Reptile & Amphibian Forums

These are crevices that I will provide for a young mtn king. Fun to play around with this stuff.

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Mark

Using these radiant heat panels exclusively to heat objects that the snakes hide under. Fun stuff.

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Mark

That's looking pretty interesting. Got more pics? Details? Is that a homemade plastic box?

Pretty cool stuff Mark.

I learned early on that snakes like small places where they can cram themselves into. I have luck with relutant feeders by providing a "tight spot" . This seems to provide the security (ie..low stress) they need to feel secure to eat.

One example are w/c Lyre snakes. Most people who have tried their hand at this species will eventually give up and release the lyres. But what i do is put a cereal box or other box crammed full of cardboard. The Lyre (or any snake) will crawl in and stay there. At night i put a FT mouse at the outside of the container and by morning it is gone. VIOLA'!

I have never had a Lyre snake refuse food with this method.

>>I learned early on that snakes like small places where they can cram themselves into. I have luck with relutant feeders by providing a "tight spot" . This seems to provide the security (ie..low stress) they need to feel secure to eat.
>>
>>One example are w/c Lyre snakes. Most people who have tried their hand at this species will eventually give up and release the lyres. But what i do is put a cereal box or other box crammed full of cardboard. The Lyre (or any snake) will crawl in and stay there. At night i put a FT mouse at the outside of the container and by morning it is gone. VIOLA'!
>>
>>I have never had a Lyre snake refuse food with this method.

For sub adults/neonates;
I like using toilet papers rolls, paper towel rolls or wrapping paper rolls, just fold in the ends as needed.. I also use tissue boxes boxes both shapes with shredded newspaper but 8 out of 10 times they are in the rolls hide.

My larger kings like cereal boxes and rectangle tissue boxes..
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

You've got most of them to eat mice this way!?! Wow! You've gotta throw up a pic or email me exactly how you had the box & cardboard set up. Lyres are a snake I'm very interested in. Had a chance to get one two years ago, & ended up giving it to a friend cuz I didn't think I'd be successful getting it on mice. Lizards are just too much of a hassle.

reako45

Blue,
I used to keep lyres years ago. I agree with you. They cram themselves in the smallest of hides and prefer that.

I had w/c and CB. The larger fed on mice w/o any issue. The CB babies I had to scent, but even they came around quickly. I was keeping them in shoeboxes. When I finally gave them 1/2 inch PVC tubes to hide in, some were more prone to feeding on whatever I put in the tube, scented or otherwise.

My opinion of these snakes changed from my experiences. Neat snakes. I was bitten once by my adult male, quick nip, no symptoms. My female, not as large as the male, would eat anytime anywhere and could gobble down multiple large mice in minutes in spite of her little flat head. She would hold her head and neck up a bit and stare at the cage door with those eliptical pupils when I stood in front of it. All business she was.
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Mark

I picked up a giant Lyre one time on the road and it nailed me pretty good. I also had no symptoms.

It is weird with your luck on neonate lyres not eating. I have had much better luck with W/C neonates or young Lyres eating right off the bat in just a deli cup. They eat a bunch like the speckled king do. They just eat and eat and have slow growth...I wonder to myself if they are better suited lizard eaters because the mice seem to run right through fairly quick and then they want to eat again.

Now I wonder if people with greyband babies have tried this techique to get them to feed? Except for the occasional pair or two i have kept, I am not much of a greyband guy and never cared for them as much as other spp.

I've done basically the same thing with similar results for many reluctant feeders. Security, or lack of it, seems to be a common problem when critteres go off or refuse to feed.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I am totally lost as to what your trying to do. To me, it looks AWFUL. I hope I am wrong.

First, why do you want a snake to use a crack? Why do you think they use cracks? This is very important to understand.

Without knowing what you are attempting to do, looking at your pictures is scary.

If your attempting to attract a pyro to that little round crack to use heat, then you have overkill going for you, that heat emitter is suitable for a retic. Think about how much air gets dried out between that heat emitter an the actual area to be heated and about how much actual heat it takes to warm up that area, or part of that area.

Lets start at the begining. Is this for a pyro? If so, they please understand, pyros do not use cracks. OK, thats wrong, a very small percentage will use them for convience. That is, 99% of all pyros come from places without cracks. The small percentage that occur around suitable cracks, use them for very specific reasons and for a very short time.

As you may have seen, I have pics of pyros using cracks, and gilas, and torts, and blacktails, and diamondbacks, and ringnecks, and lyresnakes and much more. Each as its own specific reason to use them.

In most cases, there are two main reasons, So lets cover those a little bit.

The ground is too cold for tasks the snake needs to accomplish. In this case, they will come up and find a suitable base temp crack, crevice, hole, bark, etc, that is very consistant and has the right feel and humidity. Then they will move to the front to warm up a little and back to cool down a little. Snakes can and will regional heat, that is, they only warm up a section of their body. An example is, only warming up the bolus or the ovum/eggs. Or the head, or feet(for lizards) got pics showing all this.

This also happens when the ground gets too wet, that is, their main holes are soaked and they need to dry out. Rare around here. hahahahahahahahahaha

They normally use a specific crack, not any old crack. They use one that is proven. That is, it works and is safe. Safe means lots of things. It means safe from predators, but much more, its really means safe from dehydration, safe from overheating(whats wrong with your setup), safe from freezing. And it means its safe to get to and safe to leave.

So, in a cage, a crack is not about most of that. What is it for? If you want I can post some pics. Cheers

I would like to see some pictures is there a chance you could post please FR

hang on, if the post progresses in the right direction, I will. The problem is, I have so many pics.

Most of the time when I try and help, it turns into a arguement, instead of a converstion, in that case, I won't show pics.

The truth is, like all this, there is a context, and out of context, then it just gets more confusing and more confusing.

Just like the original post, theres a huge heat source, and a tiny spot to be heated. Plus the spot to be heated needs only a few degrees.

Can I made another dumb analogy? please, hahahahahahaha, that heat source(heat emitter, is like putting an engine from a 737 on a pipercub. No matter how you tweek that engine, it will not work on a pipercub.

In this case, the heat emitter causes more problems then it fixes. Cheers

>Just like the original post, theres a huge heat source, and a tiny spot to be heated. Plus the spot to be heated needs only a few degrees.<

>Its actually very simple. A choice between cool(65F to 75F)or even cooler, to about 100F surface temps, not air temps. Snakes could care less about air temps, they live on on in where they get their temps<

>Sir, that is so easy to provide. For instance, room temps are normally in the low seventies, so use room temps as the base, and add a SMALL hot area to elevate their temps as needed<

Frank this may be out of context and I'm not trying to trip you up. but surely you can understand how confusing this is to try to follow? On some days I CAN"T walk and chew bublegum! I sometimes forget to flush. I don't have to "play" dumb,I can be a natural. And on some days I CAN"T decide between choclate or Vanilla! Every spring I have to re-read the diections for putting line on the weed whacker!

thanks,

Bob.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Every spring I have to re-read the diections for putting line on the weed whacker!

LOL that was funny! Never happens to me.

Although i certainly disagree with the overall condescending tone of your post I have to agree with your opinion on this setup.. As you mentioned, that heat panel is not appropriate for a pyro or just about any king in my opinion.. And, although you will most likely disagree with me as well, I think a heat pad under small hide box would be a more suitable setup.

~ Mike Russo

I agree that the heatpad/hidebox setup works very well, both for the snake and for the keeper in terms of cost and power usage.

My setup is an experiment in a different direction. One thing I have found out, the RHP is very very efficient as long as it is on a controller and not too far away from the target objects being warmed.

I have a milksnake in a setup like this too, except I use more PVC and newspaper (and the soil) for hides and just one crevice to see what the snake does with it. I'll post pics and progress. I'll be honest too. If this setup is for the birds, I'll freely admit it. Time will tell. And I'll give free helicopter rides.

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Mark

>>I am totally lost as to what your trying to do. To me, it looks AWFUL. I hope I am wrong.
>>
>> First, why do you want a snake to use a crack? Why do you think they use cracks? This is very important to understand.
>>
>> Without knowing what you are attempting to do, looking at your pictures is scary.
>>
>> If your attempting to attract a pyro to that little round crack to use heat, then you have overkill going for you, that heat emitter is suitable for a retic. Think about how much air gets dried out between that heat emitter an the actual area to be heated and about how much actual heat it takes to warm up that area, or part of that area.
>>
>> Lets start at the begining. Is this for a pyro? If so, they please understand, pyros do not use cracks. OK, thats wrong, a very small percentage will use them for convience. That is, 99% of all pyros come from places without cracks. The small percentage that occur around suitable cracks, use them for very specific reasons and for a very short time.
>>
>> As you may have seen, I have pics of pyros using cracks, and gilas, and torts, and blacktails, and diamondbacks, and ringnecks, and lyresnakes and much more. Each as its own specific reason to use them.
>>
>> In most cases, there are two main reasons, So lets cover those a little bit.
>>
>> The ground is too cold for tasks the snake needs to accomplish. In this case, they will come up and find a suitable base temp crack, crevice, hole, bark, etc, that is very consistant and has the right feel and humidity. Then they will move to the front to warm up a little and back to cool down a little. Snakes can and will regional heat, that is, they only warm up a section of their body. An example is, only warming up the bolus or the ovum/eggs. Or the head, or feet(for lizards) got pics showing all this.
>>
>> This also happens when the ground gets too wet, that is, their main holes are soaked and they need to dry out. Rare around here. hahahahahahahahahaha
>>
>> They normally use a specific crack, not any old crack. They use one that is proven. That is, it works and is safe. Safe means lots of things. It means safe from predators, but much more, its really means safe from dehydration, safe from overheating(whats wrong with your setup), safe from freezing. And it means its safe to get to and safe to leave.
>>
>> So, in a cage, a crack is not about most of that. What is it for? If you want I can post some pics. Cheers

What is more natural in an unnatural environment Radiant Heat Panels or Under the belly heat?

What wattage is that RHP? Anything over 28watts is prolly overkill..

I prefer radiant heat over UTB any day of the week. If you are worried about lack of humidity then move the H20 bowl near/under the radiant heat panel.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

I hear what you are saying. I would love pics and any additional input.

I love the pics of the pyros in the rock cracks. So much so that I want to see it in captivity (yes, for me).

The heat panel is not as large compared to the cage as the picture implies, but you are correct, it is far larger than a baby pyro, meaning overkill. It heats the objects directly below in a manner as does the sun, not quite like a light bulb. Material below (soil, rocks, paper folds, animals) absorb the heat.

Substrate is soil. Snake can get cooler as it goes down. Hey this part works in my setup. Heater heats top "rock" the most, bottom rock the least. The snake can thermoregulate that way, or just go in the soil or move laterally under the myriad of objects in the cage (paper, PVC, etc).

The heat panel is only 28 watts, and on the controller it averges far less power draw than that, as this type of heater is very efficient at heating objects below as I have seen. The area under the rocks over the soil does not dry out (as fast) like when Flexwatt is under the cage. So actually, the snake under these objects has localized humidity and avoids dehydration. So far that is. Need more time to truly assess, as this experiment just started.
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Mark

FR

You give great insight into what snakes do in the wild, and it is MUCH appreciated on a forum where there are very few advanced field herpers. But I have seen a pyro in a crack before. What I havn't seen is how you keep your kings. You do still have a few don't you? I have tried about a million different things over the years to try and implement what I know snakes do in the wild. I am still trying new things.

What I would like to see is how you keep your kings. Its pretty easy to hate on other peoples set ups. EVERYONE on here has tried silly things, written dumb posts, and misinterpreted what their animals are trying to tell them. Just curious what you do so differently than all the people you critique.

Cheers

FR:

I doubt anyone here is going to criticize(flame) you concerning your methods. There might be disagreements, but that is to be expected and even a catalyst for intellectual debate.

I think everyone here has a great deal of respect for you and your experience.

However it is frustrating when you say there is a better way to do something, but don't reveal how to go about achieving it.

Anyways, I would be very grateful for any insight/tricks/methods that you have applied and had success with that many people aren't familiar with.

Thanks!
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

However it is frustrating when you say there is a better way to do something, but don't reveal how to go about achieving it.

Ahh but that is part of the learning experience Grasshopper. It is the way.

Id like to see FRs snake setups too.
I havent a problem with the pioneer thing, but Id love to see how you have your snakes setup. Heck I wanna see all your snake setups EVERYONES not just FR.
Lets start a post of everyones setups not just FRs either everyones.
Take care

I do not have any kingsnake or colubrid setups at this time. I do have a few snakes, not many. And yes, they breed and do well.

I kept kings for many years, Then moved on to pythons, then varanids. I also keep and have kept other reptiles as well.

Last year, I bred, kings, greenrats, turtles, torts, and several varanid species.

When I moved into varanids, I kept and bred them in snake cages, Now I keep snakes in varanid cages, hahahahahahaha.

Only recently, and because kings were given to me, have I returned to keeping a few kings. In fact, a friend would buy kings, raise them up, and ask me to breed them. So thats what I did and am doing. Althought, a few weeks back, I did purchase a Black king, and two alternas. So I guess I am hooked AGAIN, and will have to make some nice setups.

But how I keep them is not the point, NO matter how they are kept, we can still offer choices. And that is what I find odd with some folks here.

Many here are not keepers, but instead model builders or something, They only know how to follow instructions. You know, a recipe. Which is what I find odd. We were MORE advanced, thirty years ago.

For those who are having great success, good on you. But like today(newly posted problem), there are still so many here that are having REAL BASIC husbandry problems. Like a post above, my healthy kings died today and I kept them perfectly. The absolute truth is, healthy snakes(reptiles) do not die. Of course, they can be killed when healthy. But to just die?? that means, they WERE NOT, healthy or kept in good conditions. OR, they would not be dead. Sick snakes die, healthy snakes are murdered. And yes, us keepers can murder snakes, we can also cause them to become sick and die. But healthy snakes dying is something that should be questioned.

It appears to me that many here do not give a flying ground squirrel(get it, flying GROUND squirrel, hahahahahaha) about the snakes, but are specialists in following recipes. They ask about the recipes and if they follow it, then who cares about the snake. As the post above indicated. The truth and reality is, ITS NEVER ABOUT THE RECIPE(directions) ITS ALWAYS ABOUT THE SNAKE. The snake is the living creature with actual wants and needs, the recipe is suppose to support the living creature. Not tell the living creature what its suppose to do or want.

As in, if the snake does not follow the recipe, change the snake, not change the recipe. This bothers the crap out of me and is very disrepectful to the living creatures. The recipe is suppose to change to fit the snake, not the other way around.

So, all I am doing here is offering a window into what these snakes actually are. And offer for your consideration, that the snakes are the subject of our attention, NOT THE RECIPE.

That is what the novices should learn first. Not 84.2332677854500674F, in the summer, and 54.678048573764567483F in the winter.

In fact, the cages have nothing to do with this. These folks need to understand that the animal has needs and HAS ABILITIES. If you just allow the kings to be, low and behold, KINGS.

If supported they will function successfully with very little for the keeper to do. After all, they have been doing what they do, since long before man was a monkey(or came to earth)(or was put here by god)(pick your own god) And they have been doing what they do, VERY WELL, and all without us. So how did they do so well?

One primitive thought, I know of no where where snakes occur, where there is one temp in the summer,84F, and one temp in the winter, 55F. Everywhere they occur, has temps ABOVE and BELOW, what they utilize, and the snakes utilize the enviornment, to obtain the temps they need. As reptiles, THEY UTILIZE A RANGE OF TEMPS, not a single temp.

The answer to your questionThe truth is, you can allow or support a range in anything from a trashcan to a sweater box, to a snake cage. The type of cage will restrict how well you can support what the snakes need. But a range can be offered in any type of cage.

With kingsnakes, many here use cages that are out of context, that is, they are a picture from the surface of the ground up. Like a postcard or something. When the reality is, kingsnakes LIVE from the surface of the ground down. A thought, over the entire range of kings, at any time of year, or on any day of the year, or any time of the day, over 90% of all kings in their entire range will be UNDERGROUND.

Again, just silly thoughts. But sir, its about understanding the snakes first, then its very easy to deal with the cages.

U C, if I posted pics, those that are recipe followers, would simply mindlessly follow. Its much better to understand, then follow. Cheers

So yes, everyday here, there are people having problems that were conquered thirty years ago. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm for an old guy, that is very disappointing. Cheers

Thanks. And I do see why you are reluctant to post pics.

a question...

The deepest substrate I have ever used was about 10-12 inches of dirt. The female cal king I tried it with dug straight to the bottom were she made two body sized cavities and a connection between them that was exactly double the thickness of her body. I have always been curious about what snakes do underground. A picture you posted of a snake laying eggs under a piece of glass prompted me to wonder about the things we can't see.

How deep will they dig on their own?

It sounds like it's going to look good. I can't wait to see the final outcome. I just have one question: how are you planning on stabilizing the parts? My snake seems to find a way to demolish anything with mobile parts that I place in her enclosure.

Please post pics when you're finished!
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0.1 Banded California kingsnake - Zorro
1.0 Betta fish - Billy
0.0.3 White Cloud Fish
1.0 RES - Chopstick
0.1 Australian Shepherd - Jet
0.1 Domestic Shorthair Mix Cat - Pirate

Very good question.

On the active set I used a small amount of epoxy putty to hold the two together. That works, and the whole assy can be immersed for cleaning.

The other sets I haven't adhered them in case the idea does not work out as intended. Then each layer itself will be used as separate hides. They are weighty. A small mtn king cannot move them.
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Mark