Reptile & Amphibian Forums

To me this is a very good question. I hope someone can give me a good reason.

I have never treated a colubrid for parasites since 64, when I started breeding them.

Heres my view, Wild snakes reinfect themselves with nearly every meal, for their entire lives. Yet they live and breed and appear very healthy(on average)

Yet, for many keepers, if they do not treat them, their animals fail(?) Do they? or are you just treating them to make yourself feel better?

I feel its a better approach to support a strong immune system and not have to worry about minor non harmful things like parasites.

And yes, I have worked with lots and lots of wild caught reptiles.

Again, Why? Cheers

Parasites at low levels are fine. The vast majority of reptiles that I have dissected (captive bred ones included) have had some sort of worms in their gut.

But the bottom line is this. While a few parasites are no big deal to a healthy reptile (or horse or dog) they can do no good whatsoever. At best they are benign but in times of stress (shipping, switching food types, being captured...) they can have a real negative effect. The more stress the worse it gets. A snake you catch in your backyard might be briefly stressed, but the snake that spends 1 week in a box on its way here from maylasia is a whole nother story. You could argue that if we kept them perfectly parasites shouldn't be an issue, but we both know that that is not reality for the VAST majority of captive snakes.

Its rare but I have seen a few snakes and many aquatic turtles with immense parasite loads that were getting by OK but clearly did better after treatment.

If you had the choice of a clean snake vs a parasitized one, why not worm them?

Thanks for the great post, but you did not address my point. Why not support their immune system, first.

You did mention that stress impacted their ability to control parasites. Isn't it a little more accurate that stress actually impacts the immune system and that hinders not only the snakes ability to control parasites(or simply exsist with them) but to fight off all pathogens.

The above is my point, while I totally support the use of Vets, I think we should support our snakes so that Vets are not "commonly" needed for such things are normal parasite loads.

Holistically, there is a "normal" balance of energy consumption, energy usage, and parasite load that allows snakes to maintain a decent body weight, growth, reproductive success and longevity. The snakes(reptiles) I work with in the field seem to live forever. yesterday, I photographed a gila I first photographed, 30 years ago. It does not appear to look old yet, not compared to other older looking individuals.

Yet in captivity, we(all of us) have listless overweight snakes. And we take away everything that would allow them to be active trim healthy. We do not allow exercise(sweater boxes), we keep them at the lowest possible temp, we feed them on a schedule, that does not reflect anything of the snakes natural stradgy.

Again, I offer a wide range of temps and I do not get overweight fat snakes, sir, getting fat is a sign their metabolism is too low. Getting overwelmed by parasites is a sign that their immune system is out of wack. Yet we do not change the conditions that cause these, instead we take them to the vet.

Again, deseased snakes SHOULD go to the vet, the above is not desease, its conditional and can easily be prevented with proper husbandry. Consider, proper husbandry is husbandry that allows the animals to have normal natural defenses against such things as parasites.

I also disagree, in this area, kingsnakes, there is not kings shipped from indo. In fact, there are many hundreds of thousands captive produced each and every year. I venture to say that wild caughts only make up a small percentage of the kings in captivity. So for the sake of this forum, Parasite overload is not a common problem for kingsnakes. Yet, treating for parasites is common. I would also venture to say, its done because the keepers know of no other option. Cheers

"Why not support their immune system, first"

I'll answer that, because support alone wont get rid of the parasites.

Captive animals are subject to a process called "parasite amplification" where the level of parasites increases due to constrained captive conditions. Eventually even well supported animals can succumb without some intervention. For example, wild snakes get mites too but captive ones can become infested.

Whenever there is an indication that parasites are present reasonable and proper measures should be taken to treat. If you have a personal collection and don't want to treat that's fine but if you sell and trade your snakes the ethical thing to do is treat so you wont spread unwanted riders to other's collections. If somebody shipped me a mite infested snake I'd be extremely disappointed especially when they are so easy to completely eradicate. Worms shouldn't be given a pass either.

I know you're just fostering a conversation here Frank so that wasn't a dig but support is not the whole answer and that is why we treat.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

>Yet in captivity, we(all of us) have listless overweight snakes. And we take away everything that would allow them to be active trim healthy. We do not allow exercise(sweater boxes), we keep them at the lowest possible temp, we feed them on a schedule, that does not reflect anything of the snakes natural stradgy.<

Maybe we shouldn't be keeping them in captivity?

Or if we choose to, adjust our expectations?

Does being subjected to natural weather conditions/cycles do more for them than we realize?
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Maybe we should let Frank live in his natural environment. As
a hunter/gatherer. Exposed to all of the risks of nature, including human parasites. Enjoy Frank! I think we, as keepers, breeders, hobbyists, need to realize that we are NOT going to be
able to perfectly similate a snakes natural eviron. Not that I would personaly want to. I do want to enjoy the animal in MY captive environ. Ethics aside, these are no longer wild snakes.
No matter what anybody says, if you keep snakes in captivity you are trying to fulfill our needs, not the snakes! Now, I will give
my captives the most fulfilling environment as possible, i.e., temp. gradient, humidity, hides, water source, and food, but at some point this becomes a compromise. Parasites tax all animals,
including humans, and provide no benefit. So why allow them the chance to thrive? Even a snake provided with the mythical Frank Retes Method, will still continue to have some parasite load. I have yet to see a thorough description of how Frank keeps his animals. Frank, why beat around the bush so much? It's not like it's a trade secret, and the internet world is going to put you
out of a job! Maybe the question we should ask you is, why not remove/treat parasites?
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

How do you know that parasites have no benefit to their host? They certainly do not want to kill their host what type of survival strategy is that?

The REAL question is what is the actual relationship between a parasite and its host? Truth is in most cases we don't know!

They use to think that mycorrhizal fungi was the cause of disease in plants, but as it turns out they partition nutrients to the host plants and help prevent disease.

flip that coin!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Post modernism at its best!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

The Compact Oxford English Dictionary refers to postmodernism as "a style and concept in the arts characterized by distrust of theories and ideologies and by the drawing of attention to conventions." Ha!.......Ha!Ha!........Oh..Ha!
Let them eat Fish!!! LOL!!!
-Phil
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Frank Retes
witnessed the Big Bang!

LOL Postmodern? Is that a compliment? I'll take it as one...hahahahahahah good times!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Besides , from your example that is no longer classified as a parasite but a symbiote, no?
By the way very good points all to Zach,Tony,Bob and Phil. Nobody, and I will rarely say this as an absolutism, is perfect. This would be well to be remembered by people who tend to be "legends in their own mind".

So therefore let them flourish!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

If they benefitted the host it would be a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic one. A parasite is only detrimental to its host by definition.
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God Bless Evolution.

No, that only means we don't understand what the relationship is because we don't understand it. The term "parasite" is unfalsifiable by definition.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Posted by: Beaker30 at Fri Feb 27 21:20:50 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

No, that only means we don't understand what the relationship is because we don't understand it. The term "parasite" is unfalsifiable by definition.

I LOVE these kind of threads.

No, it means that as we understand it now, it is detrimental to the host and therefore a parasite. What youre saying is that in the future, there is a chance that some benefit (or symbiosis) may be uncovered...which is entirely true. Until that happens, the organism in question is considered parasitic.
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God Bless Evolution.

Yes, but that does not change the fact that the term is ambiguous in nature and reflects misunderstanding. To say something can only have one function to fit the term cannot be disproved without the term failing to have any meaning at all. Hence it's absolute ambiguity.

Additionally, if an organism that is generally considered a parasite consumes its host it is no longer fitting the definition. I think the real problem is that the organisms that can have parasitic characteristics function to the overall health of an ecosystem and not an individual. So they take over an individual when something else is wrong to benefit the overall health of the community with which they live. Isn't that a benefit? In my mind that is again outside of the definition, and thus the word perpetuates misunderstanding of the function of an organism, so no individual organism can be a "parasite" though it could behave as one.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Still not following you. Terms are new to me and I've looked them up but in context I'm still lost. Are you just playing around or is there a real point?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Prate   /preɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [preyt] Show IPA verb, prat⋅ed, prat⋅ing, noun
–verb (used without object) 1. to talk excessively and pointlessly; babble: They prated on until I was ready to scream.
–verb (used with object) 2. to utter in empty or foolish talk: to prate absurdities with the greatest seriousness.
–noun 3. act of prating.
4. empty or foolish talk.
Origin:
1375–1425; late ME praten (v.) < MD praeten. See prattle

Related forms:

prater, noun
prat⋅ing⋅ly, adverb
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Frank Retes
witnessed the Big Bang!

LOL We never Prattle on and On about things! LOL!

That would be like beating a dead snake err...horse.

Snowing today here in the North East. But springs coming! Hang in there!
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Ahh, and I just finished installing an outdoor generator plug to go with my 8500 watt generator. Backfed through the ac line to the panel I can now run almost my entire house!! Now I don't have to worry about the snake room. That was first on the panel box of course!!

I have to keep the snake room windows open at night because it's starting to get too warm here!

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Diego

SWCHR

Snowing as I type. For a minute there, I thought
I was put on a time out. I was unable to log in.
I guess they were experiencing some technical difficulties.
-Phil
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Frank Retes
witnessed the Big Bang!

Phil, me and snakebit thought the same thing!! Funny. You are south of me and I guess I better get ready for the snow huh. I guess I should also put my snake tongs back in the snake room!!

Yeah, I'm just playin. I'll try not to get too carried away. But seriously I do think that over time many parasites will be found to have some mutual benefit with their host, and thus no longer be considered true parasites, but definitely not all of them.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

In that vain all pathogens serve the biological function of limiting the population of their hosts. Outside of the natural context though I'm not sure this means much.

I just wish that before people start brandishing ideas like you don't need to treat for parasites they'd be a bit more specific about how they are otherwise dealt with. Tom's the only one that has tried though IMHO providing a wide heat gradient and more food than the snake and its parasites can eat is a reasonable alternative.

This all reminds me of the anti-spanking crowd. Their intensions are good but in trying to take away corporal punishment from parents they too often fail to provide a clear alternative. Look around and you see evidence that it isn't a good thing when parents don't or are afraid to discipline their kids.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

"This all reminds me of the anti-spanking crowd. Their intentions are good but in trying to take away corporal punishment from parents they too often fail to provide a clear alternative. Look around and you see evidence that it isn't a good thing when parents don't or are afraid to discipline their kids."

I definitely agree with you there!

I used to get paddled by my principal! I think he had a special paddle just for me! All different colors and such, Good times!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

"I used to get paddled by my principal! I think he had a special paddle just for me! All different colors and such, Good times!"

LOL INDEED. I had this science teacher Mr. Culver. If he didn't paddle you you just weren't one of the boys! To bring this a little on topic he had a fair collection of pickled snakes in his back room. One was a pine snake from the Delmarva penninsula. In later years I tried to locate this specimen for an ongoing study but it had been discarded. In any case there is no doubt in my mind what kind of snake it was.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, all this was said, a heat range allows the snake a full immune system, it also allows for things we do not know(which is vast) about snakes.

We do "KNOW" snakes use a wide range of temps in nature. About a 50F range. We do know some of the things that heat is used for. But we surely do not understand all. Thats very apparent as to how we keep them.

Besides, I did not say, do not treat them. I am WONDERING why they are treated so often and common place.

As mentioned, I have not had a need to treat wildcaughts or captives in many decades. And I have had good success. I have not had any snakes die from anything close to parasite infection. Including flagelletes. Which by the way is a problem with overheated snakes. Thanks for your viewpoint, Cheers

?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Knowing Frank he would probably do alright in his "natural" environment. In fact I'm picturing a Robinson Crusoe scene. LOL. Complete with cages with all the native fauna reproducing like crazy.

The condescending tone in regards to the mythical Retes method is definitely unneeded. Whether you like it or not whether you agree with him or not, You have to admit that Frank is doing something that very few people have been able to reproduce and in some areas (the consistency that he breeds varanids) he is unmatched at. The methods he tries to explain to you guys are the same that have led to success with not only his varanids but other varanid breeders across the GLOBE.

I believe Frank's point with the parasites is that when it comes to husbandry we are more worried about the speck of dust in one eye (parasites) than the 2" x 4" (overall husbandry) sticking out of the other.

Like you, I do have respect Frank for his experience
in herpetoculture, but Frank's condescending tone
on this forum is infamous, as well. Frank has started
many a heated discussions on this forum, and somehow has
managed to stay out of the penalty box! I do apologize
if some of my frustration at Franks seeded questions, came
across as condescending. Frank, I personally think you should
have just gone ahead and asked the question you really wanted answered. Which in so many ways you ask over and over again on this forum. Why isn't good husbandry a priority? I also understand Frank questioning "Care sheet Husbandry", but many
people on these forums are new to the hobby, and have yet
to discover the flaws in said system. Having an old time
expert, constantly criticize their methods is not necessiraly
a positive educational experience.
-Phil
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Frank Retes
witnessed the Big Bang!

Well said. Period.

watching the same half dozen guys take the bait every time it's laid out is worth the price of admission alone.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

The keepers have behaviours too! LOL
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Hahahahahahahahaahahhaahahahahahahahahahaaaaaahhhhhahahahahahahaha!
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Todd Hughes

OUCH!!! LMAO
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I love this place since FR started posting. We all owe him a great deal of gratitude. In the end, after some time passes by!

Whenever he posts something this place explodes and people are actually THINKING. Amazing posts by FR and cudos to FR!

Hmmmmmmmmmmm how funny, oh wait, that must be condensending.

Let me start over, you agree with me, but do not want me to bring it up. hmmmmmmmm

Oh wait, its not the newbies that are fighting with me, is it????? Its die hard folks that keep defending mediocre caresheet husbandry.

Wait, again your post is not about snakes, or what you think should be done, or could be done. But all about people and people things. Good on U Cheers

Good Post!

Why not give them the BASIC choices they make in nature. As in a range of temps instead of a TEMP.

This to me is, heck I have no words for it. All field workers KNOW that reptiles use a full range of temps, yet in captivity people offer, 84.6535342F, then wonder why you have problems. Hmmmmmmmmm

Then state, my conditions are good, because they are what I was told to do. Not good because it allows the animal to prosper.

Again, many here recognize that different species have slighly different temp choices. Consider, all these species will prosper just fine in a simple range of temps.

So yes, forgive me to sticking up for the reptiles. Cheers

the better question is when do we or when should we treat?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

My personal belief is to treat only on a case by case basis and as a last resort. These medications aren't vitamins. My biggest issue is people treating prophylactically, which too many do without a second thought & purposely introducing toxins to my animals "just in case" isn't a good plan in my eyes.

I've been fortunate in my 20+ years of keeping snakes (a baby still compared to most of you I know) to not have felt that I had to treat my snakes for parasites, but if it was a dire situation I would. The lesser of two evils. Otherwise I feel & agree that a lot of this can be rectified through husbandry.

"Last resorts" are generally in poor shape, their parasite level leaving them completely out of whack. Killing the parasites within the body then only creates more problems as their decomposition creates blood problems. Hence the arguement for treating for parasites BEFORE they become a life/death problem.

I am sorry, but parasite amplification only occurs when the snake is kept in unhealthy conditions. If you allow them the conditions they REQUIRE, they rid themselves of parasites very quickly.

As you should know,I believe most parasites have an intermediate host, and that is missing in captivity.

The point is, I do not treat for parasites and have had EXTREMELY good success. Which is why I ask the question in the first place.

I believe you are stuck in a system of husbandry that allows your animals to suffer. Again, wild snakes do not have a problem. My snakes do not have a problem. Yet, you believe yours do.

Explain that????? Cheers

"I am sorry, but parasite amplification only occurs when the snake is kept in unhealthy conditions. If you allow them the conditions they REQUIRE, they rid themselves of parasites very quickly.

As you should know,I believe most parasites have an intermediate host, and that is missing in captivity."

Frank that response represents a profound misunderstanding of the problem.

Parasite amplification occurs in the captive ENVIRONMENT not specifically in the actual animal. This causes two conditions:

1) where the environment is so contaminated that healthy animals are continually re-infected. This is important where an intermediate host is not required. Example mites, you find them you better treat for them because support alone wont do the trick.

2) when the environment becomes highly contaminated (as with worm eggs) such that it becomes a danger to the keeper. Last time I checked most captive king snakes eat and are kept by warm blooded organisms and can themselves be intermediate hosts for parasites that affect their keeper. Like I said before if you keep critters in isolation and don’t want to treat, fine, have at it but if you sell or trade your animal’s ethics require that you address any known parasitic infections. If you can’t get over that little truth you need to stop breeding and selling reptiles!

And again please stop assuming you know what is going on with my collection! I can’t remember the last time I had to treat for parasites. This is on only because I support my animals well but also because I buy from responsible breeders who treat whenever parasitic infections are in evidence.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

tsk,tsk tony,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tom you know this line of reaosning is bull yet you enable it.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

no tony i accept it as fact. support any snake/reptile properly in all aspects and you will not need to treat for internal parasites. how do you think they deal with these parasites in nature? is it perhaps they are fully supported in ALL aspects? are you saying this cannot be acheived in captivity and must be regulated/controlled with drugs???
im sure the vet.industry will say so as will the drug companys that make them drugs for the vets to peddle. if i understand you its like sayin lets just rip out childrens teeth and replace them with dentures after al its doubtful they will be able to support the care they need to last a lifetime so lets fix it! or oh i know lets go to a forign land and innaculate primitive people after all its what they need to support themselves! aaaarrrrrhhhggg! do i need to get a bigger soapbox?
get real
,,,,,,,,thomas

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

First, get the grammar book back out and have at it. More importantly undersatand that SCIENCE has come a long way in dealing with these "problems" that occur in nature. It is responsible as keepers to keep our captives the best we can, and that "most of the time" includes proper medical care. While FR can tell us his snakes are kept "just like wild snakes" and are "in better shape"....it doesnt make it so. Again, UNQUANTIFIABLE, case closed. Your analogies are horrible, none hold water. Put another way, if your child has a parasitic disease would you want it dealt with in a natural/holistic way or would you want the best available 21st century medical care?? That is a proper analogy.

oh thank you for the grammer tip jeff ill get rite on it jus fer yuo. i apprecieate your opinonions and will log it in file 13.
thank you jeff! you bring so much to the forum
id be happy and proud to stand on FR's shoulders. yours, not so much to rikkety for me i prefer stability.
lets recap
wild snakes survive fine in nature yet when we cage them its your and apperently tony d's opinonion that we dose them with chemicals that they never would encounter in nature to "fix" them. i understand, rather than be held to account for husbandy methods lets "fix" it with drugs, whatever...
,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

My snakes act differently in captivity than they would in the wild so I medicate as needed.
Your snakes act "exactly" the do in the wild because of your UBER-setup, you have found a way to mimic planet earth on a small scale?? Pics would be nice,LMAO.
FR, we know the snakes WHISPER to him, he has em trained with free run of the house. Right now they are whispering"go get beer, we need more beer"....
Of these 3 who would anyone be more likely to believe? Exactly.

You seem to base your entire premise on the assumption that everything is honky-dory in the wild kingdom so I gotta ask one question, who said parasites don't contribute to mortality of wild populations?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

no tony im not assuming anything. fact is snakes live and die in the natural world all the time from a plethora of things including parasites, nature is hard.
but there is a balance and natural pops deal with parasites without chemicals and so can our captives when properly supported.
,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Where is that balance in captivity? Once removed from the wild, snakes are not exposed to all they would be exposed to in nature, including beneficial bacteria that might help them balance a parasite load. In the wild, they can move to different environs in order to suit their needs. They can only go so far in a tub, tank, or box of dirt.

It is impossible to truly re-create wild conditions in captivity. At least inside the home.
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Diego

SWCHR

Where is that balance in captivity?
ahhh the 64,000 dollar question...
Once removed from the wild, snakes are not exposed to all they would be exposed to in nature, including beneficial bacteria that might help them balance a parasite load. In the wild, they can move to different environs in order to suit their needs. They can only go so far in a tub, tank, or box of dirt.

It is impossible to truly re-create wild conditions in captivity. At least inside the home.
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hi diego,
perhaps we should provide more than a tub, tank, or box of dirt. we do not need to recreate wild conditions for our captives in order to support them properly. a simple large temp gradient will suffice imho
drugs are a bandaid the wound(parasites) is an indacator that the keepers husbandry is at fault. drugs cannot fix that no more than a bandaid fixes a wound.
it takes support.
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

And one I agree with.
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Diego

SWCHR

If parasites are the wound and meds are a band-aid....
Are you saying somehow snakes in the wild heal these wounds with simple temp gradients? Not likely.
Johnson and Johnson have done pretty well for themselves selling band aids---maybe someone can learn from their success??HMMMMMMMMMM

>>>Are you saying somehow snakes in the wild heal these wounds with simple temp gradients?
man are you thick, YES thats what im sayin!!!
,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Holistic approaches with people and animals can be improved upon, this isnt the 19th century. Name calling wont make you more right.

your makin me C R A Z Y jeff...

Holistic approaches with people and animals can be improved upon, this isnt the 19th century. Name calling wont make you more right.

this topic has NOTHING TO DO WITH HOLISTIC APPROACHES!

aaaaarrrrrrrrhhhhgggggggg!
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I am equating your temp modification for parasites to a prayer to heal a broken leg......there are better ways to handle the problem, why cant you see that? The guy/company who invented these drugs didnt do it to make a $Million but to find a better solution to fixing the problem. I dont think it responsible for you to recommend inferior methods, please justify it without name calling if you can....

PRAYER???? Not even close, its more like equating it to being a healthy human, you know getting exercise, eating healthy ect. If you do those things you don't need drugs, (only psychedelics! for mental health and some real religion! HAHAHAHHA) No seriously THEY are REPTILES, dude you talk about knowing basic anatomy, how about learning basic REPTILE physiology.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

what inferior methods have i suggested jeff? name one inferior method i have suggested. put up or shut up.
i totally agree with FR captives dont need chemicals to rid themselves of natural endoparasites, if they did how are they able to survive in the wild?HOW??? answer me that mr. biologist. oh and about name calling??? i havent called you names jeff? i played a beatles tune in your honor sorry if it offended, personally id be flattered, wtf? i thought this was the "locker room" and you werent suppossed to get upset isnt/wasnt that your advise to a guy in the milk forum just recently? , HA what a joke.
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

what inferior methods have i suggested jeff? name one inferior method i have suggested. put up or shut up.
i totally agree with FR captives dont need chemicals to rid themselves of natural endoparasites, if they did how are they able to survive in the wild?HOW??? answer me that mr. biologist. oh and about name calling??? i havent called you names jeff? i played a beatles tune in your honor sorry if it offended, personally id be flattered, wtf? i thought this was the "locker room" and you werent suppossed to get upset isnt/wasnt that your advise to a guy in the milk forum just recently? , HA what a joke.
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Thomas, the premise of the thread supported by you and others is that its better to regulate parasites with temps than medication, right? Now I dont want to put words in your mouth, but that is correct?? FR first says he doesnt use chemicals to rid endoparasites THEN says he routinely uses flea and tick powder....so which is it? ONE of those things isnt true, I am just pointing it out.
Because a snake exists in the wild doesnt make it 1000% healthy, and if our captive breeding attempts have taught us anything its that we CAN IMPROVE the overall health of our captives. Now that we know we can, logic would inject that into this arguement to ask if we SHOULD....of course we should.
Telling me to get a clue and calling me names and playing Beatles songs....for what? You take this personal, all I am trying to do is to let others see the OBVIOUS dichotomous nature of the poster and the thread. If you dont believe me please just reread the whole thread.

>>>FR first says he doesnt use chemicals to rid endoparasites THEN says he routinely uses flea and tick powder....so which is it? ONE of those things isnt true, I am just pointing it out.

ok are you off your meds? endo(inside) ecto(outside) mites would fall in the later catagory.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

he said neither endo nor ecto, how do you defend that?

when did this start to be a holistic approach to medical issues, Thomas isn't saying use herbal remedies and teas, lol! He is saying the snakes don't medicate themselves and we do not agree that they need to be in reference to parasites. C'mon Jeff, this isn't rocket science, if you have a cold, do you go out and play in the snow???!!!
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Todd Hughes

Using your analogy, If I wanted to play in the snow I would certainly be taking some NYQUIL/equivalent. For some of us, "not playing in the snow" is not an option. For most of us meds are a great way to both cover up and fix inherint problems. You say fix the problem, make the cage bigger, have more micro climates etc...I say having all that still wont guaranttee me healthy snakes so why bother.
I will go one step further, I do find there are some snakes that ADAPT to my way of doing things better than others. These are the snakes that I like to keep and breed and I suggest their offspring are more tolerant to these conditions...correct? As generations go by our captives are now bigger, have bigger babies,etc....I know of guys who breed coastal plains milks and only feed them mice(those that prefer lizards are out of luck and usually die or are fed off). Why not choose such qualities in our CB efforts as well as other factors?? In FRs terms, these MUTE snakes are easier for all of us to "Listen" to...

>>>You say fix the problem, make the cage bigger, have more micro climates etc...I say having all that still wont guaranttee me healthy snakes so why bother.

with that attitude you shouldnt even own ANY animal,thats really really sad. with such an attitude imho you should collect non living things.
why bother! why bother! why bother!
AAAAARRRRRHHHGGGG!
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, you and I and everyone on this forum who keeps snakes and everyone in the history of keeping snakes HAS COMPROMISED the snakes' lifestyle simply by keeping it. Your arguement has to get to that point, and then we can have a domestic animal discussion(eliminating FR,lol). And from that arguement, do you think that heartworm medication for dogs is a good idea or can you affect that parasite with temperature change????? These are logical arguements, and to quote Jim Calhoun"get some facts and come back and see me".

>>>do you think that heartworm medication for dogs is a good idea or can you affect that parasite with temperature change????? These are logical arguements

no jeff you have gone WAAAAY off somewhere that i simply cannot grasp. there is NOTHING logical in your above statement what so ever. nothing at all.
temp. change isnt affecting the parasite in reptiles either jeff temps/choices among other things allow the health of the reptile to to effect the parasite, its called checks and balances, get a clue.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, you can go back and read the premise of the thread--that proper temps eliminate the need to medicate. LOGIC, gathering facts to make a pointed arguement, made me bring up the heartworm example. I dont think you can argue that reptiles arent suseptable to similar parasites affecting different systems. I never said you should medicate for no reason, and many times by the time it gets to a vet medication is of little use. All I have tried to say is that NO ONE keeps their snakes perfectly(NO ONE!) and that its a good thing that meds are available and use them when necessary. To advise against the use of meds in the recovery process in every case is wrong. Got your clue, thanks.

>>>To advise against the use of meds in the recovery process in every case is wrong. Got your clue, thanks.

nope you missed it completely.
if the care is there initially there is nothing to recover from! , oh nevermind.
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"Why do people treat for parasites", it assumes parasites to begin with.

Viagra for snakes! That will solve everyone's problems. LOL!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

The physiology should be the same, dosed correctly I can see some experimentation in this area in the not too distant future....at least with the guys with the prescription already...YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!! LMAO You thought you had a problem with your dog humping your leg til you give Viagra to a big Retic, ROFLMAO!

Did you really just say why provide choices for snakes in the same post that you made reference to FR? If there is one thing I've learned over the years and find hard to beleive that you haven't, it is that snakes do better PERIOD when provided with choices like a temp and humidity ranges.
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Randy Whittington

np

I wanted to add that my post has nothing what so ever to do with taking anyones side but to say why bother is ..... well ridiculous.
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Randy Whittington

Randy, I think it obvious that we cant mimic the wild in captivity. So I said "why bother", and I suggest that we can IMPROVE these conditions and that we have. Please dont let that phrase get taken out of context.

Sorry Jeff, but there is something loose in your head. We cannot mimic nature you say, hahahahahahahaha

There is no need to mimic nature, what your suppose to mimic is the conditions that support their success in nature.(your suppose to avoid conditions that lead to failure, nature or otherwise) We are very basic conditions. From temp choices and humidity choices, as these are reptiles, too a basic prey type. Then if you have some ability, you can support some basic behavior that these animals exhibit. You can also support basic life events. That is, a life cycle. From egg to egg, so to speak. Again you can support all manner of natural behaviors. Hmmmmmmmmm As a biologist you must consider, all their behaviors are natural, want to discuss that one? Cheers

OK,FR, I am going to try and interpret this....its not easy, if someone speaks "FR" correct me if I am wrong...

Sorry Jeff, but there is something loose in your head. We cannot mimic nature you say, hahahahahahahaha

FR-We will see who laughs----

There is no need to mimic nature, what your suppose to mimic is the conditions that support their success in nature.

FR-I think you meant to say "there is no need to mimic nature, what you are supposed to mimic are the conditions that support the animal's success". I think you took my half sentence out of context from someone else's thread, please quote the whole thing before you pass judgement.

(your suppose to avoid conditions that lead to failure, nature or otherwise) We are very basic conditions. From temp choices and humidity choices, as these are reptiles, too a basic prey type.

FR- I think you mean"You are supposed to avoid conditions that lead to failure"--nature or otherwise makes no sense."We are basic conditions"????? The rest of this is gibberish. "Too a basic prey type"???? You gotta help me out with the English here.

Then if you have some ability, you can support some basic behavior that these animals exhibit.

FR-I have NO IDEA what you mean by "support some basic bahavior", this makes NO SENSE in this context. Sounds like you were trying to be tricky with English and got caught up somewhere. Or simply trying to be condesceding again.

You can also support basic life events. That is, a life cycle.
From egg to egg, so to speak.

FR-I think what you are saying is that "if you keep animals well then they reproduce"--but I could be wrong,lol. Still trying to put it all together to try and see the point you are trying to make.

Again you can support all manner of natural behaviors.

FR-HUH???? What does THAT mean??LMAO!!

Hmmmmmmmmm As a biologist you must consider, all their behaviors are natural, want to discuss that one? Cheers

FR-Glad to, it has nothing to do with me being a biologist, nothing in this thread does-why bring it up?? All their behaviors in captivity IS NOT natural, if you think it is YOU are making an interpretation of an event....and therefore BIAS. Behavior in NATURE is NATURAL BEHAVIOR, behavior in captivity is CAPTIVE behavior. One could easily argue that NATURAL behavior isnt the ideal for those of us that want to KEEP(not study)reptiles, that CAPTIVE behavior can in fact IMPROVE immune systems as well as other physiological systems. Yes, this is open to interpretation as well.
As we keep reptiles generation after generation we CHANGE them, there is no getting around that. We can change their life cycles by changing the temp/humidity....there is NOTHING NATURAL about that. And because we CAN do this does not mean that the animal is somehow "programmed" to do this. Each generation, shoot each SEASON we can adjust conditions, and with every changed event the "natural" behavior becomes less and less.
MY POINT, not that you cared for it, was that you "cant see the forest for the trees". You keep animals that are CB several generations, and you are examining behavior daily. You interpret this behavior well, and are successful keeping and breeding. Guess what?? I also keep the same animals, I do it MY way(without worrying about individual behavior), and guess what?!?! I am successful keeping and breeding as well! What does this mean??
1-there are LOTS of ways to keep and breed
2-individual behavior isnt all that important-manage conditions
3-you are trying to make a point and I have no idea what that is

wow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIsou0IRIQU
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

but they also die and so will captive animals. No denying that support plays a huge role but it isn't the end all to be all. I could keep beating this drum and eventually you Retites will acknowledge the point that sometimes you need to treat and make a big hubabaloo about how I've been the absolutist all along. That bait is getting stale.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

No denying that support plays a huge role but it isn't the end all to be all.

i disagree, support is not a huge role but THE role in captivity.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Heres some news for you, not only am I not talking about YOU, or your collection, I do not care about you or your collection.

"I believe you are stuck in a system of husbandry that allows your animals to suffer."

nuff said
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

No sir, not enough said, if thats not true, and I could be wrong, explain why and how I am wrong.

Again, you are the one whos absolute. Yes or no is all you understand, or so it appears.

All I am asking is, why are snakes that are supported with a good temp range(all other conditions being equal) not in need of basic health care, that is, no upper resp. no mouthrot, no parasite problems, etc.

Again, you take my statements as absolute. When I am asking a question. WHY DON"T MY SNAKES HAVE PARASITE PROBLEMS? See what I mean. Cheers

Why not treat for parasites? Its cheap, it gives people peace of mind, and it eliminates something that could possibly hurt our snakes.

I know that it is not mandatory. I used to work in retail with lots of fresh imports, captive bred stuff that was piled 3 feet deep, ect. I hardly ever treated anything! And had almost no die offs. You have obviously had similar experiences. I still maintain that while supporting their immune system is the most important, why not give them all the help we can to be as healthy as possible.

A few other things to think about...

In the wild, complex ecosystems of parasites and other internal fauna keep each other in check. If I were to just get a single new pathogenic species in my (relatively) clean collection right now it could easily spread to unnatural levels. Also most of us don't only keep kings. Parasites that do nothing to your wild caught kingsnake my destroy your boa constrictor.

You said something else that I don't think is true. I don't believe that the vast majority of captive bred herps are dewormed. Its to costly to vax cheap animals and if they don't show signs then why bother? Are you talking about pet owners doing it themselves, or large scale deworming at pet shops and wholesalers?

At the moment I have never de-wormed a single snake in my entire collection. I have run multiple fecals on all of them and have never found a single sign of parasites. That of course does not mean that they aren't there, it just means that their levels are so low they are undetectable.

I agree that the average Joe has no need to yearly deworm all his snakes like you would with a horse or dog. But if there is any doubt about the health or immuno-competancy then why not? It can't hurt.

...........Turn the question around, I thought you were going to ask what would frank do if he found out that he had a giant parasite in his intestine. Regards, Rusty

I imagine you have a point, it does not hurt, so lets do it. Hmmmmmmmmm.

Again, I keep and breed all sorts of reptiles and have for over 40 years, and never have these problems your thinking your preventing. Thats why I ask these silly questions. Yet many particularly the new, concentrate on these types of things, when surely they could spend their time and money on something with an actual BENEFIT. As opposed to something that may not hurt.

I will question that. Not with kings, but with varanids. We experienced a high level of ovarian problems with varanids that were treated(most likely over treated) for parasites. A few Vets, said they saw similar things and question the use(over use) of many common drugs for parasites.

Please understand, its not actually the drugs or the parasites. Its more about the over use of these drugs. Its common for exporters to randomly treat captives they have to hold until the quotas open up. Then the importers treat them. Then the Jobbers, then the shop, etc. So I do not believe its a problem with properly treated animals, more about the over use or misuse of these drugs.

The problem did not arise until someone was actually going to breed these animals. If that did not occur the monitors were fine. On the otherhand, captive bred non treated individuals did not experience these problems. Also consider this was over many hundreds of clutchs of many species.

I am not a believer of doing something because it does no harm. Considering by not treating them, we experienced no problems either.

Of course, if you have purchased a compromised individual snake, then TAKE IT TO A VET. But to treat animals because it does no harm. I do question that. You should not recomend treating a healthy animal. And treating because it does no harm is treating a healthy animal.

I get the feeling your falling into the questionable Vet paradign. You know, treat it, just treat it. How about allow the snakes to fix themselves. They do you know.

I think we should explore the natural abilities snakes(reptiles) have to heal themselves. Just today, I photographed a wild FREE ROAMING Desert tort, thats missing an eye. Like, its gone. I wonder who treated it? I have seen three kings with their backs broken and healed in at least 7 places and they were fully HEALED. Cheers

1) I agree, treating parasites is a bandaid, not a cure for an ill snake. Proper husbandry is clearly the issue at heart. No one is arguing that. That does not mean that dewormers don't have their place.

2)It is the sad truth that their is not enough information about drug side effects in reptiles. I am very hesitant to give any reptile any drug under any circumstance if I can avoid it.

3) I think you are projecting your opinion (probably well founded) of vets onto me. Vets see a disproportionate number of problems and it leads them to be overly concerned. Most also come from a medical background first and a herp back ground second. I take pride that that is not me. I do not believe you should deworm healthy snakes. I never said that. I believe you should check snakes, to fully understand the parameters that your captives snakes are living in. I have never dewormed my snakes, but I run regular fecals on them. Just below I recommended a guy not treat his healthy snake. My parasitology professor would probably disagree.

Cheers

Zach said, 1) I agree, treating parasites is a bandaid, not a cure for an ill snake. Proper husbandry is clearly the issue at heart. No one is arguing that. That does not mean that dewormers don't have their place.
This is exactly what I am getting at, why didn't you start with this responce? Of course dewormers have a place, why not discuss what that place is?????

Zach said, 2)It is the sad truth that their is not enough information about drug side effects in reptiles. I am very hesitant to give any reptile any drug under any circumstance if I can avoid it.

Again, You said, its truth that nots enough is known, so why with the "it doesn't hurt" statements from earlier?

Zach said3) I think you are projecting your opinion (probably well founded) of vets onto me. Vets see a disproportionate number of problems and it leads them to be overly concerned. Most also come from a medical background first and a herp back ground second. I take pride that that is not me. I do not believe you should deworm healthy snakes. I never said that. I believe you should check snakes, to fully understand the parameters that your captives snakes are living in. I have never dewormed my snakes, but I run regular fecals on them. Just below I recommended a guy not treat his healthy snake. My parasitology professor would probably disagree.

I am not projecting my opinion on vets or on this topic. I am questioning this based on my long experience with this subject, BASED on actual results. Which I believe what we are suppose to do on forums like these. Aren't we suppose to use our experience and results to discuss on all or any of these subjects???????????????????????????????????????????

Of course many of you flip out, I do not do what you do and I have a LONG history of success. The problem is, many here should at least get a chance to hear many sides to these and other subjects. No, the problem is, many here cannot accept, there are other, possibly better ways to keep snakes. Cheers

> No, the problem is, many here cannot accept, there are other, possibly better ways to keep snakes. Cheers <

Frank. I think there are a lot of folks here. Tony for example. Who try to get past how they do/have done things to possibly re-examine their thoughts on things. While I think it's normal for people to resist and chaffe a bit, I'm thinking their continued interaction isn't just about liking doing battle with you but also about trying to do what is right for their animals and I don't think you give folks enough credit sometimes. Most of the smart ones just lurk and don't want to risk ego/pride and be put in the spot light. Some folks who do respond put themselves at risk of looking stupid and that should say something for their wanting to do what's best for their animals.

Frank Your Answering questions with questions and being evasive about specifics is a tried and true method to get people to think and it's employed by all sorts of folks from DIs' to Yoda but I'm sure there were many a Jedi that thought to pull out the light sabre to go toe to toe with the master to get him to knock it off. Many others just went back to tatoine. I bet Yoda ate lunch by himself a lot. Even when guys like Zach try to make nice and see it your way they get bounced and then you wonder why folks get frustrated.

Maybe you could do. "Zach, I see your point but I have tried this and that over the years but I have found this works better because of this" Instead of wringing your hands at everyones sheer incompetence.

You are respected here by more than just the folks who like you and your insights are valued even by the folks that aren't real big fans.

Happy Herping. Hope I haven't offended. Bob
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Hi, heres the problem. I am not for everyone, I never thought I was. Keeping snakes is not for everyone.

You keep talking about ego and all such. Its my feeling and I have a right to my feelings, that our egos has no place with the keeping of living animals. So no, I do not bother with tenderfooting around peoples egos. I know, when I have a problem, or lose an animal, I DID SOMETHING WRONG. I AM AT FAULT. So I look at what happened and adjust. I have no ego, as the animal is ALWAYS RIGHT. After all, they are the subject, we are the keeper or observer.

Those that keep worrying about their egos have a long row to hoe. I feel sorry for their captive snakes.

Earlier you said, maybe we shouldn't keep snakes. That statement is sort of true, only more like this, some people should not keep live snakes. Particularly those that put their ego, their beliefs, there prejudices, and their oddball sweaterbox mentality, in front of the snakes actual needs.

In your case Bill, your cage does not reflect anything about an actual pyro. I know this because not only have I kept and bred them for years and years, they were also the subject of intense field study for equally as long. Yet, as long as your animals are progressing and healthy, its fine, not a problem. But when you do have a problem, don't go saying my cage or husbandry is perfect. Sir, that is the case here, my snake is bloating, not feeding, dying, etc etc, it HAS to be treated for parasites, etc etc, yet my husbandry is perfect. Sir, that is extreme ego. What happens to the animal is always a reflection of its husbandry. To believe what your thinking or were told, over the actual animal, is very egotistical.

And yes, I do not come and teach a technique, That would be the same as following a recipe. I only want YOU to think, to use your head, learn the ways and how comes, then exactly what you do is EASY and can be done in a zillion ways. You see, you WANT A WAY, but sir, there are a zillion ways. Learn what they want and pick one or more out of a zillion. How easy is that?????? Get that, "this is what you have to do thing" out of your head, instead start to think about what the animal actually is and actually is seeking. Consider, all these snakes are seeking a way to continue to exsist. To find in nature what will support a successful life, to hatch, to grow, to recruit, and to continue recruiting as long as possible. They all try to find that support in nature, many, if not most, fail. Why do they fail in captivity????? we have everything, don't we???

How about asking about the snakes, instead of peoples egos. Sir, I am far more interested in the snakes, and far less interested in the keepers egos. So if you want to be concerned about egos, good on you, you are not for me. Cheers

PS, I just had a thought, is this a forum about kingsnakes or a forum about kingsnake keepers?????????? an interesting thought hey?

>So if you want to be concerned about egos, good on you, you are not for me. Cheers <

Clearly I have ticked you off. That is unfortunate.

The name is BOB Frank. BOB. I take the time and make the effort to be respectful to you. The least you could do is try to get my name right. I know I'm not a snake but in the broad scheme of things I count too.

I would not have put the pic of my setup out there if I was not willing to recieve some critique. I thought and felt good about thinking I had incorporated some of your suggestions in a practical way.

You say you want folks to take proper care of their animals and it's a simple thing and there are a million ways to do it but not once have I ever seen you do anything but second guess anyones actions. If you ever said "that's it! Good on you!" I may have missed it.

You could alleviate all this looking down on other folks by just showing pics of how you presently keep the few Kings you keep these days so other folks could see how you think it should really be done. You may in fact not want to post pics because of not wanting folks to use your method as a "recipe" and not think for themselves and their animals. How sad that thousands of snakes would then be kept properly if you did.

I have to take what you say at face value Frank because only you know whats in your mind and I have to respect that.

I do realize though if you were to post your sweater box/cage perfect system that if everyone here had an oppurtunity to critique it here like you critique, you would have a lot further to fall than the rest of us.

Snakes are great Frank but people count too.I hope that fact doesn't escape your insightful mind.

I wouldn't ask you questions if I didn't think you knew what you are doing.

Later.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

C your worried more about my name or your name, who cares. I know I am weird, but if I met you, I would not forget your face and YOU. That is what is important to me. But all these letters(names) on the interent, do not mean too much to me. After all, are they the real people behind them? Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. But once I look into your eyes and touch you(shake your hand) I will know YOU. Not a bunch of letters.

You see, your name is not you either. You are you. Its almost the same as with the snakes, it does not matter what we call them, we are constantly changing their scientific names, the actual snake is still the snake it was before and after the name change. The name is meaningless to the snake.

There are people on here I know, I will start with the one I known the longest. Pastor Pat, I knew him since the sixties. There is something about that man, We hit it off and without doubt or question. If you look at us, it would not seem like we would. But we did, his feelings were honest and pure, we became friends without much in the way of talk. After not seeing him for decades, when I talk to him here, I still feel that same person. Then there is Forky, I met him in the seventies, hmmmmmm same thing, there was no need for words, we felt eachothers hearts and minds. Friends for life. We do not have to agree or be anything alike.

So I ask you, feel your animals heart and mind, feel it. I "feel" thats what your trying to do. Forget about the words, forget about science. Feel your captive. Learn about what it really is. Offer it things that are for it and not for YOU. Then your snakes will start to talk to you(how it uses those things), then you can listen. And yes, its all explainable with science. Well, at least with some science, as there are those in science that do not give credit to animals. They think they are a bunch of genes with no ability other then to react to instint.

No I do not think snakes are human, but they do have abilities, and instints and they can and do learn. Heck, your snakes are trying to LEARN how to live in your(our) cages and your(our) cages are nothing like nature, where their instints were honed. Cheers

I will also ponder these things Frank. Thanks.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Thanks Bob, thats all I could ever ask, to think. Cheers

Remember 2 things Bob:

1. Be the ball
2. Dont bogart the whole thing before passing
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God Bless Evolution.

>>>>This is exactly what I am getting at, why didn't you start with this responce? Of course dewormers have a place, why not discuss what that place is?????

OK so when have you used dewormers? If you get a snake that is underweight, has weird loose stool, and no history about the animal what would you do? Set it up properly and hope for the best? Set it up properly and run a fecal? Set it up properly and treat prophylacticly?

>>>Again, You said, its truth that nots enough is known, so why with the "it doesn't hurt" statements from earlier?

In truth your comment earlier was the very first potentially negative thing I have heard about using dewormers (aside from a few specific known problems). I consider them to be some of the most benign drugs out there. Many are not even absorbed by the body. I would love to hear more about how many monitors this happened to, what meds were used ect. Were the effects permanent or the year after deworming did they come back and breed? I am sure that over the years that you decided to stop treating you were also learning and adjusting your husbandry, what makes you think the problem was with the meds?

Cheers

]

Zach saidOK so when have you used dewormers? If you get a snake that is underweight, has weird loose stool, and no history about the animal what would you do? Set it up properly and hope for the best? Set it up properly and run a fecal? Set it up properly and treat prophylacticly?

No, I have never had a need to treat colubrids. not even transient male green rats. Early on, say thirtyfive years ago, I lost snakes. But, now, no. Overheating is a huge cause of parasite blooms. That is, not allowing snakes to cool. allowing decent temperture ranges is really what THEY DO. Its not a need thats only to bother keepers.

I ask you, how do wild snakes exsist with parasites when they are reinvested with EVERY meal??? Particularly such daily feeders as lizards. How sir??????

Zach said, In truth your comment earlier was the very first potentially negative thing I have heard about using dewormers (aside from a few specific known problems). I consider them to be some of the most benign drugs out there. Many are not even absorbed by the body. I would love to hear more about how many monitors this happened to, what meds were used ect. Were the effects permanent or the year after deworming did they come back and breed? I am sure that over the years that you decided to stop treating you were also learning and adjusting your husbandry, what makes you think the problem was with the meds?

As you said, there is little known on what these and other meds DO TO REPTILES. The point here is, we are working with reptiles. This goes for behavior too. Most behavioral models are with mammals. And of course do not apply to reptiles, YET reptiles DO HAVE A COMPLEX SOCIAL STRATEGY, unfortunately, there are not specific terms for reptiles. They are social, but clearly not mammmalian social. They DO utilize parental care, but surely not mammalian parental care. Etc.

Same with meds, which of these meds were developed specifically for reptile usage????? none you say???? I am trying to make a point.

Its a good thing snakes can and do cure themselves, or I would be in big trouble.

Not to pound history to death, but I have had many world first breedings with KINGSNAKES. That means they were with wildcaughts, and may I add, that did not have to be treated for anything. I would think you would ask why? Not ask me why, but why could the animals do that. Cheers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Treat for parasites FR?? The answer is simple, by the time they get to proper vet care many times the parasite load would be at a dangerous level and they would kill alot of imports(and lose alot of $$). So these suppressive treatments were needed to keep animals ALIVE long enough for the end user(you) to re-acclimate them. Instead of complaining about these treatments you could be thankful...think of how many of these animals would never have gotten to your hands without these treatments!
Now if you or others have continued these same practices for these next few DECADES....maybe something else could have been done. But for every bit of knowledge you or these jobbers or the vet field learns remember you are standing on the shoulders of those who went before you. Maybe you should have taken up these crusades years ago with the perpetrators not in a forum where most snakes are CB and almost all qualified breeders treat for parasites as a part of routine maintanence. Most will admit that there is no way to provide for every whim of every snake we keep when it needs it. Meds are tools we use to correct improper conditions, just as you can take a car to work rather than walking. Walking will keep you in better shape, less environmetally impactful,etc.....but the time we save is simply immeasurable.

Jeff, I know you know what they are saying but here's another way, you said meds are tools we use to correct improper conditions, why use meds when you can do it with a range of temps? Meds are really for vets not for newcomers to the hobby, some are more advanced in their keeping, it is easier to do this with temps than to hope you dose correctly, imho.
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Todd Hughes

Todd, I wonder if you realize what you are saying...if the conditions were proper to begin with there would be no need for either meds or changing temps. What I am saying is that with the limited size of caging, rooms, etc the individual attention each captive needs at every point in its life cycle gets compromised by EVERYONE including the holy thread starter,lol. Meds are tools that anyone can be trained to use, denial is not a river in Africa.....

Okay Jeff, i am not gonna get into this like that, I am not denying anything, I AM saying that with proper temps and humidity requirements met, the majority of snakes would never need meds, something they definitely wouldn't get out there, even if out there is not now in here. I take all advise and use it to form my own conclusions about what I believe is best for my charges. What I find best for my charges is to first do no harm, then provide the best home I can. This, for me, includes a base temp, a secure hide or two, a way for them to cool and heat and a place to seek humidity. I think most peoples' definition of keeping is different. Large scale breeders are not hobbyists are not herpetoculturists. Each have a way that serves them best. The difference here, I think, is what is best for the snake, not what is best for us. Those who keep large numbers maybe shouldn't keep so many until they can give their charges what they need not to survive but to thrive. I know you have had many successes and I know you have had some failures as well, we all have. When a persons ability to dispense meds gets to that level, one has to wonder why they needed the meds in the first place? if you recieve a sick snake, how do you know what to dispense? I really don't see how one man's opinions can get you guys so offended when you are allowed to counterpoint here. As for the deNile thing, I live on the Nueces, lol! Really, for me, meds are not something I would dispense to my charges, if it were to come to that, I would seek a vet. But parasite loads??? I know of a way to treat for that that is very efficient and cheap. Most of my collection consists of wild caughts, the speckled kings and Texas rats seem to have heavy loads coming in, flukes for the most part, but they evacuate them and in a short time with temps and humidity gradients, they shed them on their own. Quarantine is a must, and your choices for size of caging, etc., is, your choice.
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Todd Hughes

Each snake of each sex, of each species,etc has individual requirements that constantly change. We all do our best to care for every requirement all the time, and those who say they do it right every time are either fools or liars. My point I have argued in this thread is to USE every benefit you have at your disposal. FR says he doesnt medicate, but that he uses flea and tick repellant to avoid mites......do that math real quick. We all do our best and that is the point that is missing in this thread.

I got where we were talking about endoparasites not ectos on THIS thread, although not stated.
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Todd Hughes

Meds are tools we use to correct improper conditions,

yeah why not simply provide correct proper conditions IN THE FIRST PLACE JEFF?
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

We can provide artificial conditions, but there is no way anyone can ever provide stress-free conditions. Anyone saying they have 100% proper conditions is simply not telling the truth(hence no pics). They arent even providing THEMSELVES 100% proper conditions, never mind their family or captives.

thanks, but i disagree.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

What can you disagree with?? That its impossible to mimic exact needs of wild animals(millions of years of evolution you have somehow bottled and kept secret)??? FR must have home range data right? Maybe thats the size of your cages?? And you know that pheremones, lack of contact with other animals or its environment arent necessary in providing for "proper" keeping??? Want me to go on? Geez, are you tired of me being right yet??

no

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

While it may not be possible to duplicate outside inside, anyone can do far better than a shoebox on a shelf. Do you provide a warm spot? bet you do. A hide or two? bet you do. Milks are your bag, yes? Humidity isn't an issue at all with these? And if you raise them in groups, you are providing something else they need to thrive. No one i know is interested in keeping snakes to survive but to thrive. All we are saying is there are better ways to do this than shotgunning all the snakes when they come in to "prevent" or kill parasites, I am talking about endos. Most of this is about the keeper, not the kept.
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Todd Hughes

"Geez, are you tired of me being right yet??"

SURE! You the MAN!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Frank..thanks for another way to THINK about the parasite issue..i have read about the amplification of parasites in captive animals probably 25 years ago and it made good sense.I never questioned that or thought further on the matter until now.It was like I read it, after a while it became internalized and it became part of my belief system never to be challenged.My thinking became rigid.
Rick

this is a different rick d than the one who posted earlier in the thread

I don't treat my current snakes with anything but when I kept rosy boas for yars Flagyl saved a lot of lives. As you know rosy boas regurge quite eaily and the Flagyl seemed to fix the problemwherever it was coming from.

I agree. I used to never treat anything for parasites. Most of the snakes I've caught have done well in captivity. Recently I've gotten some fresh caught snakes that were underweight, and I made sure to treat those, and they seem to be gaining weight well as a result. I'm going to try to deworm most of my collection this year. If they have parasites, the parasites are getting some of the nutrients my snakes are taking in. I like feeding snakes, not worms.

after my wife took parasitology that I probably have parasites. LOL! I told her that I know for sure I got something when I lived in FL cause I kept itching, lol it eventually went away, but I'm kept in good conditions. HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

after my wife took parasitology that I probably have parasites. LOL! I told her that I know for sure I got something when I lived in FL cause I kept itching, lol it eventually went away, but I'm kept in good conditions. HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

That was a good one. I needed a good laught this morning.

The first thing I was taught(or I listened too) was, not only do all of us have parasites, but our parasites have parasites. For some reason, that gave me comfort and all was well. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Cheers

I was carrying a parasitic load for 10 years. It was female and weighed in at 120 pounds. It ate big holes in my right posterior wallet, long after the actual parasite was gone, and still gnawa at me every now and again.

Howie, did you get wormed? LOL, you are too much, or maybe just enough!
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Todd Hughes

I have heard of that one. Hope I never get it. I too am a "host" to a parasite, but we seem to work together for the moment. The cure for that one is lawyersite, given weekly, and is VERY expensive I have heard.

LOL, sorry to hear that I hope I don't catch that one!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

HA HA HA HA! That is awesome Howie, the funniest stuff I've heard (read) all day. Thanks buddy.

Will

I don't have the experience of Frank, but I would think the difference lies in the fact that these are "captive" animals.

Try as hard as you want, we can never offer a snake the ability to roam as it would in the wild. Even though you say you may catch the same snake for years with in the same small area that does not mean it does not wander. I personally have never found a snake in the wild with feces with in a foot radius.

Shed parasites (released in their feces) in a small enclosure can do more damage to the snake then it would in the wild where the snake is not so closely located next to the feces.

I use aspen bedding, I spot clean my animals daily, I never leave food items over night, yet in the summer I still get those annoying carrion flies or hump back flies.

I think the limited surface area and the enclosed environment intensifies the effects of the parasites.

Personally I have never treated any animals for parasites, but I only bring captive bred animals into my collection and always quarantine new animals.
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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

I think the same applies to external parasites like ticks and mites, which can overcome a captive snake but live symbiotically on a wild snake.

Have you ever had a snake with mites?

Tim

Timmmmmm. havnt we all at one time or another had mites this kind of question is offensive and hopefully was not to slash the credability of the questionee...AMF -adios my freind....cheers and be happy