Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am reposting here....I have posted about this before but I just need to vent. My male black milk is working on his fourth year now and he still has not completed his color change. I have a female that is not two years old yet and she is almost solid black. Anyone with a Black Milk that has taken longer than normal to change or has one that never completely changed. I added some pics I took tonight, not very good but they get the point across.

Thanks,
Miller
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1.1 Florida King
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
1.2 Kankakee Bull Snakes
2.2 Still Water Hypos
1.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
2.2 N. Pinesnake
0.1 Tangerine Honduran
0.0.1 Black Ratsnake
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.1 Cats (Shug)

yoyo joey, yeah i have a pair that is '03 pushing 5ft. and my male still has a similiar wash of color left where as my female is totally black, perhaps a sex indicator or more than likely has to do with why they turn black(cool temps) to begin with. they do like it cool in 5 yrs ive maybe seen mine on the warm spot 2or3 times and only then for a very short period but man they are really cool snakes,huh?,,,,,,,,thomas
old pic

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Too funny, I was going to shoot you an email because thought you had some black milks. I love mine and you are right I never see him or the female on the warm side of their cages. Chicago is no way as warm as Texas I may be moving home sooner than later! My male is a garbage disposal he out eats my kings two to one.

Do you think your male has stopped changing all together? I think my male is still turning just very very slowly

>>yoyo joey, yeah i have a pair that is '03 pushing 5ft. and my male still has a similiar wash of color left where as my female is totally black, perhaps a sex indicator or more than likely has to do with why they turn black(cool temps) to begin with. they do like it cool in 5 yrs ive maybe seen mine on the warm spot 2or3 times and only then for a very short period but man they are really cool snakes,huh?,,,,,,,,thomas
>>old pic
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
>>
>>my website www.barmollysplace.com
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1.1 Florida King
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
1.2 Kankakee Bull Snakes
2.2 Still Water Hypos
1.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
2.2 N. Pinesnake
0.1 Tangerine Honduran
0.0.1 Black Ratsnake
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.1 Cats (Shug)

i beleive my male is still turning also albeit very S L O W his wash has gotten darker and darker every year. im gonna try and breed mine next year i beleive,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I have a yearling pair that are both jet black already.

I have seen a handful that just never fully changed. I have heard theories that the temps are too warm but I don't know if that holds any water. What are your temps? I have also heard that there could be some hybridization at work.

It would seem to me like there is a natural spectrum from fully black to somewhat banded. Any Panamanian field herpers want to chime in? hahaha

Thanks for the response, I lived in Houston when I got him and he was not on any added heat, he lived in an air conditioned room. Now that i've lived in Chicago for the past two year he definitely has not been exposed to high temps. I got him at a reptile show from John Cherry's son of Cherryville farm. To my knowledge he is a reputable breeder with a long standing reputation so I don't think the hybrid theory applies in this case. I just hope he completely changes...eventually.

Thanks,
Miller

>>I have a yearling pair that are both jet black already.
>>
>>I have seen a handful that just never fully changed. I have heard theories that the temps are too warm but I don't know if that holds any water. What are your temps? I have also heard that there could be some hybridization at work.
>>
>>It would seem to me like there is a natural spectrum from fully black to somewhat banded. Any Panamanian field herpers want to chime in? hahaha
-----
1.1 Florida King
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
1.2 Kankakee Bull Snakes
2.2 Still Water Hypos
1.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
2.2 N. Pinesnake
0.1 Tangerine Honduran
0.0.1 Black Ratsnake
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.1 Cats (Shug)

some snakes that go through ontogentic color changes end up not loosing all the pattern into adulthood, some black pines retain their banded patterns as well.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Don't say that I have a baby black pine also!!!!!

>>some snakes that go through ontogentic color changes end up not loosing all the pattern into adulthood, some black pines retain their banded patterns as well.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
-----
1.1 Florida King
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
1.2 Kankakee Bull Snakes
2.2 Still Water Hypos
1.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
2.2 N. Pinesnake
0.1 Tangerine Honduran
0.0.1 Black Ratsnake
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.1 Cats (Shug)

I wouldn't be upset about that at all, he looks AWESOME... Makes me want one like that now...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

He is a pretty cool snake and I am not disappointed in him. My female is pretty much solid black at less than two years. Get one or two, often think of making my collection 100% black milks

Miller

>>I wouldn't be upset about that at all, he looks AWESOME... Makes me want one like that now...
>>-----
>>~Maggie~
>>
>>"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
>>1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
>>1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
>>1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
>>0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
>>1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
>>1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
>>0.1 Cat (Ecco)
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1.1 Florida King
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
1.2 Kankakee Bull Snakes
2.2 Still Water Hypos
1.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
2.2 N. Pinesnake
0.1 Tangerine Honduran
0.0.1 Black Ratsnake
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.1 Cats (Shug)

I love my kings, but I wouldn't mind expanding my collection... I'm looking into the legalities of opening a reptile oriented petshop at the moment, so I'm sure when I start attending expos to purchase stock I won't be able to avoid adding to my own collection while I'm at it...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

Yours does seem to be taking a bit longer then many I've seen. I've seen alot of variation between the length of time it takes to complete the change. My 07 male is about 1 1/2 years of age, and here's a pic of him below. He's San Antonio Zoo stock. Even with that, I think there's much variation between individuals, even from the same stock. Check out the link below of a video of two black milks, both the same age, but a huge difference in color.

Link

That was a great video, thanks for sharing. To my knowledge both of mine are SA Zoo decendants. So that would prove that the color change is determine by the individual snake not the line. Either way his is a great snake. I was really interested if anyone has an older snake that never completely changed maybe 5 or 6 years old....

Miller

>>Yours does seem to be taking a bit longer then many I've seen. I've seen alot of variation between the length of time it takes to complete the change. My 07 male is about 1 1/2 years of age, and here's a pic of him below. He's San Antonio Zoo stock. Even with that, I think there's much variation between individuals, even from the same stock. Check out the link below of a video of two black milks, both the same age, but a huge difference in color.
>>
>>Link
-----
1.1 Florida King
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
1.2 Kankakee Bull Snakes
2.2 Still Water Hypos
1.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
2.2 N. Pinesnake
0.1 Tangerine Honduran
0.0.1 Black Ratsnake
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.1 Cats (Shug)

Yes I raised up many of them and had some that never got much darker than the one you picture, others darkened more but still had traces of pattern and some actually darkened completely. I have seen people post in the past saying they all do. Not true in my experience and I can show you the reciepts.I think it's like Lodingi. Some folks swear they have a truly Black animal and when you see it in person, if your at all discriminating, you see lots of pattern and traces of white. It's a real heartbreak to go through raising up an animal for some years for it to be a lot less than what you were hoping for. Be very wary of folks who advertise ALL BLACK
gaigeae. You'll notice on many of the ads they don't show pics of the adults and balk at showing the adults. Some folks just want to sell snakes and will tell you anything. Learned the hard way. I gave a bunch away as "pets".

[IMG]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j291/BobS_/florida08058.jpg[/IMG)

Good luck with them. They are awesome when you get the solid back examples.Personally I think the perfect Black ones are one of the most beautiful Colubrids out there. I also think the ones with pattern are some of the ugliest. personal opinion.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

PS.

some years back I had a very well known and reputable breeder tell me that back when Black Milks were high dollar items and uncommon in the hobby there were folks that were breeding them to their Honduran projects in hopes of using the dark pigment in some morphs with the public none the wiser.(Probably still have the e-mail)

Is that why some of ours look dirty? I have no idea.

I have seen pics from other collectors with their Gaigeae from other local specific areas where not being totaly black was the norm. You can probably find them in the archives a few years back.

Hang in there.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

...Funny that you mention the Honduran possibility (not stating that is what the seller sold me but playing devils advacate). When I look at his head compared to the female, they look very different to me. She has a more pointed snout whereas his is a bit more blunt. That could be due to the current size differce. the may look completely identical when she is over four feet as he is.

Well he is a great snake otherwise. Hopefully he will complete his color change. If not, I will still keep him around.

>>PS.
>>
>>some years back I had a very well known and reputable breeder tell me that back when Black Milks were high dollar items and uncommon in the hobby there were folks that were breeding them to their Honduran projects in hopes of using the dark pigment in some morphs with the public none the wiser.(Probably still have the e-mail)
>>
>>Is that why some of ours look dirty? I have no idea.
>>
>>I have seen pics from other collectors with their Gaigeae from other local specific areas where not being totaly black was the norm. You can probably find them in the archives a few years back.
>>
>>Hang in there.
>>-----
>> Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.
-----
1.1 Florida King
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
1.2 Kankakee Bull Snakes
2.2 Still Water Hypos
1.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
2.2 N. Pinesnake
0.1 Tangerine Honduran
0.0.1 Black Ratsnake
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.1 Cats (Shug)

Cool. I did not want to, or mean to insult your snake. I posted before reading the other posts. I have no first hand knowledge of the possible Honduran cross just thought I'd give you as much info as I could.
Good luck with them
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Oh I did not take your post as an insult at all! I was very grateful for the feedback and information.

Miller

>>Cool. I did not want to, or mean to insult your snake. I posted before reading the other posts. I have no first hand knowledge of the possible Honduran cross just thought I'd give you as much info as I could.
>> Good luck with them
>>-----
>> Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.
-----
1.1 Florida King
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
1.2 Kankakee Bull Snakes
2.2 Still Water Hypos
1.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
2.2 N. Pinesnake
0.1 Tangerine Honduran
0.0.1 Black Ratsnake
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.1 Cats (Shug)