Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As a kid, I accompanied my family to live in a very rural part of northern Arkansas. We lived on 80 acres with a 3 acre pond in the front yard and forest in the back. These two years are very much responsible for my admiration and obsession with snakes. I spent the majority of that two years either fishing or looking for snakes, and I rarely ever came up empty at either effort. My finds included Coppers, Moccasins, Speckled Kings, Ring Necks, Smooth greens, Corns and the ever abundant glossy black giants I came to adore.

The Indigos were quite common and always had an exceptionally pleasant demeanor. I was bitten only once, while trying to rescue one whose back was broken by a shovel in a very unfortunate and misguided capture attempt by an older sibling.

4 to 6 footers were rather common, and I did catch a couple of 6 to 8 footers, but the one I remember most vividly, was much larger than all the rest. I'm not here to incite any contentious claims of size since this was some 25 odd years ago and we didn't measure it, but as our family of 9 drove down the dirt driveway in our Suburban, Dad suddenly stopped short to avoid running over a monster Indigo that was literally laying ALL the way across the road. Suffice it to say that this individual was much larger than average and I would dare say, larger than reports I've read of them growing to a maximum of eight feet. It was truly an experience and I always hoped (in vain) that we'd cross paths again.

The reason I brought this up, in addition to sharing some great memories, is in hopes that some of you here may have had similar experiences. I've done an ample amount of looking on-line for specimens like those I have described, but generally come up "short". The Indigos that we had there, had very distinctive bright pink and black mottled bellies. Most of the pictures I see are of Indigos with rather black bellies. I know there are at least a couple of different subspecies,(Eastern and Texas) and wondered which these ones might belong to.

Additionally, I would love any pictures that you all might want to post or direct me to. Especially ones that show off those belly scales I remember so well. If any of you have documented individuals reaching over 8 feet, that would be very interesting to me also. I know they must be out there.

Thanks all, for reading my post, and I wish you all happy herping!

Jamison

I've never heard of wild indigos in Arkansas. Coachwhips have pink bellies sometimes and are large black snakes, might that be what you saw?

Dear Jamison, I had the same thought as Mike, I am thinking a big Coachwhip, which vary a lot in color depending on region, and the description of the ventral sounds coachwhip...and Indigos and Coachwhips both get long and are dark, fast and impressive, and often seen during the day foraging.

Arkansas is generally regarded outside historical Indigo range, of either the Eastern or Texas species. Masticophis f. testaceus does occur in Arkansas, and according to Conant/Collins,'98, may reach a record size of 102"(8.5 ft). The same reference says in NW Ark. coachwhips may be black with some reddish near the tail?...

Also, I remember things from my own childhood, including Pacific gopher snakes that I remember as being huge, longer than me... but I was short and my memory is large! Maybe you can visit your old stomping grounds and get a photo, we would go crazy to identify it. Fun story, you "painted the scene" well. Vic H.

Thank you so much guys. I've always been curious if these snakes were unique in some way. That is really what I am trying to identify here. I'd really say that these snakes are much more heavy-bodied and extremely more relaxed than any coachwhip I've come across. Additionally, the Coachwhip is one species I never came across while I was there. Being that I lived in a fairly back-woods type place, I wondered if perhaps this could possibly be a different subspecies of Indigo or Cribo. The belly scales are VERY pink, but the animals were solid black everywhere else. They were truly massive and very beautiful. I would LOVE nothing more than to get back out there and get photo documentation. It's just a really hard trip to make from Salt Lake City. If anyone lives a lot closer than me, and I trusted that they wouldn't be interested in collecting anything more than photos, I'd be happy to give EXACT coordinates to where these things can be found.

Dear Jamer,

here is a chance to make herpetological history...a signifcant range extension or better! Do it and let us know what you find. Your prior description of them being gentle did sound inconsistent with many of the coachwhips I have found, which have peppery personalities...

I hope you can find them and photodocument and solve the mystery, that would be exciting indeed. good luck, Vic

Vic,
Is there truly anything "better" than making herpetological history? "Drymarchon jamisoni" does have a really nice, if slightly pretentious, ring to it. These "Indigos" (I hate that I don't know what they are now) were seriously right up there in demeanor with the Speckled Kings except that they didn't musk. They were puppy dogs unless seriously provoked. I watched an older neighbor kid intentionally try to get bit by a 5 footer to prove that they were harmless. He finally managed it, but only after doing things that would make an asian side-show snake act look harmless.

I'd find them just about anywhere day or night. My older brother was suspended during our first week in our new school for putting one in a paper bag and "accidentally" letting it escape during a class. I once was walking by a 6" or 8" PVC drainage pipe of some sort on our property and noticed a black tail sticking out about 4 inches. I'm sure it lasted no more than a few seconds, but as I pulled it out, I wondered if I was ever going to get to the end of that snake. It was the second largest one I found, and had an extremely distended belly(practically the diameter of the pipe) after having consumed a very large meal. That snake couldn't have cared less about being drug out of that pipe.

I'm a bit of a city-slicker now, but it's always been a goal to get back to these old stomping grounds one day. I can already imagine the "crack-pot" conversation I'll be having with the current owners of that property now. It's not really the destination vacation my wife and small kids will look forward to, but even with the ticks and chiggers, these days were the absolute pinnacle of my childhood memories.

Thanks again all, for listening to me run on once again. I'm still very curious to hear about any of your experiences if you're willing to share. Do take care!

Jamison

I am less than 200 miles away from there. I'll go as soon as it warms up. Now like we say here in Missouri,..."show me". e-mail me the location and I'm there. Your talking about my neck of the woods now buddy!

So I visited the "Snakes of Arkansas" web page and see nothing at all that looks like the "Indigos" I saw regularly. I've never claimed to be an official herpetologist, but I'd be very surprised if they weren't an Indigo/Cribo of some sort. This is at the very least an extension of habitat for Drymarchon if not an undocumented species for the state. (Although I acknowledge one could argue, without proof, that it's just as likely a common species misidentified by my novice self)

I do have a $400 Delta Voucher that expires soon that I thought I might not use. Perhaps I will figure out a way to take a trip on back to the Ozarks with a snake hook, a camera, a tape measurer and a note book....Oh, and bug spray!

I really wish this wasn't 26 years later though. I found our old house on the sattellight feature of Google maps, and it looks like some of the surrounding forested areas have been turned into farmland. There's even a new road through it now. I would hate to get back there and not be able to have the same luck herp hunting that I did as a kid.

So here's the golden question. Say I do make it back and do find what I'm looking for. Are they still federally protected even if they look different than Eastern Indigos which aren't "supposed to occur in the state of Arkansas anyway? Could a person potentially collect one or two for ongoing documentation, observation, classification purposes? I am not one who believes in collecting wild snakes to keep as pets, (my wife doesn't believe in keeping ANY snakes as pets)but would hate to miss a chance to "prove" what may be deemed by some as a rather significant finding and to offer these snakes, if needed, further state or federal regulatory protection.

I would really appreciate your thoughts on the topic.

Jamison

Good luck to you and I enjoyed reading this thread. However, the chances of these snakes having been indigos is extremely unlikely. The location is 100's of miles outside of their range and indigos are very large, diurnal snakes. It is almost inconceivable that this is what you saw; you would not have been the only one to find them and it is very unlikely that you found a relict population. My conclusion is that you are yanking our chains (in a good-humored way). I guess it is remotely possible that some were released way out of their known range. They were not protected back then and were often used in traveling carnivals and circuses.
That being said, I would love to be proven wrong!

Gentlemen,
Please don't think for one second that I don't know how crazy it sounds. I don't have the time to play practical jokes on a group of people I greatly admire and wouldn't risk alienating myself from them permanently. I assure you that I am far from the only person to have seen the snakes. I know of no logical reason for their presence in northern AR, or the lack of any public record of them, but can't negate what I've seen multiple times. The behemoth(sp) snakes are every bit as real to me as the Alligator Snappers, Five-Lined Skinks, and Copperheads that I would come across.

I would love nothing more than to prove you wrong. However, let it be known that I fully understand the ridicule I will face if I return with pictures of a Rat Snake, but I would still come back regardless, because I owe you that much for your efforts in responding to me. If I become the laughing stock, so be it. It's worth it to me to put my mind at ease and figure out definitively what they are. Even if I take into account that I might be blessed with an active imagination, I can't reason around the fact that there were eight other people in that Suburban with me when Dad stopped to move that monster out of the road.

Now that I've dug myself in this deep, I feel obliged to make sure we all get as much mileage out of the experience as possible. Any ideas, friendly wagers or suggestions? I haven't had time to think about it, but as an example, in the event that I'm right, I say all you "nay-sayers" should be perpetually at the bottom of the list to purchase a captive bred "Drymarchon jamisoni" which, coincidentally, would be printed under a new lower-back tatto of a thread snake if I'm wrong. Ok, those might be bad ideas, but I'd hope we could have fun with it either way.

You guys are awesome and please do understand that I truly do admire what you do. I would never dream of intentionally wasting your time or making a mockery out of your passion. My affinity for snakes is nothing short of a disease, though my true obsession is within the boundaries of the venomous variety. Unfortunately, I must live vicariously through the likes of you as my wonderful wife is defiantly averse to ever accepting the notion of having a snake in the house.

That said, I'd appreciate any helpful tips on making an Ozark herping adventure a success. I have a feeling I'm getting in WAY over my head. I can't guarantee that I'll even be able to make the trip, but if I do, I'd love to have one of you Drymarchon experts with me? I have an idea that it would be a ton of fun regardless of the end results.

Jamison

If they are indigos I would say they are not protected (yet)since they aren't "supposed" to be there. I would collect one for identification, but that's just me. Pictures and GPS data of the area would be great as well.

Unless it keyed out to be a new species or subspecies I would be inclined to believe they were released or escaped from captivity. However you seemed to have seen more than could likely be explained by that, so it is curious to say the least. Good luck and let us know what you find.

Well, the ivory-billed woodpecker was possibly re-dicovered in eastern Arkansas in 2005, but the jury is still out as to whether it was an authentic siting. However, ivory-bills were historically found in east Arkansas. Indigos were not; their range is not even close. In my opinion, if there truly is a population of indigos in N. Arkansas, it would be a remarkable natural history discovery. Still, I cannot believe it. If for no other reason, museums would have road-killed specimens. New discoveries of snakes are usually now limited to small, burrowing species in the remaining wild parts of the world. Not northern Arkansas, even 30 years ago.

Guys, if this story is true and I have no reason to think it's not, they were just big Black Ratsnakes. The darkest ones come from that region and usually have red ventrally. Big, powerful solid black snakes and very common in that area. No indigos ever inhabited the Ozarks. Ever.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer

Agreed, Terry. I have seen some monster obsoleta in the Missouri Ozarks back in the 80's. Heck, I would be happy just to see an Eastern indigo in Florida, or a black pine in Mississippi!

I have personaly seen over fifty Easterns in the field in twenty years here in central Florida, and I can tell you that the absolute best chance to encounter them in the wild (most likely males) is in late November between 8:AM and 12PM on sunny but cool days. hope this helps. JB BTW... Indigos and Coachwhips are cousins in the "Longtailed" snake family along with the Racers, for all of those that did not know.

Wow Terry, that's broad brush stroke to say they never were in Arkansas. Even if remotely possible, they may well have ranged far more north than they do today, that being said, maybe perhaps easterns and Texans may have shared a bit of range a great long time ago. fact is, we don't really know. I am not saying they do, but I am definitely not saying they never did. Just my .02 and worth about that much! Dude,Look for them, photo them, GPS them, but leave them there if it does end up being so. If they were there and are there, they belong there, there is a reason they are protected elsewhere. I also believe what you saw were large rats, 30 years can make a mountain out of a mole hill, but go to set your mind at ease, and hope you know most of the people here won't hold you to a tramp stamp, but will engage you in some more locker room chiding. I hope you find whatever it is you are looking for!

-----
Todd Hughes

I live in Northern Arkansas. I have never seen hide nor hair of any indigo here besides the one in the cage next to me. How old were you when you last saw these snakes? Is it possible your memory has made a racer grow to indigo size? Please don't be insulted by the question. I can remember a rough green snake that I swear was 5 feet long and as big as around as a quarter. Tell me where, I may be close enough to check it out for ya.

Later,
Jason

Jamison,

I have a little different take on what you may have seen back in Arkansas years ago. I am certain it was not Indigo Snakes. If you had only seen one of them I perhaps would not rule out an escaped pet (Yes people kept them as pets back in those days). But you indicated that you had seen a number of them.

As someone else mentioned they could have been Black Ratsnakes, as they do occur across Arkansas.

But my first thought as I read your post was Mudsnakes. The Western Mudsnake (Farancia abacura reinwardtii) occurs across southern Arkansas and up into the northeastern part of Arkansas. They are black and have a bright pink/red and black belly. They generally do not get to be but 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 ft in length but the record size is just shy of 7 ft. And considering that something like 26 years has passed since you saw them as a child, it is possible that you remembeer them as being slightly larger than they actually were.

The link below is to a page with seveeral photographs of the Western Mudsnake. Check it out and see what you think. If they were not Mudsnakes, THEN I would have to agree with Terry vandeventer that they were most likely Black Ratsnakes.
Western Mudsnake

-----
Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

you got it, gerald. the tipoff is the docile behavior, which is unheard of in my experience concerning racers, coachwhips or black or western ratsnakes.

That does seem like a very good candidate. A large specimen could easily be mistaken for an Indigo.

Jeremy

I sort of doubt they are mudsnakes. Mudsnakes, in my experience at least, are purely lowland swamp animals. I have never seen one stretched out across a road, except maybe after a heavy rainstorm in a lowland area. I have seined them from a swamp when fish-sampling. Your are right about their behavior; they just do not bite. Wish he had some pix!

almost every mud snake i've been lucky enough to find has been on a road. also, the man said there was a pond in front of his house.

My fellow snake afficianados,
It is with deep regret that I am compelled to acknowledge that after exhaustive research, I must concede that Drymarchon jamisoni is but a pipe dream. As promised, I am here to assume ownership of my poor judgment in creating a stir around what I must now admit can be nothing more than a moderately unique variation of a commonly occuring species, and to accept, welcome and even invite any criticism, hazing or berating that you feel inclined to hurl my way. I do apologize for consuming any of your time or energy with what I'd hoped might be a welcome discovery.

All of your suggestions, ideas and arguments were duly noted and researched to the best of my ability. I have you to thank for leading me in a direction that allowed me to solve the "mystery. I was able to more-or-less immediately discount the possibility that these snakes were Coachwhips, Mud Snakes, or Racers. Originally, I'd also placed very little hope on the Western or Black Rat Snakes due to conflicting details I'd read on-line. However, I must now admit they are extremely likely, if not absolutely the critters responsible for my "fantasy".

MY Miserable Attempt at an Excuse
A.K.A. "Mountains out of Molehills"

Black Rat Snakes are described to generally reach 72", which by personal accounts, is a fairly substantial underestimation. During my research I have tracked down 2 others herp enthusiasts that also claim to have seen examples of Black Rats pushing the 9 foot mark. It is said (and photographic evidence suggests) that they generally have black and white or cream colored ventral scales, while the belly scales of the specimens I caught were black and as pink as one could imagine. Additionally all reports indicate a very obvious white chin as well as substantially lighter coloration laterally toward the belly scales, which was much more understated on the examples of my youth. One other primary reason I assumed I was looking at something other than a Rat Snake, was that the neonates have an incredibley unique color pattern, that in 2 years, I never witnessed. I can only imagine that perhaps the abundant population of Speckled Kings kept the numbers of smaller Rats in check to a point that I literally never saw one, which is unfortunate, as that would have been such an obvious tell. Lastly, and this one I still lack an answer for, is the subdued temperament. I can't explain it, so I won't even try. I'll just chalk it up to luck I guess.

The Conclusion

Despite what I thought was sound evidence, I have to face the reality that these snakes were simply a moderate example of regional color variation. As I read reports of the Black Rat's affinity for both swimming and climbing, I could hardly ignore the coincidence. Though the color is "off", the pattern of the ventral scales is spot-on as to what I remember. Though it would have been nice and extremely exciting to make a new discovery, I am comforted that my misidentification has in no way diminished my respect and admiration for these awesome creatures. In my eyes they are still unique, interesting and fantastic.

I do not regret coming here and posing the questions I did, since the experience has been educational, exciting and enlightening, at least for me. The I-told-you-so's are certain to commence and that is certainly warranted. If I'd had the luxury of having this experience in recent times, my posts would certainly have been accompained by photos, and the conclusion would have come much sooner. Despite my conviction that these are Black Rats, there is at least one person who plans to make a trip out to my old stomping grounds anyway to see what he can dig up and to document any findings regardless of how unique they are. I will certainly encourage him to come here and post pictures of what he finds so that I can give you all at least that bit of closure.

I want to thank you all again for your time and for your replies. You are an excellent resource and one that I am very grateful to have at my disposal, though I will think twice before sending you on any subsequent wild snake chases. I value your knowledge and experience and hope to run into you all from time to time.

Happy herping!

Jamison

very gracious. i think we've all enjoyed the thread. did i understand you to say these snakes climbed? if they did, that's a horse of a different color and i hereby withdraw my nomination of farancia.

I wish I's seen mud snakes. They are as beautiful as they are poor choices for pets, but still one of my favorite native colubrids.

Jamer, don't be too hard on yourself, this thread stimulated a fair amount of interest. I am now in the black rat camp, because of your story about the big one in the pipe, with a big food bolus in it, that says black rat to me, as I rarely see Drys with big bulges from feeding. And no matter what they actually were, a big black rat is an impressive animal. Terry Van Deventer has a lot of credibility in my book and he has scoured the South. You really should go back there and look around, it is obvious the place holds fond memories for you. Arkansas Jason would be a good guy to have recon your old stomping grounds, and perhaps document the pink ventered black rats! Vic H.

I concur. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread. It made me reflect on the first snakes I saw in the wild as a kid many years ago. Those images are hard-wired into the "pleasure center" of my brain. Your posts brought back some damn good memories for me.
Take care.

I agree with the others, no problem and I enjoyed the thread. The first snake I ever caught was a black ratsnake when I was about 5 years old. I remember it being long enough to drape around my neck and drag the ground on both ends, but that might be due to my mother's recollection of what she saw when I walked into the house with it! She was asleep on the couch and when I woke her to show her what I found she screamed so loud the neighbors came running to see what happened.

This was in Ohio, but the snake was a docile as could be, which is the reason I'm crazy about snakes to this day. If it bit me or even tried I might have ended up with a different perspective.

Now I want to see a giant mud snake...

Just follow the trail of giant Sirens. I spent the better part of an hour trying to track down pictures I'd seen a couple of years ago of a "larger" (4 feet or so) Mud Snake that was placed in a tree for a photo opp. I got a kick out of it and thought you guys might as well. Alas, I found the thread, but the photos have been removed.

Thanks for all the kind words, fellas! I enjoyed recounting the experiences and hoped that you might at least find it all mildly entertaining. My "google image search" of a serpentine tramp stamp also ended fruitlessly and directed me to several blocked sites by my employer. I'm sure they'll buy that it was all in the name of science.

Enjoy your weekend!

Jamison

Jamison,

Enjoyed the discussion. Glad we were able to help you make a decision on what it was that you had observed way back then. I had not caught the bit about them climbing in treets, but now that I have I withdraw my suggestion of a mud snake and will join the crowd on the Black Ratsnake ticket.

Incidently, the few mud snakes that I have seen in the wild were indeed on roads and never far from some source of standing water such as a pond, drainage ditch, etc.
-----
Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

Any populations of pine snakes found in Arkansas? 9 ft would not be out of the relm of possibility. I just think it may be out of there range?