Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
Click for ZooMed
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

??? about Corn Genetics

bigbearhook Feb 24, 2009 11:04 AM

I'm farely new to corns and have more knowledge about Ball pythons than Corns. I have a few questions about genetics.

1. I know Anery and Amel are recessive(both parents need the genes for it), but what other morphs are recessive?

2. Are there any "co-dominate" morphs in corns? IE pastels or mojaves in balls?

3. Are there any "super codoms"? IE super pastels or Leucistics in balls?

4. Are Okeetee considered co-dom? If you breed one to a normal will you get 50% Okeetee and 50% Normal?

Thanks for the info!!!

Replies (17)

nodaksnakelover Feb 24, 2009 12:11 PM

May I recommend you buy a book? The Cornsnake Morph Guide by Chuck Pritzel is available in many online outlets such as Zoo Book Sales. This is a very comprehensive guide to all the morphs and how they interact with each other plus giving you a great primer on genetics. Enjoy!

DonSoderberg Feb 24, 2009 12:18 PM

At this time, all the cornsnake mutations are recessive, with the exception of ULTRA that is codom with amel only, AND the new Tessera that (so far) appears to be codom with anything. This summer, we should know if there is a super form of Tessera. Tessera will be featured in the 2009 Morph Guide, but is not in the 2008 Guide.

Any non-mutant cornsnake morphs are just selectively bred versions of "normal" corns OR polygenetic versions of existing mutations.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

KJUN Feb 24, 2009 12:46 PM

I'm not correcting Don at all - I'm just adding that ultra is still a recessive trait so you don't get confused. It just happens to be allelic to amelanism, so it behaves with a codom with that allele. If you breed an ultra to anything other than an albino, you get normals.
KJ
-----
KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN.us
Snakemorphs.us

DonSoderberg Feb 24, 2009 12:56 PM

Thanks, KJ. My bad !
So excited that a mutation was codom with anything at all, forgot to mention it's recessive to anything other than amels.
South Mountain Reptiles

KJUN Feb 24, 2009 12:59 PM

LOL. I don't think you mispoke at all, Don. It was a wonderful answer. I just knew I have presonally confused people before with ultra explainations, so I didn't want someone else to misread it from you. I've done my fair share of confusing enough people already - that is my territory and you can't have it!
-----
KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN.us
Snakemorphs.us

Darin Chappell Feb 24, 2009 01:48 PM

BY the by...if I understand it correctly, motley and stripe are also co-allelic and thereby co-dominant ONLY with each other.

Of course it's been awhile, so someone please correct me, if I have misstated myself!
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

KJUN Feb 24, 2009 03:05 PM

>>BY the by...if I understand it correctly, motley and stripe are also co-allelic and thereby co-dominant ONLY with each other.
>>
>>Of course it's been awhile, so someone please correct me, if I have misstated myself!

Striped and motley are allelic (and recessive to the normal pattern), but I would NOT use the word codominant since the homozygous motley looks pretty much indistinguishable from the hertozygous motley. An Ultra (UU), ultramel (UA), and amelanistic (AA) all look different - at least as babies. Yes, the UU and UA can look the same as adults, but they have different phenotypes as babies. On the other hand, a motley and a motley het stripe look pretty much the same thing. There is a weak tendance for motleys het stripe to have a striped-motley phenotype, but this doesn't really hold true since not all striped-motleys are het stripe and not even most moptleys het striped are striped-motleys. It may be nothing more than a correlation and not a causation.

Caramel is occasionally called a codominant since MANY (not all) snakes HET caramel are extremely yellow in coloration for a "normal." Again, if it is codominant, then it is a very weak one at that. The only true, obvious, codominant seems to be the Tessera (which will be confirmed this season - and tested to see if it is codominant or dominant).
KJ
-----
KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN.us
Snakemorphs.us

boxienuts Feb 24, 2009 06:39 PM

Striped and motley are allelic (and recessive to the normal pattern), but I would NOT use the word codominant since the homozygous motley looks pretty much indistinguishable from the hertozygous motley. An Ultra (UU), ultramel (UA), and amelanistic (AA) all look different - at least as babies. Yes, the UU and UA can look the same as adults, but they have different phenotypes as babies. On the other hand, a motley and a motley het stripe look pretty much the same thing. There is a weak tendance for motleys het stripe to have a striped-motley phenotype, but this doesn't really hold true since not all striped-motleys are het stripe and not even most moptleys het striped are striped-motleys. It may be nothing more than a correlation and not a causation.

Caramel is occasionally called a codominant since MANY (not all) snakes HET caramel are extremely yellow in coloration for a "normal." Again, if it is codominant, then it is a very weak one at that. The only true, obvious, codominant seems to be the Tessera (which will be confirmed this season - and tested to see if it is codominant or dominant).
KJ
----
You have some good points KJ. When talking about variations on dominance I think it is important to realize that we are just trying to categorize what effects of pigment,pattern, ect. we are visually seeing and define by phenotype untill we figure out exactly what is going on at a genomic sequence level and biochemical pathways. We always want to put things in a group of either on or off or somewhere exactly in the middle, and while some genes are that simple and do behave that way for the most part, most do not. I like to think of dominance relationships more like a twelve inch ruler where 0 would be recessive in the purest sense and 12 would be dominant, and 6 would be codominant by definition and the inbetweeners could be incomplete dominance. Since the consensus is that stripe and motley are both alleles at the same "relative" loci, but that stripe is recessive to motley in relation to each other, so perhaps if you put homozygous stripe at 0 and homozygous motley at 12 on the ruler maybe one copy motley combined with one copy stripe ends up somewhere around say 9, but not always exactly at nine but rather it's effects have a range of say 7-11. So maybe while carmel is "recessive" to wild type maybe it lands at 1 with a smaller range of 0.5-1.5. so you see a little carmel trait showing thru in a het carmel. Also with the stripe gene you also get some color change with the pattern change which could be the result of a group of gene mutations that mostly transfer togather, or that the group of effects on biochemical pathways transfer togather resulting from a single change in a single gene. Untill we spend the time and money to map it all out its mostly a guess, with a lot of gray, even then.
-----
Jeff Benfer
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

Darin Chappell Feb 25, 2009 10:33 AM

I don't necessarily disagree, I was simply referring to the relationship that the motley and stripe genes had to one another, being allelic. That's all.

Thanks for your added thoughts!
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

DonSoderberg Feb 25, 2009 10:46 AM

Darin:

That's information the originator of this thread needs to know, since the motley/stripe allelic relationship is unique in the hobby at this time. I should have mentioned that one. Thanx.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

Paul Hollander Feb 25, 2009 07:09 PM

Boxienuts' ruler analogy is a good one.

I think it is worth mentioning that all genotypes have a range of phenotypes. It is how much the ranges overlap that determines the best answer to the dominant/recessive vs. codominant/codominant relationship between two alleles. Yet the position of an individual animal in the range may give a more accurate classification of that particular animal's genotype.

For example, one homozygous type has a range of 0-3, the other homozygous type has a range of 8-12, and the heterozygous type has a range of 5-11. Animals with a phenotype range of 5-6 are almost certainly heterozygous. But the ranges fit the dominant/recessive model best.

The atypical individuals spark these threads.

Paul Hollander

bigbearhook Feb 24, 2009 05:06 PM

So let me see if I get this? Okeetee, Miami, etc are just normal variations that are genetic? Do you get something totally different if you breed an Okeetee to a Miami? Just a thought.

My next question is
How is it that you have so many 3 or more visual recessives in one animal(such as a butter motley) and it price is so low? It must be difficult to get one of those(statistically speaking)! If someone made an Albino Clown Pied Ball Python, it would probably cost $20,000. How is it so easy to breed so many recessive morphs with Corns?

KJUN Feb 24, 2009 06:44 PM

>>So let me see if I get this? Okeetee, Miami, etc are just normal variations that are genetic? Do you get something totally different if you breed an Okeetee to a Miami? Just a thought.

They are just natural variations. Breed those together and you just ge ta "tweener" looking normal. nothing else, really.

>>How is it that you have so many 3 or more visual recessives in one animal(such as a butter motley) and it price is so low? It must be difficult to get one of those(statistically speaking)! If someone made an Albino Clown Pied Ball Python, it would probably cost $20,000. How is it so easy to breed so many recessive morphs with Corns?

Well, there are a couple of reasons - mainly corn people are dumb enough to pay that much money for a snake....lol. Seriously, it just has to do with fecundity. You can keep 1.3 cornsnakes in the same space that you keep 1.1 ball pythons - and the corns will breed in under 2 years and cost less to feed, etc. At to years (if you push them), you can get two clutches from EACH female meaning 25 eggs per female easy. That's 75 eggs from that group. With 3 hets (1 out of 64), you should hit one every year. Ignore the adults. Once you get a pair (say it takes 2 years "statistically" to get a pair, you can breed the triple homozygous together after two years and produce 25 triple visuals (not counting the adults). In other words, you can be producing hundreds of them in 7 years MAX starting with just the space for 1.1 ball pythons.......who might not make make a pair of them at all in those 7 years....lol.

Numbers are rought estimates for FUN only. Stats really don't work that way.
KJ
-----
KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN.us
Snakemorphs.us

boxienuts Feb 24, 2009 06:55 PM

Lol KJ we both posted at the same time, pretty much the same answer, although i didn't come out and see it, I agree it does seem a little crazy to pay $20K for a snake, although it's all relative, but hey I paid that for my truck and the snake is probably.......actually most definately a better investment.lol
-----
Jeff Benfer
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

KJUN Feb 24, 2009 07:41 PM

>>Lol KJ we both posted at the same time, pretty much the same answer, although i didn't come out and see it, I agree it does seem a little crazy to pay $20K for a snake, although it's all relative, but hey I paid that for my truck and the snake is probably.......actually most definately a better investment.lol

Sounds like you bought a Ford....lol.

BTW, I liked your genetics post Re:codoms a lot.
KJ
-----
KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN.us
Snakemorphs.us

boxienuts Feb 25, 2009 08:16 AM

Ford- hehe- Actually it's a Nissan Frontier 4x4, which I think is a pretty good value, good gas milage, ect. but I do take a lot of razzing from my farmer Chevy driving uncles and the small town locals, anyway I had a Chevy once, beautiful truck- but the only problem was the darn thing was always in the shop.
-----
Jeff Benfer
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

boxienuts Feb 24, 2009 06:48 PM

My next question is
How is it that you have so many 3 or more visual recessives in one animal(such as a butter motley) and it price is so low? It must be difficult to get one of those(statistically speaking)! If someone made an Albino Clown Pied Ball Python, it would probably cost $20,000. How is it so easy to breed so many recessive morphs with Corns?

I can't answer your first questions but I can your last. It is exactly the same difficulty to make a butter stripe as an albino clown pied, they are both triple homozygous recessives. If you breed triple het to triple het you have a 1/64 chance of hitting the odds. Of course that is not the only way to get from point A to point B, but either way is time and work. The difference between the price of a triple corn and triple ball is simply "supply and demand", and time. A good friend put it very eloquently to me "a snake is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it". and that is also relative to time.
-----
Jeff Benfer
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

Site Tools