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I'm aware of several different morphs that are essentially het for the blue eyed lucy. Mojaves, fires and lesser plats are the ones I know of.
Further, from what I understand, each of those traits breeds true--you get mojaves (and lucys) from a mojaveXmojave. You can also, however, breed any combination of those three morphs, and get blue eyed lucys. But, you don't get fires from Mojaves, or vice versa, or plats from Mojaves, etc.

How does that work on a genetic level? I'm under the impression each of the three heterozygous traits are codom, and when bred to any of the other codoms, can express as blue eyed lucys (which are effectively then het for two different traits). But seems very abnormal, just from my limited experience with genetics. I'm not asking this for breeding advice, it's just academic. This family of traits must have some common genetic tie in it would seem, but just how does it work? Is it the way each trait interrupts the normal coloration? i.e. with one allele from a mojave, and one from a plat, is there just no genetic information to give it normal colors? But then why does the trait show as a lucy rather than some blending of the colors of the two morphs?

Thanks for any clarification and sorry if my post is confusing, but frankly I'm confused!

I beleive you hit the nail on the head in your post. Basically, the dominant version of the gene pair that makes a Mojave/Fire/Lesser/Whatever causes a predictable form of reduction in pigmentation.

So it makes sense that if one allele would cause a reduction in some/all pigmentation, then a double-dose of this would cause a complete or near-to-complete lack of pigmentation.
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>blue eyed lucys (which are effectively then het for two different traits).

I get the feeling from this that you are thinking that there are two gene pairs involved. A blue-eyed lucy from a mojave X lesser cross has two gene pairs that contain mutant genes. One gene pair contains a mojave mutant gene and a normal gene, and the second gene pair contains a lesser mutant gene and a normal gene.

The way we think it works, there is only one gene pair involved. A blue-eyed lucy from a mojave X lesser cross has a mojave mutant gene and a lesser mutant gene in one gene pair.

>with one allele from a mojave, and one from a plat, is there just no genetic information to give it normal colors?

That's the general idea. The two mutant genes in one gene pair block the biochemical pathway that produces normal colors. When there is one normal gene in the gene pair, the block is only partial.

Paul Hollander

>Further, from what I understand, each of those traits breeds true--you get mojaves (and lucys) from a mojaveXmojave.

Mojave, lesser, and the others do not breed true. If they bred true, all of the babies from a mojave X mojave mating would be mojave. Just like albino X albino breeds true by producing all albino babies. Instead, a mojave X mojave mating produces mojaves, normals, and (nearly) lucies. A lucy with two mojave mutant genes would breed true when mated with another lucy with two mojave mutant genes.

Paul Hollander

thanks I just meant that you don't get fires from mojaves or vice versa. But I think I've got it, it was just confusing me as to how that whole thing worked.

It comes down to the distinction between different mutations of the same gene (alleles) and different mutations of different genes. Fire seems to be a different gene all together from the blue eyed leucistic complex.

It's looking like lesser, butter, mojave, mocha, Vin Russo, phantom, mystic, special, hidden and probably a few others are all mutations of the same gene. It's arguable if some might be the same mutation (lesser/butter and also phantom/mystic) but at least some are distinctly different mutations of the same gene like mojave and lesser. Not all the combos are completely white (homozygous mojave has a dark head, lesser with hidden is a platy, mojave with special is a crystal, and the homozygous phantom and the mojave with mystic are grayish purple animals).

However, fire X fire produces a black eyed leucistic and I understand that combos like fire and mojave don't produce a white snake with either black or blue eyes. I don't think I've heard for sure that the mojave fire can produce normals to be absolutely sure they are separate genes but so far it seems likely. There is a mutation called sulfur that was proven compatible with fire (in producing white snakes) so there we may have the start of a black eyed leucistic complex if sulfur and fire are confirmed to be distinctly different mutations.

There also seems to be another multiple mutant allele complex around yellow belly, whirlwind, specter, and probably a few other variations with whirlwind and specter possibly being the same thing.

you say "nearly" because it has a darker head?

what combination makes a much whiter snake?

would a mojave x lesser be better?

thanks

>you say "nearly" because it has a darker head?

Yes.

>what combination makes a much whiter snake?

>would a mojave x lesser be better?

Either a mojave x lesser or a lesser x lesser would be better.

Paul Hollander

thanks