Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Edit: I tried to post this this AM, but the site wasn't working. I have since put 6 hours into cleaning, disinfecting, scrubbing, boiling..... everything from the snake to the carpet underneath my cages. You advise will be appreciated, even though i am finished. i just hope i did it right and don't wake up to any more fatalities. Since, here is what i had typed

this AM I got up like I do every morning to check on the critters, and found my scarlet King dead. I noticed a few days ago that he had turned awefully milky, but I figured he was getting ready to shed, then today he was just dead. upon inspection, I have discovered that he had mites. I am kicking myself for not noticing, but more importantly, I need to treat my other snakes (I have 5 others in the same room). I checked my T-Lav Brooks in a cage nearby, and found one mite on her as well.

So far, I have cleaned out the infected cage with 10:1 bleach and windex. I am on my way to WalMart to pick up some spray that i heard is the equivalent to prevent-a-mite. My question is this: how do I treat them? I plan to take each animal one at a time, plce them in the cleaned cage, dump all the bedding and treat the cage. How much spray do i use (sizes: 29T, 20L, 15L, 10). How long do i let it sit in the cage, and how do i clean out the spray or will it evaporate on it's own? Also, do I apply it directly to the snake as well? How long before I put it back in the tank?

Thanks in advance. For the hell of it, here are pics of my unfortunate find this AM

Here he is a week ago

a setup similar to his

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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

Mites ususlly dont kill snakes so Im not sure why the scarlet died.
You have to get rid of the natural substrate and just use white paper towels for a few weeks.That way you will be able to see if you have mites.

One good way to clean your tanks,bowls etc is to get a 50 gal garbage can .fill it with water and soak the tubs/tanks and any other stuff for a few days.That will kill the mites w/o chemicals.Get ride of any hides made of wood.
I have used those pest strip things placed in a film container with holes punched in it and placed in a clean tank with the snake.That killed the mites on the snake w/o having to contact the snake.
Dilute Listerine bath works too
http://www.triciaswaterdragon.com/mitetick.htm#mites

How /where did you get the mites? Did you get a pet store snake?
Where you handling someones snakes?,When ever you handle others snakes aways wash your hands and maybe even change your cloths before you go to your collection unless you know that person well
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

I added a new snake to my collection a couple months ago, and like an a$$, I didn't quarantine it. Someone suggested they could have come in on aspen, but I only buy sealed bags of it. I haven't handled another snake outside my collection of six in a very, very long time.

I am at a loss. That was my favorite snake, and i should have been more aware. it was my intentional "letting him be his reclusive self" that kept me from handling it very often. In hindsight, that could have been it's demise. There were a LOT of mites in the paper towel I wrapped him in before throwing it in the freezer. I originally thought it might have been compaction, but when I took it out of the freezer to show my daughter, that is when I noticed the "crawlers"
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

Keep a eye on your water bowls.Thats where you will see mites.Snakes use water to rid themselves of mites by drowning them.Get rid of all that "natural" setting stuff it really isn't natural and you cant monitor the tank.
Where did you get the new snake?
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

a breeder friend who I trust and even called for the remedy. If they were on her when i got her, i didn't see them and I'm sure he wouldn't have given her to me like that. I really don't blame anyone but myself for not quarantining the snake as I have heard people suggest time and time again here.

I did add some moss (that compressed block type moss), and was wondering if mites can travel in substrate?
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

What kind of snake was it you recently got from your friend? Examine closely, put all on paper towels, you will be able to see them. Give clean water bowls and examine the bowls daily, if the snakes are soaking, they probably have mites. I usually spray the entire cage, let it sit for an hour, rinse well and reset. I know mites can travel in substrate, it is really hard to see them in wood, and bark chips. I would house the snakes (all of them) in small tupperwares for a week on paper towels and nuke the cages. If it is sunny out, put the cages in direct sunlight, that will fry them. You will need to retreat the snakes a week later to catch any eggs that hatched. the second go around will get them all. be very careful with the product you use, Provent a Mite (PAM) is specifically for reptiles and I haven't had any problems with using it, the other products may not have specific instructions for reptiles. Plus, you can spray it on a washrag or paper towel and let the snake crawl through it, being careful not to get it on its face. I had them once about seven years ago and have never been re-infected, knock on paper towels, lol. You really got to watch it with lots of cage furniture and deep natural type substrate. I would use it, but when you clean the cages, be prepared to thoroughly clean more often, washing with diluted bleach or warm soapy water is great, but sun kills all nasties eventually, I leave the tanks out all day. Good luck and sorry for your loss, at least you are on top of it now.
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Todd Hughes

I have eliminated natural substrate and replaced with paper towels. After a week or so, i will go back to aspen, but reduce the amount significantly. This is how i treated the enclosures today:

1) sprayed with hot water
2) soaked in 10:1 bleach
3) windexed and dried
4) sprayed with "Equate" (Wal-Mart bedding spray for lice, 0.50% permethrin)
5) sprayed with hot water again
6) windexed and dried again
7) everything that fit into a large pot was then boiled again to rid any residue
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

As mentioned above, ONCE, hahahahahaha. Mites normally do not kill snakes. They can, but there would be so many of them, you could not see the snake anymore. Also, by the time mites bloom, your snakes would be crawling upside down, staying in the water, etc.

Also, mites are so easy to get rid of, particularly with so few snakes. The easy way is go down to your local supermarket, find the pet section and by some hartz mountain flea and tick powder for cats. Sprinkle some in each cage, and your done. Used that method for over 40yrs. Althought I admit, here in Az. mites are not a problem, TOOOOO DRY. I have lived in other states, with humidity.

Also, there are more kinds of mites, then just snake mites. Many moist natural cages get WOOD mites. Snake mites, dark brown/black, wood mites, lite brown and smaller.

Again as mentioned mites are most likely not what killed your snake. So what killed it? that is what your suppose to be concerned with. This time of year, and in a open type cage, I would look at dehydration. Dehydration compromises the kidneys, then after the snake becomes active(starts to warm up) the kidneys fail. The dehydration event was most like during the winter.

If your really interested, have a vet take a look, do not freeze the snake, cool it. Cheers

It shouldn't have been dehydration, as I have a water dish, a second water dish located over the UTH for evaporative humidity, and a small plot of moss that I kept damp. I actually wondered if I had upper the humidity too high (even though his favorite hide was always kept dry)? I included the pics to see if anyone thought he was impacted. His hind end did not feel distended, although it looked wider to my naked eye.
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

I am sorry, water dishes do not prevent dehydration. In fact, they cause it, hmmmmmmmmm kinda.

Snakes are not designed to lose water through their skin, like we are(its just us and horses you know). So with them, dehydration is caused by drinking water and losing it through the skin, this causes a buildup of uric crystals, also known as gout. This can be viseral or skeletal, if longterm.

Shorterm extreme dehydration causes these crytals to form in the kidneys, which causes them to fail. Which causes a otherwise healthy snake to die.

You must consider, healthy snakes do not DIE. They are killed. Your snake appeared healthy. So what killed it? Was it sick(diseased)? did it do anything to tell you it was sick? Or was it simply dead? hmmmmmmmmmm its trying to tell you something and you do not want to listen. TAKE IT TO A VET, if your really interested. If you just want to blame mites to make you feel better, go for it. Again, mites do not kill snakes, mites can transmitt disease, which takes time and causes symtoms.

Back to dehydration, If you have a open top, screen, perforated, etc. The air raises UP and takes humidity with it. The cooler dry air, from your house which is VERY dry in the winter, drops in. If you have any type of heat source, it will warm the air (faster) up and out it goes again, taking humidity with it.

With snakes, its not the problem it is with other reptiles like monitors or turtles. Yes, the turtle people understand, you can dehydrate a turtle, IN A TANK OF WATER, so they recomend covering the tops in the winter and when in an air conditioned room(also drys out the air) REMEMBER, these are turtles in the water.

Back to you, you can easily tell which snakes are prone to this, thick skinned snakes like rattlesnakes or watersnakes, can withstand some air movement. Thin skinned snakes like wormsnakes or scarlet kings, cannot. Althougth, all species, even thick skinned rattlesnakes, avoid being dried out.(exposure to dry air)

Again, just an idea for you to consider, take it or leave it. Cheers

Though I do have a screen-top lid, for the last 2 months I have kept 90% or more covered with a towel to keep in warmth and moisture. Not offering an arguement, just trying to figure out the cause. There are no real repti-vets in lexington, but maybe I can take it to U. Kentucky?

Here is a pic taken 2 weeks ago right after a shed and just prior to a meal.

As I said, about 4 days ago it went milky as though in pre-shed. two days later it was dead. Even after it went milky, it kept it's same ornery disposition trying to eat my hand. The only difference noted was the milkiness. All other behaviors were the same.
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

word for thought ,That is a towel is a moisture absorber where as plstic is more of a shell of humidity...more often than not mites attack a snake in shed..........according to what you said.its kinda like rice in a salt shaker....give your snake a big enough water bowl to drown the the problem......

thats unfortunate. very pretty, and LARGE sk.
a very safe effective alternative to toxins to rid mites especially in such a setup is diatamascous earth.(spelling?) sprinkled in bottom layer, good stuff and very safe.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

is that the same stuff used in pool filters of old? Isn't that stuff a skin and lung irritant? where do you get it, and how much is used?
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

any feed store should carry it i would not use the pool supply DE it has additional chemicals added to it for the pool.
get food grade DE its great stuff and very very safe i dust my dogs with it as well as the chicken coup, many people ingest it daily as well, and yes you should avoid breathing it, basically it is fossilized plankton. all natural and VERY effective ,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

OK, I am interested. is there a rule of thumb as far as how much to add? What does it actually do? does it prevent, kill or both?
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

i sprinkle a layer on floor of cage then add bedding. it is like a valley of razors to ectoparasites, it cuts and then dehydrates them, google food grade DE and research it.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It suffocates them by plugging up their breathing holes. Cheers

diatomaceous earth absorbed the waxy layer on the surface of insect skins (up to four times its weight) causing dehydration and death.

Also if you're going to plug this stuff tell the whole story. There are several types of DE. Use only the food-grade type. It should be labeled Generally Regarded As Safe(GRAS). Do not use swimming-pool grade DE. This form is not effective and may also contain high levels of crystalline silica, which can cause problems (silicosis). All forms of diatomaceous earth are abrasive to the lungs and eyes, so personal protection when using this product should be considered.

I've found this product to be most effective on shelving and floors to prevent the spread of mites or any other bug or spider in my snake room. It also works great for those nasty little flies when dusted on surfaces they might land on. It has been my experience that it is not very effective as a direct treatment for mites. Perhaps due to higher cage humidities? In any case for that I use provent-a-mite as directed. I've found that two consecutive treatments will completely eradicate the little nasties!

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, he did specify food grade.
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Todd Hughes

Yes Tom did.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I am not plugging any stuff, I do not and will not use any DE, I have no need to.

First, we rarely get mites here, its to dry, second, I have a cure that I have used for over 40 years, it works without complications, its easy, and no harm has ever occurred from using it. Cheers

This is a baby Cal king that was kept in a screen-top tank, dry substrate and water dish. I know she looks fine here, but up close it is evident that the snake could be better hydrated.

See next post..

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Mark

This milk is kept w/o a water bowl except for a few days every 3-4 weeks, because I've been too chicken to withold water more than that. Although now I have more confidence in my setup such that I do not think it will be a problem to withold water longer.

The cage is setup with little ventilation and tight hides such that the snake can reduce water loss. The whole cage is a hide if the snake stays under the substrate, and some of it is dampened as needed.

Anyway, this is just to show you how a thin-skinned milksnake can look without daily access to standing water, especially when the snake is fed well on moisture-rich rodents. Screen tops are the enemy unless your room humidity is high enough. Not that I know what killed your snake - I don't. But if it was organ failure as described by one poster, then take my post as an example that too much ventilation all the time is not a great situation for milksnakes/kingsnakes, and standing water is not needed (much, if at all) to maintain good hydration.

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Mark

As I replied to Frank, I have towels over the screened lids, leaving only an inch or two uncovered. Could it be that the towel isn't a good enough barrier to keep the warmth and humidity in? I have a humidity guage in each cage, and I keep the needle at the upper edge of the "normal" zone.

I appreciate the info, as I don't want to repeat any mistakes i have made
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

Just remember that kings/milks are snakes which are not in the open very much, and their somewhat thin skin is evidence that they keep themselves in areas where they don't dry out. Especially milks. Doesn't mean they are wet either. If you can mimic that in captivity, whichever way works, then you are doing well for them. You will know by their overall look and feel when they are maintaining good water balance.

I don't know how many inches of towel it takes. You will know better than me with your setup and your ambient conditions. Don't be afraid to cover too much, then back off from there. Consider wood or plastic tops. Fun to make and very effective along with a substrate and/or hides that tightly surround the snake and limit open air contact.
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Mark

Please understand, I do not know if it is, or is not dehydration, but, the story you tell, leads me to think in that direction.

The real point is, it does not matter what a humidity gage says. Or paper towels on the top. What matters is what happens to the snake, it is the subject. It died, now find out why. Cheers

Question for FR, One of the post I read on this forum said that screen tops can cause a lot of problems with dehydration and may even kill your snakes, if you don't have a lot of humidity in the air were you live. Well I live Tucson AZ and we don't have a lot of humidity here as you might know since you only live 7 miles from me. I have keep my King Snakes in these kind of cages for over 25 years now and have not had any problem with hydration. P.S. 111 lbs Dude.