Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I keep having problems with king snakes that I NEVER have with corn snakes. I call it the king snake syndrome. This time it’s a hatchling eastern king. He is growing pretty well, he’s bigger than his female sibling and she has had no problems. He eats well and defecates but after he’s done digesting the mouse he always has a lump in his middle like he just ate a fuzzy mouse? I thought about putting a couple of drops of cooking oil on the mouse and see if it helps pass whatever it is that’s in there. All my snakes are kept under the same conditions. The temps right now are about 80 and I have been feeding these guys all winter long. None of them have puked up any mice. I have a speckled king baby and have had no problems with her. Other symptoms I've had with other kings is that they had developed a lump that was maybe 4 to 5 inches from their head. Most of the time these kings have died. Has anyone out there seen anything like this?

Have any pictures?
-----
1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

No, but it looks exactly like he just ate a fuzzy mouse even though he defecated from the mouse that he previously ate. He's been this way about 2 weeks.

Sounds like "gas" to me. I honestly don't know what else it could be.

Maybe someone with more experience will chime in.
-----
1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

What type of bedding are you using?

~ Mike Russo

Newspaper

I had 8 hatchling kings get those symptoms since last August. I had hatchling corns as well, but none showed this. The snakes would show a persistent lump after feeding, about the size of their meal... after defecating.

The snakes that got it the worst would have the swelling go away and come back, like they had a persistent gas problem. They'd appear completely normal, then go back to bloated. Outwardly, some acted lethargic, and some acted completely normal. 4 of the 8 completely recovered. A couple of the ones that died started wasting quickly at some point and died shortly there after.

I think there was a problem with their food source. Whats your food source? PM me on that one.

I found to control it, if I saw an unusual bulge, I'd wait for the swelling to go completely down, and then wait a few more days, and then offer the snake a smaller than normal meal.

None of my adult kings have had this, and none of the other species I keep got this, babies or adults.

This is very interesting information. I have never seen this issue before, but i would like to learn more about it. Please keep as much as you can on here and i would love for the O/P to let us know how this turns out for his animal.

Thanks!

~ Mike Russo

I've had Apalachicola kings and Florida kings get this. Please contact me privately so we can discuss.

I'd get the snake tested for cryptosporidium. The lump is a characterstic of this protozoa. It is highly contagious and nearly always fatal. Are you keeping your corn snakes away from your kings? This might be the reason (if it's crypto) that it's spread to other kings, but not your corns.

At any rate, I'd at least take a snake that died to a vet and see if they can determine what's happening.

Tim

Though regurg is a primary symtom of crypto this was my first thought as well. In any case the recommendation to seek a qualitied vet's diagnosis is well advised.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Now that i think about it a few months i remember Shannon describing these symptoms on this forum.. Thankfully, i have never had to deal with Crypo, but I think this is a good "blind" diagnosis.. And, I agree 100% that a vet visit is in order ASAP!

~ Mike Russo

No, all my snakes are side by side and I have never had more than one snake at a time get it. No corns have ever had this problem.

Rick, email me your food source as well. I had a snake with this exact same thing a few weeks ago. I gave him Flagyl for it and the lump went away. I think it was gas because it felt soft and he too had already emptied out. Interesting.

One more thing, I took mine to the vet. The lump was soft and not firm and never a single regurg. The vet said crypto presents a firm mass and almost always regurg. syptoms.

Trust me on that. None of my snakes regurged, the onset was too quick, and the the coming and going of the same lumps is not indicative of crypto.

I agree if my vets info is correct. The lump would stay and be firm. Regurg. is almost always present (he stated). Sounds like it could be a bacterial infection that is getting passed on from snake to snake. A vet visit is in order to at least get the proper medication and rule out anything else.

In my collection it has shown to be a direct result of feeding. I do not believe this can be passed from snake to snake.

I had new snakes that had been quarantined in a separate room with bottled water get this thing. The only thing in common was the same food source.

I agree in that none of my snakes have this except for the one and I've never had more than one snake have it at a time. I have two other kings about the same size who are fine, and several corns and a small gray rat close by that are fine.

Just more stuff I forgot. I had my snake tested just in case and it was negative.(twice) After the lump went down the day following the first Flagyl treatment, the vet stated that in crypto the lump would not have gone down. I do not know much about the disease but this is what I was told.

How do snakes first catch this?is it airborn?

Seems to be in their food.

If it is crypto they can pass it VERY easily. What my snake had was a bacterial bloom from eating too large a meal after being warmed up from the cool room. Theory from the vet anyway.

I had two graybands do this, both acquired from the same person at the same time. The stools were not normal color however.

The vet told me it was a bacterial infection after fecal analysis. He said the food source was likely the reason, as in thawed rodents that were not maintained at proper conditions when frozen for example. His words, his guess.

He administered some drugs, including Flagyl. Snakes showed no symptoms after that. Hopefully your story ends well.
-----
Mark

Hey Mark, did you continue to use the same food source after that? Could you email me where you got your feeders also? Sounds JUST like what happen to me and I have suspected the feeder mice were bad. Maybe they got thawed out at some point and the company re-froze them and sent them anyway. Mine were still frozen when they arrived and are kept that way until I thaw them out for feeding. Just wondering if this same company is sending bad feeders to everyone. My other snakes have not had problems and are eating from the same shipment. Hell, I just ordered a bunch last night!

The previous owner probably had the bad mice and probably kept the snakes in poor conditions prior to me getting them, if indeed that was the cause of the problem. My mice then were from the Mouse Factory, and I never had a problem with my snakes produced here.
-----
Mark

The vet told me it was a bacterial infection after fecal analysis. He said the food source was likely the reason, as in thawed rodents that were not maintained at proper conditions when frozen for example. His words, his guess.

HUH? That makes no sense. Is your vet saying that snakes that eat mice that are slightly decaying will get a bacterila infection? Some of my healtheist snakes are my garbage feeders that I throw in 2-3 day old smelly mice. If anything it seems to boost their immune system.

is this (bubble effect) effecting small neonates-yearling snakes or adults as well??

I've only seen it in young snakes. Up to about six months old. Seems it doesn't happen when they're on weaned mice, but I can't be sure.

This only started happening after I started ordering mice online. I used to use a local supplier for frozen mice, but I moved and thats no longer an option.

I've only seen it in young snakes. Up to about six months old. Seems it doesn't happen when they're on weaned mice, but I can't be sure.

hmmm, that is interesting. I never feed my neonates old pinkies or fuzzies. I just throw those away. I wonder if younger snakes are more apt to get infected than larger ones from decaying mice..

The snake that I had the problem with was two years old. He is fine now and feeds like a champ. I tried to listen for him farting to see if it was gas. Ha Ha Ha! No, it was some sort of infection but has cleared.

Yes snakes can get food poisoning. It is rare and you need the right pathogenic kinds of bacteria, but it is possible. And it would be more obvious in neonates that do not yet have a fully competent immune system.

I will feed a mouse that has sat for a day, but beyond that when they start to bloat and stink you are playing a risky game. Most of the time it will be fine. But a dead animal is a great anaerobic environment and perfect for growing some REALLY nasty bacteria like clostridium (botulism and tetanus ect).

Snakes in the wild probably do scavenge, and they probably suffer for it occasionally. I just wouldn't risk it personally.

Prolonged but slow rotting will give very different kinds of bacteria that fast warm rotting.

I have seen people have problems when they have freezers outside in the garage in winter. The freezers don't work well below certain temps and the mice go through freeze thaw cycles that may not even be noticed. They don't look or smell too bad though, so people feed them and occasionally have problems.

Yes snakes can get food poisoning. It is rare and you need the right pathogenic kinds of bacteria, but it is possible. And it would be more obvious in neonates that do not yet have a fully competent immune system.

Snakes in the wild probably do scavenge, and they probably suffer for it occasionally. I just wouldn't risk it personally.

hey what do i know. When i travel to brazil, c. america or mexico I drink lots of tequila to kill off montezumas revenge. I always thought these 'extra" bacteria will help aid digestion.

Well, I think you may have answered your question - your snakes are healthy, then eat bacteria-laden mice with no problem.

It is possible that the snakes were fed bacteria-laden mice and were kept in poor conditions from the previous owner, who place was later raided for drugs. Then the snakes may have been additionaly stressed by the move, all having an impact on their immune systems.

Actually, 3 vets independently have mentioned the practice of feeding frozen thawed as being potentially problematic. For those of us who have quality mice that are frozen properly, we have never had a problem.
-----
Mark

I've had adult kings in the past that developed something like this and most of them lost weight fast and died. These are the first kings that I obtained in awhile and I seem to be having a problem again, at least with one of them.

I have this happening also. It's my first baby king that was given to me by a friend. It did not have this bump when I first got it. I fed it heavy at first (2-3 pinks) every 4 days. I was amazed at how much food they could put away, but then after about 4 feeds it regurged. Figured I was feeding too heavy so I waited a week and gave 1 pink which it held down for 2 days and then regurged also. Decided to wait another week and try again and this time no regurge, great! but then I noticed the bump. It is soft and closer to the head so I knew it was not a meal in it's stomach. It has been a few weeks, I have been feeding 1 pink a week with no more regurge but the bump is still there. It looks, acts, drinks and feeds perfectly normal. Was gonna give the animal away to someone else but since I see that I am not the only one with this problem and there have been cases where it has gone away, I am gonna keep him and work this thing out. Thinking maybe the whole regurge thing may have sparked this, but from other post I see this has happened without regurging. Just thought I'd chime in.

Well, I can tell you that you will get ALL kinds of answers, most very helpful.