about whatever that topic is...

Learning is much like building a structure. You must first lay a good foundation in order to construct the rest of the building. Without a solid foundation, the building will crumble. People are always asking how to put the roof on the building before finding out how to lay that foundation. If you go back and look at the answer I gave a few days back on "beginner" venomous, you will see that I took a very long time to spell out what I believe is the right thing to do if a person is interested in keeping venomous snakes. I know the post isn't *that* old, and I also know that if a person searched the boards he or she would not have any difficulty finding the post. That the same questions get asked over and over again, supports my theory that most people who post on this kind of forum are more interested in seeing their name on the board than they are on contributing anything usefull, or in finding usefull information.

The bottom line is that I wanted to apologise to you, specifically, as I felt I must have injured you in some way. For that I am sorry. I intended my post to be general in nature and apparently I fell short of the mark. I'll try to do a better job of answering those questions that I feel qualified to answer and ignoring those that I feel don't deserve a response.

I am ALWAYS available through email. Sometimes it takes me 24 hours or so to write a response, but I generally will drop a short note to let someone know it will take me a little longer to write a proper answer than I have at the moment.

Tom Townsend
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"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"

It doesn't matter how aggressive the snake is, because you absolutely cannot leave yourself open to the possibility of a bite, no matter how tame the snake is. Betting on a snake's temperment is not worth your health. If you're not open to a bite at all, then it doesn't matter how many times the snake tries to strike at you, because it's never going to hit. Smaller vipers are probably the easiest hots to handle safely, because they are easiest to hook. But even after over a year of viper ownership, I feel in no way closer to being able to handle an elapid. I'm sure they're completely different. So if your ultimate goal is an elapid, starting with a viper wouldn't really be worth your time, I think.

Thanks for the advice and just answering the question without a bunch of added unnecessary crap like alot of people in here are. I was highly interested in an eyelash viper. The mouse in the house made a comment about deciding which animal I am interested in owning and studying it. Which makes alot of sense. I have owned alot of constricting snakes in which it is always better to own something smaller and easier to handle to start off with to learn their habits. You could study a reticulated python all you want before the purchase but when you get the snake it could turn out slightly different than what it said in the book. More than likely it will be a while before I decide to even try to purchase a venomous reptile. I am just interested in learning more about them first before getting into the ownership portion. Thanks again man for you help.

Best thing to do is see if you can find someone to be a mentor to you, if possible. It's much safer that way, for you, AND for the snake. It's how I learned, along with doing a ton of research. As far as "the best first hot", there really isn't one, I think copperheads make ideal animals. I would stay away from eyelash vipers at first, they can be a little tricky at times, mine were pretty flighty and nippy. They can be a pain to get off the hook with their prehensile tail as well. Once you get used to certain hots, eyelashes are pretty simple, but NEVER underestimate their strikerange, it's amazing. A few last things, make sure they are legal in your area, and buy captive bred animals.
Good luck.

TJ,

Man, thanks alot. I really appreciate the advice. I will probably start out with a copperhead and then do some further research on eyelash vipers. The whole mentor thing is an excellent idea. I never thought of that and I will take that into further consideration (meaning: moreless try to find someone with the experience and knowledge to help me out). Once again thanks alot for the help. If you have read the earlier forums and are offended in any way by my language with the other guy I apologize. Its people like you in these forums who really help people out. Thanks a bunch

Back to real questions! I always like to introduce the people I've trained to our good old Pygmy rattler. It is small, hardy and has that delightful warning signal! It is also safer (venom wise) than your average copperhead and aggressive enough to teach you to be wary. For Elapid people...I pick the nastiest racer I can find and tell them to treat it like it's venomous...Count the bites and then ask yourself if you want to try that with a Mamba or cobra...nuff said. Frank

that is more less what I was asking. I wanted to know if there was anything that I could get as a prerequisite that could help me prepare for a fast acting venomous snake.

What the folks above have told you is true. Some points to ponder:

1. Owning one "type" of venomous snake is not necessarily preparation for another. The habits, reactions, strike range, strike method, temperament, physiology, etc. are way too different. They require completely different handling techniques. Owning a Copperhead could help prepare you for owning a Cottonmouth, but don't think for a minute that it helps with all Crotalids. A good sized Fer-de-lance will show you the error in that approach. An Eastern Diamondback will prepare you for a Mamba like a housecat will prepare you for a Bengal Tiger. Owning a less lethal venomous snake may help in learning proper use of the tools of the trade in a somewhat safer environment.

2. A period of handling all of your nonvenomous snakes as if they were venomous BEFORE you purchase a venomous one will help a lot.

3. A mentor ( a responsible, experienced one) is invaluable.

4. There is no such thing as a tame venomous snake. You may form a "relationship" with the snake, but I promise you it just doesn't care about that. Never trust a venomous snake.

Very good advice. Thank You all a bunch. I really appreciate the advice. It wont be for awhile when I am able to get my first due to the fact that where I live it is illegal to own venomous snakes. But I do plan to move and when I do hopefully it will be where they are perimitted. During this time it will help me to learn about them and study them more. Thanks again guys.

np.

I would recommend a Gaboon Viper, they are very docile, however very hot.

Joe

My most recent post on this topic was August 17th, which makes it longer than two weeks as I previously stated.

Here's the link if you're interested:
"Beginner Venomous"

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"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"