Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Want to see something cool (and unsettling on my part)?? Bet you never see photos like this in the forums, LoL!

These are the Radiographs/X-Rays of my WC Gravid Female, who I have been affectionately calling "Lucky." Please keep in mind that these films have been edited only in contrast for visibility purposes -- when you convert the DiCom image to a JPeg it looses alot of its image quality, and if you don't have an amazing HD screen or a screen meant for viewing Radiographs you're even worse off!! Also, in all of these photos the caudal end (or tail end) is towards the top, and the cranial end (or head end) is towards the bottom. The "R" stands for right side. These photos are looking down on the snake, so her back is up (there should have been a "DV" tag in these photos meaning Dorsal to Ventral, but there were cut off).

I purchased Lucky from Ian G and she is quite gorgeous for a big fancy normal. I know a lot of people are against the WC Gamble, but Frank hand picked her out of a tub of normal gravids with a hope to have our own eggs. We are new to the breeding game (though we are not new to keeping snakes) and last year was had no luck with the only 3 females we had up to size. We are having better luck this year, at least I hope.

As Lucky is a WC import, I have no idea when she ovulated, but we were starting to get concerned that she should have laid her eggs by now. She's lost her glow and she's shed TWICE since we've had her... so0o I took her in to my animal hospital to have her looked at by our exotics vet expert -- is she still developing and I am worrying over nothing? Off-chance that she re-absorbed her follicles?? Is she egg-bound??

The ultrasound was very inconclusive as far as a stage in development in the eggs, but these were the X-Rays. The X-Rays only take a 40 cm film, so it was impossible for to get her wriggly self straight and get an accurate number of eggs, but there are at least 7.

However, if you look at the zoomed in rad below, you can see why we are worried. About 10 or 12 vertebrae up from her vent, she has about 8 or so broken ribs. The white blotchy/ghost-like things in that area we are assuming to be slugs.

The breaks all look very old and healed. At this point I can only hope that she's just not ready -- otherwise, she has broken ribs and slugs blocking the healthy eggs way out. Fortunately, the broken slices of ribs all seem to be on the outer part of the rib cage, so there are not fragments floating around in laterally in the middle. For now she is getting a BID/twice-daily calcium supplement until she lays. If she does not lay soon, I might have to consider Surgery.

If anyone out there is able to shed some light on this, GO FOR IT!! All help is appreciated. Even ideas in diagnostics ideas are appreciated. I know some vets wander these forums! Until than, here are some photos of the outside of her, let me know what you think!

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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

Holy cow. She's full.

Those calcified bits near the end worry me. Is she bright alert responsive? Active? Well hydrated? My concern would be at what point we work on expelling the slugs without causing further harm (i.e. oxytocin, etc.) Calcium & fluids should help in the meantime. Any thoughts on a cloacal approach? (Lubrication?) Any pain management being employed at this point? I'd worry this poor girl is so sore from the fractures she may be averse to "pushing". I've got dosage ranges for common pain meds that you likely have access to, but I'd rather not post them on a public forum. Feel free to drop me a line privately if you'd like that info. Good luck!

-Tami*

s she bright alert responsive? Active?
She is decently BAR, tho QAR would be more appropriate a description for her, LoL. As I had stated below, she is acting decently bright. She is not lethargic or sluggish. She even had no problem trying to bite Cheyenne more than once -- one of my coworkers who helped me with the rads. And she struggles pretty good when I have to give her the oral meds (she doesn't like it). However, she has not been cruising or roaming around her bin AT ALL. And sticking coiled to the warm side, which I would expect her to be as a gravid girl. There's some more details in my post below in my response to Ssnakes message.

Well hydrated?...Calcium & fluids should help in the meantimeShe is decently hydrated, maybe 2% dehydrated per the doctor, maybe only a spits worth. However we never attempted to administer fluids -- it was discussed, but I wanted to make her visit as fast as possible, and turned it down. I was wary about bring her in the first place. I didn't want to stress her out more than necessary, you know? You think fluids would be worth it?? Cuz I could always bring them home and do it SubQ, but I doubt I could do IV on my own.

She is however getting a Calcium Supplement. She weighed in at 2513 grams, and we generalized a 2000 gram mark in attempt to consider some of it egg weight. So she's getting 0.02-0.06 mls Calcium Gluconate BID as needed till she lays.

Any pain management being employed at this point? I'd worry this poor girl is so sore from the fractures she may be averse to "pushing". We did not start her on any pain meds, as she wasn't sensitive to the touch to the area at all. I honestly had NO IDEA she had any broken ribs, and the rads really shocked me. I can definitely start her on some tho, if necessary. Do you know of any ways I would be able to tell if she is pushing? Is there anything obvious I should be looking for?

My concern would be at what point we work on expelling the slugs without causing further harm (i.e. oxytocin, etc.)...Any thoughts on a cloacal approach? (Lubrication?)
Now I feel like a total noob. I never even considered Oxytocin in Reptiles!! I thought that this only helped with vaginal labor, etc. You'd have to tell me more details on that one JUST because I am interested. And do you mean Lubricating the vent in general or lubing for extraction of the poop/slug/whatever-it-is. The other exotic expert comes into tomorrow night, so I'm supposed to talk to them BOTH tomorrow, as the one that hasn't seen her yet has the more years experience with reptiles, and a lot more knowledge on reproduction. I'm sorry if I'm sounding stupid. Feel free to PM me please!! I just wanted to post it on here just in case someone can help from my responses.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

With here being at the stage she is and being a wild caught she will be more defensive , and should not be handled unless absolutely necessary , as to keep her stress level down ,being wild caught she is under a lot of stress already . Just some friendly warnings. David of DS Reptile Rescue ,Removal & Rehabilitation

Are you sure the masses at the vent aren't urates????? If they are, they may have passed since you posted?

That's what we're hoping, that its just poop, and why I am not panicking yet (big YET right there). I figured I just throw in the Calcium Supplement and wait a little longer to see...
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

First let me say she is beautiful.

You say she has shed two times since you have had her....how long have you had her? What is her demeanor? Is she laying in a tight perfect coil on heat? Is she laying off heat? Moving around or still? Do you have any kind of nesting box or substrate for her and if so, is she using it? Did you see any ovulation? When was the last shed? All of the answers to these questions will give you clues to egg laying. Let us know some answers and we will offer some guidance.

Susan
SSNAKES Reptiles

Thanks for your help Susan!! Here are the answers to your questions. Please let me know if you have trouble with them.

You say she has shed two times since you have had her....how long have you had her? We got her at the January 10th Havre De Grace Reptile Show from Outback Reptiles.

What is her demeanor?
QAR. Basicallyacting decently bright. She is not lethargic or sluggish. She even had no problem trying to bite Cheyenne more than once, one of my coworkers who helped me with the rads. And she struggles pretty good when I have to give her the oral meds (she doesn't like it).

Is she laying in a tight perfect coil on heat? Is she laying off heat? Moving around or still?
She is in a rack that provides belly heat. She has been sticking to the warm side which is around 89-93 degrees give or take. She has been coiled, and has not been "cruising," but not really in that picutre-perfect coil you would normally see.

Do you have any kind of nesting box or substrate for her and if so, is she using it?
I have not (total FAIL on my part). Open for suggestions. However, she has gotten cleanings of her tubs, and each time she keeps clearing the bedding out of the back and making herself a hole to sleep in.

Did you see any ovulation?
I did not. She was just as thick when I got her as she is now. i feel I probably would have missed it, and she came to me after ovulation.

When was the last shed?
Appx 9-10 days ago.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

...

those pictures are really cool and something different to see

very interesting! thanks for posting
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Misty Sprouse Ball Pythons

Gravids are not actually gravid when imported, it is a little known fact, but that is how you can import them and ship them without getting all bad eggs. They usually have good sized follicles when imported and depending on how far along they are will ovulate and lay eggs anywhere from now until mid march. We have a few females that just ovulated, most are dropping eggs, but a few will hold out longer.

She looks good, give her time and leave her alone and she will give you a nice big clutch. We held back a few females this year and have been averaging 8-10 eggs per clutch.

Hope this helps.
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J&J REPTILES
www.jnjreptiles.com
sales@jnjreptiles.com
(207)479-6658

It definitely does. I'm trying not to panic yet, but I guess you could say I am a BIG "worry-wart."
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

I may be jumping the gun a little bit, Tami. But if you PMed me, I haven't gotten anything from you! Maybe it didn't work?
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

forcing calcium into her twice a day would possibly make her in no mood to feel safe enough to lay eggs. i'd leave her in total silence for a bit. you might be stressing her out with your stress.