Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In a major reversal of a trend started by the Animal Rights Movement 9 years ago to BAN many reptiles at the State level USARK has introduced their model legislation in North Carolina. If passed Senate Bill 307 (S307) will require caging standards, safety protocols, escape prevention and registration for venomous, large constrictors and crocodilians; but will allow individuals to maintain their right to work with these animals into perpetuity. This is a truly historic and precedent setting event. The Herp Community has never actually done anything for themselves before. That has now all changed. USARK is actively working to secure our collective futures at the local, state and national levels. Virginia wants to introduce similar legislation in the 2010 legislative session. The Herp Community, through USARK has taken it's destiny in it's own hands. No longer will we stand idly by and watch our rights disappear. Remember this day! We are making history and securing our own futures. Thank you all of you for your support. Together we will accomplish great things for our community!! More details and bill text will be available soon in an USARK Alert. Stay tuned. And thank you for standing up for yourselves with USARK on this historic day.

Andrew Wyatt
President USARK

Folks, this is a HUGE victory for the herp community. Until now we have always been thought of as a group that created problems concerning the keeping of exotic and sometimes dangerous wildlife. Many incidents and accidents have been used as a basis to enact legislation to prohibit or restrictively regulate the keeping of the creatures we all have an abiding love for. Now for the first time we are thought of as a solution as opposed to creating a potential problem. CONGRATS ANDREW ON A JOB WELL DONE!! Btween PIJAC'S excellent record of protecting the entire Pet Industry and USARK working to protect the ReptileNation we all have reason to hope for better day's ahead. I urge everyone to support these organizations as they represent our ONLY line of defense. USARK has taken, in a very short time, a leadership role in defending our Industry exclusively on a grass roots level. I am actually shocked that we have come this far in so short of time. At our meeting in Chicago, less than one year ago, the concept of USARK took root and is now flourishing to the benefit of us all. Again a job well done....THANK YOU
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Andrew & Tom,
I've been meaning to call both of you to talk privately about this NC Bill. Since it's already out in the great wide open let me express some of my feelings, in a polite & concerned way.

If I'm not mistaken this Bill came about from some sort of ban or tougher restrictions being sought by the NC legislature last year or a few years ago. It was viewed by some as a sort of compromise.

Before I go any further let me say that I can't disagree with someone & still love 'em to death. They don't become my enemy because of it. I mean, heck, I've been married to the same woman for 18yrs. I'm also a "less governement, more freedom" type of person.

I'm a NC resident and this Bill will affect me. To be perfectly honest, without being hateful or rude, I felt like we were sold out when I first heard of the compromise. I'm not stating that we were sold out, I'm just saying that I personally had/have a thought that we might've been. Now, I realize that I wasn't in on the discussions of this Bill and I don't know how close the other measure was to passing, how much support it had. I'm a fair man and I try to keep an open mind. That's why I wanted to talk to you personally about it, but health & other things have kept me from being able to.

I'd like to see the whole Bill, to see how the regulators are going to get paid, what kind of fees we're going to have to pay, etc...

I'm all for self-policing, but against government intervention/involvement. Ridiculous, far-reaching, proposals is how the extremists get things within their grip. We all know that both of the Bill proposals in Congress now will not pass as they're written - there will be a compromise. The extremists will then get their grubby ol' hands on our reptiles & slowly but surely squeeze 'em out, one by one. Can we say "welfare?" Can we say "taxes?" Etc, etc...

I'd much rather see USARK do something like a Member Drive with affordable membership fees and certain rules, standards, inspections be part of the membership commitment. Have certified volunteers in districts that are willing to do safety inspections for the cost of their gas (I'll volunteer) or something along those lines. To me, that beats the heck out of going through the government and establishing laws.

I'm sure that going through the government is much easier than trying to get the nation organized & willing to cooperate. We're going to have the same occassional escape or attack by non-complying keepers either way.

Now, if the govenrment would allow USARK to police the regulations in this NC Bill instead of it being in the hands of government, that would take some of the sting out of it. As far as I'm concerned.

Please don't misunderstand me. I deeply respect and appreciate all the hard work that ya'll have done. This should not be misconstrued as a bashing, hopefully it's more like constructive criticism. I care. I'm a poor man stuck in no-man's land with very little ways to get the good word out about the reptiles I keep (large constrictors and a few monitors). I do educational shows at local schools and I'm working on getting an article to dispel a lot of the myths portrayed in Rodda's study(?) and map as well as the media's myths.

I strongly believe that our real hope in this fight, which won't end even if the two Federal Bill proposals die, is in the minds of public opinion. We've got to get resposible keepers on camera, TV shows, talk shows, etc... However, this is only one part of many parts of the battle.

Thank you for taking the time to listen to me on this. I surely hope I haven't offended anyone.

Have a good one!
Michael Sanders
(HH)
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

"Before I go any further let me say that I can disagree with someone & still love 'em to death.

Sorry!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Hi Mike, I'm going to let Andrew address this as I had no imput on this bill. Shoot, I even aggree with you in point, BUT, if some regulation is not in place at a state level I can assure you sooner or later a bill will pass that will ban or regulate to the point of noncompliance. Therein lies the danger. None of us like regulation. Shoot everyone knows how I feel about it, and it even got me in serious trouble with the law. I think it's far better to be regulated than banned and make NO mistake a ban is likely without regulation sooner or later. The single biggest victory here is NOT the bill but the fact it was promulgated and introduced by the herp community. In my lifetime this has never happened before and I remember when the wheel was invented..As I said I agree with most of what you said but think about HOW the bill was introduced instead of the fact of having to deal with another law we didn't want in the first place. Wishing you all the best Mike.....TC
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Hillbilly- the fact is that this has been going on for 4 years in NC. If you had no input it is because you chose to stay in the shadows. Of course, ideally, no regulation would be best for us. But the reality is that if we hadn't fought tooth and nail we would be sitting here with a total BAN on these animals... like WA, NY and IA. Ask Al B if he would rather things had come down in IA in the manner they have in NC. So you need a lock on a cage... Is that gonna kill you. So you have to register with your local lawenforcement so that emergency response will know what they are walking into. This will change very little for most responsible keepers. This is far less invasive than the solution florida came up with.

AW

Andrew,
I truly meant no disrespect in my previous post, the same goes for this post as well. I knew I should've tried calling you instead of putting it in writing. Next time I'll follow my instincts.

"...this has been going on for 4 years in NC. If you had no input it is because you chose to stay in the shadows."

That's pretty presumptuous. To be exact, there was nothing in my local, weekly, newspaper about such a proposal or law enactment. My "local" TV stations are all in Chattanooga, TN, and none of them ever said anything about it. The nearest decent newspaper box is 25 miles away from me and I rarely go in that direction. Please don't accuse me of "staying in the shadows" when you have absolutely no idea.

"So you need a lock on a cage... Is that gonna kill you."

Ha! Ha! Doubt it, especially since my large constrictor cages already have locks. I wasn't knockin' the particulars, or regulatory, restrictive, properties of the Bill. In fact, I wasn't knockin' the Bill at all, and I thought I made that clear but I might've failed in that area. Sorry for the confusion.

I honestly don't remember when & where I heard/read about the NC proposal. I know it wasn't any more than 2 yrs ago. I remember that it was also the first time I had heard of NCARK. KS.com is pretty much the only forum I post on and I mostly post in the Burmese Python forum. It wasn't till about a year or so ago that I even knew about this forum (Herp Law & CITES Forum).

Due to my interest (or, disinterest) in politics this forum is right up my alley because I'm always contacting my representatives on things I feel are worthy. In fact, I got a reply letter in the mail today about the economic stimulus legislation from Richard Burr(R), one of my US Senators. I can also tell you that my other US Senator, Kay Hagan(D), and my House representative, Heath Shuler(D), do not respond to written or e-mail letters.

I will admit that I need to get more involved in State government issues. One reason I haven't been very active there is due to the lack of available info. I will work on that.

Anyway, back to my main point - I see you answered it in a post below, saying, "There was no compromise. This was offered to the Senator as an alternative to the Ban that the Animal Protection Institue was pushing."

In a good way, I see that as a form of compromise - one in exchange for another. It sounds as if the Senator compromised. I still have my concerns and/or questions about whether NCARK actually fought against the ban and came up with its proposal as a last resort to a losing battle, OR, quickly made a counter-offer. I don't know and I'm not going to assume. I'm hoping that you'll explain that to me & everyone else reading this thread (which I hope are many).

I was recently asked in a forum about my thoughts on the two US proposals and I encouraged everyone to take a look at USARK's website & PIJAC's website, along with a few threads here in this forum. I told a person that I had some things I wanted to research and would post back. Unfortunately, as of yet, I've been unable to do the research I wanted to. My original question & concerns were part of that research. I know Tom well enough to give his recommendation some heavy consideration. I know Tom was in the Chicago meeting. If you only knew how bad I wanted to be there. If you only knew how eager I am to get more involved in the current things, but a lack of money for travel, a lack of time & health, and livin' way out in the boonies where nobody can hear me holler, pretty well seems like my hands are tied.

Have a great day!
Michael Sanders
(HH)

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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

This is exactly what the herp hobby needs to be doing in every state-congratulations to USARK! The state level is exactly where these questions should be handled.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I do have questions myself regarding this proposal as well:
1) Could the venomous animals be more specifically defined, such as by
scientific family (i.e viperidae, elapidae, etc)? As the section is currently written, would it be applicable to every species with a duvernoy's gland (such as Heterodon and Thamnophis, or Hognose and garter snakes respectively)?

2) One section stated that animals must be registered locally. Would this section be a precautionary for
emergency personnal for the possible event of a natural disaster,
accident, or similar occurance affecting the animal keeper's facility that they would need to respond to?

3) Also in the registration section, it states that the animals must
be registered by a specific deadline. Would this mean that owners who
wish to keep these species after the deadline has passed will not be
able to register or do so?

Anything that requires registration then becomes a public record (at least in my state of Wisconsin) that your neighbors (or theives) can access to either harass you or burglarize you. Insurance companys also can access these records. they already use them to cancel homeowners insurance on owners of dogs they consider to be high-risk. Type in "insurance" in the search box and you will see lots of past discussion threads on reptile owners losing their homeowners insurance when the company discovered they had reptiles or other exotic pets. Type in "theft" or "stolen" and see how prevalent collection thefts are.
Ed Stone, WI Herpetological Society

All of these are legitimate problems BUT it's still better than an all out BAN WHICH WITHOUT REGULATIONS IN PLACE LEAD TO EVENTUALLY. USARK is providing the BEST we can hope for period....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

What happened here in Florida was that while everyone was discussing what might turn out to be more or less a useless permitting system based on dangerous open ended legislation
the activist were already working on bigger plans .

After the permitting system anti ownership groups immediately tried to get a law passed requiring people to tell their neighbors what they were keeping. Essentially like a pedophile has to report their presents in the area. When this failed Carole Baskin of the Big Cat Rescue contacted Florida Fish and Wildlife and got a list of all the permit holders. A map of where many of these people lived appeared in a local paper . In addition she sent out a letter to all the neighbors of permit holders warning them about the dangerous animals living next door.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Eric- The registration is strictly for emergency response. The deadline is for all the facilities currently operating in the initial registration process. There is one year to get registered. After that you would need to register immediately upon establishing a new facility.
AW

Do we agree that large constrictors are "essentially dangerous"? Do we agree that they should be "declared a public nuisance" and that exposing people to them should be a crime? Should "suggesting, enticing, inviting or inducing" someone to handle a snake be a crime? Do you want the government to tell you how your animals should be kept? Do you think we need additional rules governing transport of snakes? Do you this its necessary that we be licensed and registered to keep large snakes? Have we lost our collective minds??

Please don't come back with "if we don't regulate ourselves they'll do it for us". What has happened to us? Why do we submit to this kind of interference in our daily lives. Its almost like we expect and want someone else to tell us what to do. Maybe we will eventually have to submit to some restrictions on our personal freedoms but I will not submit voluntarily and start negotiations by giving away the store.

Bob, I've known you for 30 plus years and you KNOW how I feel about restrictive laws. We have to fight these new regulations just as everyone else does on any bill they disagree with. I would be in total agreement on an all out attack on this new bill by Senator Nelson except for one small detail. It's NOT smart to go to a gunfight at the O.K. Corral armed with a boy scout knife. WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THE LOBBIEST THAT ARE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO WIN? We can't even come together collectively as an Industry. Read back on the Retic Forums about attacks on people keeping big snakes with herpers willing to sacrifice them in order to be allowed to keep their own personal interest herps. These same folks don't realize that the hidden agenda is to outlaw all herps not just Retics and Burmese. I and others have pushed and prodded folks to join PIJAC and USARK and its like pulling teeth to get someone to pay for a $25 membership much less donate thousands of dollars for lobbiest. How do you propose we fight this? You tell me a better way and I'll fight to the end.....TC
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You know I love you Tom, but I can't go along with this. I wouldn't want this to be a model for other states. Sen. Nelson's bill deals with the invasive aspect of big pythons and is based, for the most part, on bad science. This one is a safety issue and I disagree with the premise. We've gotten along fine for almost 250 years without this kind of regulation and oversight and we just don't need it now. I'd rather fight a proposed bill than give in before any fight at all.

Bob, i don't understand your position. I have heard very little to nothing out of you as states have gone down the drain one by one implementing full BANS, but we find an alternative that maintains the ability to buy, sell, trade and work with these animals and you complain that is to restrictive?
AW

Why it this hard to understand? I do not agree with the premise that we need to submit to regulation. This is the kind of thing I expect USARK to fight not promote. I fought this here locally and won......no restrictions on my rights to keep and breed large constrictors.

If you were located in NC instead of OK this proposal would do nothing to keep you from keeping, breeding and trading in large constrictors.

AW

I agree to the fighting part but my question is what choice of weapons are we to use? We all know it's bad science but it's being tried in the court of public opinion. As I said before I'm willing to do anything and everything I can do to help but they have nuclear weapons and we have spears....TC
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Bob- there is some archaic language in this bill that would be changed in appling it to other states. It was originally written in the 1930's to prohibit snake handling in church. Read closely... the qualifying phrase is "in an unsafe manner" "Safe and responsible handling of reptiles for purposes of animal husbandry, training, transport, and education is permitted". the bottom line is this... very little will change for most responsible keepers. The only problem will arise if gross negligence leads to lifethreatening injury or death of a member of the public.
AW

I'm not sure I want to leave that to someone else's interpretation, do you?

no i don't... no bill is going to be perfect. I am a Libertarian I am sickened by the turn toward socialism our country has taken. The government is overstepping it's bounds implementing overburdensome legislation every day. The fact is- If we hadn't done this you would have one less state to market your product in. We have to have a certain amount of pragmatism here. Legislation is coming... are we going to give alternatives we can live with... or are we going to get mowed down and be obliterated. Government and Politics suck... and it is going to get worse at the federal level... but we MUST find a way to survive!!!

AW

Again, I appreciate all the hard work that has been done, but
I'm not understanding how this bill, if passed, will prevent the AR folks from pushing their agenda (ie, banning ownership). A compromise is a compromise only if both sides agree to it. Was there some indication that the "other side", so to speak, will ease up and this bill truly is a compromise??

Thanks!
Ed

>>no i don't... no bill is going to be perfect. I am a Libertarian I am sickened by the turn toward socialism our country has taken. The government is overstepping it's bounds implementing overburdensome legislation every day. The fact is- If we hadn't done this you would have one less state to market your product in. We have to have a certain amount of pragmatism here. Legislation is coming... are we going to give alternatives we can live with... or are we going to get mowed down and be obliterated. Government and Politics suck... and it is going to get worse at the federal level... but we MUST find a way to survive!!!
>>
>>AW

There was no compromise. This was offered to the Senator as an alternative to the Ban that the Animal Protection Institue was pushing. Their Bill was thrown out and our alternative was put in. The writing was on the wall. NC is going to pass a bill. The only question is whether it will be one we propose or the one the AR folk propose. AR got tossed out and we replaced them. They will be back... but w/o some major catalizing incident the NC Legislature won't entertain them. Our bill allows people to continue to do what we do and gives the legislature what they want... which is regulation. The bottom line is we have a proposal for regulation w/o being overly restrictive. Business can continue on. The alternative is a blanket BAN and another victory for AR.

AW

I am a HOT keeper and Retic breeder. I bought a good amount of retic stock from Bob. If API's bill passed I would never be able to buy retics from Bob again... and niether would anyone else in NC. Now if S307 passes I will be able to continue to buy retics from Bob.... and i can continue to buy, sell and trade anything that is not endangered. And my right is guaranteed by NC law. This is a victory for NC and the Herp Community!

AW

Thanks for the clarification. Please keep in mind people like myself only get little tidbits of information, so it's difficult to understand the big picture. And again, I truly appreciate the effort you and others have put forth, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything you've done. But the bottom line is that this bill IS a compromise. So it's understandable and perfectly reasonable that a percentage of reptile owners will disagree with it.

Thanks!
Ed

>>There was no compromise. This was offered to the Senator as an alternative to the Ban that the Animal Protection Institue was pushing. Their Bill was thrown out and our alternative was put in. The writing was on the wall. NC is going to pass a bill. The only question is whether it will be one we propose or the one the AR folk propose. AR got tossed out and we replaced them. They will be back... but w/o some major catalizing incident the NC Legislature won't entertain them. Our bill allows people to continue to do what we do and gives the legislature what they want... which is regulation. The bottom line is we have a proposal for regulation w/o being overly restrictive. Business can continue on. The alternative is a blanket BAN and another victory for AR.
>>
>>AW

This is an uphill battle. If we were collectors/breeders of cute fuzzy animals we would have some public support. With snakes, there is NONE. People look at us like we're crazy because of the animals we keep. No one would protest at all, or try to regulate us if we were keeping rabbits. ANY compromise or alternative legislation is good. The public and legislaters would be happy if all the snakes were gone from us..or the planet.

I applaud Andrew for doing something, even if it's not perfect, or what we would prefer. If nothing is done, we lose the right to sell and trade animals that we dearly love. If you took "pythons" out of this year's Daytona, how many snakes would be left? Are ball pythons 50% of what's sold? Add large constrictors to that group that are not in the python genus and where are we? Rat snakes and kingsnakes are all that's left to keep???

I understand Bob's frustration and unhappiness with what's happening, but Florida is just the tip of the iceberg. This isn't just a state issue anymore, it's nationwide. Jeez...Barney Frank has even become a part of this. How many wild pythons are there in New England???

You say snake, people react negatively. There just isn't enough support from the community to do nothing. This is a start, let's view it as that.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

With all due respect, I'll look at this however I decide to look at it. I fully understand that this is an uphill, if not unwinnable, battle. I've said exactly what you've said in many posts. And I specifically said I don't necessarily disagree with the NC legislation. But the expectation that *every* reptile owner should blindly jump behind in lockstep and pretend there are no negatives to government regulation (even if for today it seems minor), is arrogant, if not dangerous. Anyway, there doesn't seem to be any interest in debating this, so I'll shut up now.

Thanks,
Ed

>>This is an uphill battle. If we were collectors/breeders of cute fuzzy animals we would have some public support. With snakes, there is NONE. People look at us like we're crazy because of the animals we keep. No one would protest at all, or try to regulate us if we were keeping rabbits. ANY compromise or alternative legislation is good. The public and legislaters would be happy if all the snakes were gone from us..or the planet.
>>
>> I applaud Andrew for doing something, even if it's not perfect, or what we would prefer. If nothing is done, we lose the right to sell and trade animals that we dearly love. If you took "pythons" out of this year's Daytona, how many snakes would be left? Are ball pythons 50% of what's sold? Add large constrictors to that group that are not in the python genus and where are we? Rat snakes and kingsnakes are all that's left to keep???
>>
>> I understand Bob's frustration and unhappiness with what's happening, but Florida is just the tip of the iceberg. This isn't just a state issue anymore, it's nationwide. Jeez...Barney Frank has even become a part of this. How many wild pythons are there in New England???
>>
>> You say snake, people react negatively. There just isn't enough support from the community to do nothing. This is a start, let's view it as that.
>>-----
>>1.0 Blackheaded pythons
>>2.4 Woma
>>3.2 Aussie Olives
>>1.1 Timors
>>1.3 Bloods
>>2.2 IJ Carpets
>>2.0 Coastal Carpets
>>1.3 Macklotts
>>1.2 F2 Carpondros
>>2.0 Jungle Carpet
>>1.0 Jag IJCP
>>0.1 Carpondro
>>1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
>>1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
>>0.1 child, CB
>>0.1 wife, WC

Ed, what is your alternative to what's being proposed here? And I say that nicely. One way or another, the gov't IS going to get involved here, make no mistake about it. Better the situation that you can deal with, as opposed to the one you can't.

And we need to "head them off at the pass", as it were.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Can we see the wording of the bill? Will the information of permit holders be private, as in kept from the hands of the general public from FOI? Will a person with a nice basement in a residential neighborhood still be able to possess a large constrictor? I still have hopes some day of adopting the Burmese python I cared for 19 years ago, but can't do it if neighbors protest!

Katrina
(who currently can't have snakes)