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I was just wondering what would happen if someone did serendipitously produce leucistic hognoses? If they do not live in or around the Colorado area, would F&W just assume they were from there and hunt them down? I vaguely remember reading the fiasco about the original Colorado ones. Seemed that F&W tracked down all the hets and homos that the original guy who bred/collected them had sold. With all the various western hogs at expos and online, how do you think the outcome would be these days?
Just curious.

LOL, they didn't get all the hets.This I know.The visuals maybe but not all the hets.Problem is they could ( by theory) come to your place and take some D.N.A. samples and if they matched then you would most likely be busted or slaped on the wrist and the animals would be taken for sure.They feel that they are al property of the state of Colorado even though the gravid female that was collected in (98) was taken legal.The law didn't change till 2000 but who has endless $$ to try and fight the state???

Anyway, if another lucy white hog pops up the people better hope that its a real fluke and its not connected to the colorado strain.

Burden of prove will be on F&W but if they feel like it and have the funding they can and will pursue.
Time will tell cause I am sure as I am sitting here you will see more in the near future just cause of the massive line breeding.

L8r Shannon

I hope USFW don't read these post...

I know of a bird dealer who was tape recorded saying he knew people that had and would buy illegal and smuggled birds etc..
he was later summons to court and ordered to give up those names..when he didn't he was then slapped with a felony and thrown in prison for a few years...In fact if I am not wrong he ended up serving more than some of the poeple who were busted in the investigation. This guy was in his 70's...
Watch what you say..or in this case put in writing!!
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

I am not saying/stating that I have nor do anything, living or non, that is or could be considered illegal.

What I was asking was this (better analogy):

If some kid goes to a couple of expos that are not anywhere near Colorado and purchases a few nice looking, normal hogs, raises them to maturity, breeds them, and seredipitously(key word; as in unaware of the outcome) produces leucistics, what would the outcome for him and his pets be today in 2009?

Have there been any DNA studies on the various localities of Western Hognose snakes; is there any major marker that seperates hogs by statewide locations?

The word is that if USFW hears of Leucy hog it will be tested. There veiw is that it is much more probable that there related then not.
BUT
If one popped up I think the best corse of action would be to get an attorney (just in case), notify USFW and offer to surrender the animal and request that since no crime was committed that the animal be returned to it's proper owner unless it can be proven that the animals aquisition violated the law somehow.. sometimes please does work..LOL
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

I found the text below in an other forum. This is the story of the Lucys, written from the originator.

When I understand it the right way, then the Lucys where part of the seizure but not illegal!
I´m right or wrong?
When I´m wrong, please explane me WHY.

>>>
First of all I'd like you all to know that I am the original founder of the worlds first Leucistic W. Hognose.On June 28th, 2003 federal agents from the Division of Wildlife in Colorado raided my house in Firestone Colorado and seized 98 snakes.About 88 snakes were venomous and 10 snakes belonged to the ever so popular leucistic w. hognose group. Now the feds would love for everyone to believe that I collected a leucistic hognose in the state of Colorado illegally but the fact is that is far from the truth.About twenty years ago I started looking for a very special mutation of western hognose by collecting gravid females, hatching out their eggs and waiting for something very unusual to hatch out. Needless to say I spent many years hatching out hognose and releasing those hatchings ( and their mothers, for that matter).Fifteen years later I collected a very special female hognose snake.A few weeks after collecting her she laid five perfect eggs. About 45 days later ( thats right, hognose hatch in 45 days from Colorado), the eggs hatched and to my shocking surprise I had two leucistic hognose and three normal looking snakes.After several weeks of feeding and finally probing the hatchlings I learned that I had one leucistic male and four female siblings including the female leucistic.I was completely blown away!What I did was perfectly legal and of course I looked forward to offering the bloodline to the rest of the world since all the snakes were captive produced. By the way I released the mother before the eggs hatched so I'm sure there are many hets crawling around the plains of Eastern Colorado. Over the next 2-3 years I would produce about 10 leucistic and many hets from this fabulous mutation.I offered the first leucistics for sale at $10,000.00 ea. and had no trouble selling them, and sold hets for $5000.00ea.These kind of figures eventually got the attention of the feds and they decided, in their own devious ways, to put an end to it.Now everyone should know it is illegal to possess venomous snakes in the state of Colorado.When the feds finally raided my house they legally seized the venomous snakes but had no right taking the hognose group since the leucistic mutation does not and could not survive in the wild.Eastern Colorado has hundreds of birds of prey including red-tail hawks and kestrels by the hundreds.Western Hognose snakes peak activity is a couple hours after sunrise and a couple hours before sunset especially before dusk in the summer which also happens to be the hawks and kestrels peak activity. A solid white snake of any species would not survive long with those kinds of odds.Unfortunately when the feds raided my house they left me with nothing.I couldn't afford to hire a lawyer that knew anything about the case as far as the animals went and wasn't able to get MY hognose snakes back.I plead guilty to violating the Lacey Act which is basically interstate wildlife trafficking and spent 16 months in a federal prison.I'm now living in a state where it's legal to own venomous snakes and I'm now working with some of the more rarer crotalids, green tree pythons and womas.And for those of you wondering "are ther any more leucistic western hognose out there?" Well, all I can say to that is..... "Damn right there is!" Peace everyone, and happy herping, Brook

Stefan
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Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

Since the Lacey Act says "knowingly or unknowingly" cause animals to be illegally taken from the wild, then those animals would be illegal no matter how many generations removed from the wild or if the person knew they were illegal or not. legally, the person could be tried for a crime, but practically I can't say this has ever happened in a case like this unless the person obstructed "justice." Me? I sure as heck would be telling people I had them or trying to market them. I'd say "Poop! What do I do now?" and find the easiest way out of the mess.......lol.

On the markers, they aren't looking for markers that say "Colorado" - they are looking for evidence of relationship to that specific animal that started the leucistic line. This is like testing to see if your great-great-grweat grandparents were really your grandparents. THAT is easier than saying it is ior is not "from Colorado." They have that DNA, so they can check as many sections as they have funds for (almost limitless if they REALLY want to prove something) meaning you'd have to outcrossing MANY more generations that have been possible to date before they couldn't "prove" it was related to that founder.

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN.us
Snakemorphs.us

>>Since the Lacey Act says "knowingly or unknowingly"
>>cause animals to be illegally taken from the wild

I found something that it was and is allowed to take Western from the wild in Colorado. And you can sell them to people that live not in Colorado.

>>they are looking for evidence of relationship to that specific animal
>>that started the leucistic line.

He released the mother before the eggs hatched so I'm sure there are many hets crawling around the plains of Eastern Colorado.
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Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com