Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey,just need help.is it possible to mixbreed between honduran to another milksnake,such as nelson or sinaloan?this is my honduran

First, This post sould be on the "hybrid forums." Second, Why would you want to? That's a beautifull albino hondo! I personally think you should breed it to a honduran! Third, yes it is possible. Forth, you may find it a little more difficult to breed a honduran to another species than honduran. Fifth, if you where going to hybridize, why do it with such similar species. That makes it hard to tell the babies apart from either species! Sixth, some people are probably going to be upset to even read this post wich is why I put Hybrid Forums as the first LOL!
Much Love to the people on this forum, but someone's ussually offended by these posts.

Yes, though it wouldn't be a hybrid. All milk snakes are the same species, so it would be an intergrade.
Even if the snakes don't have an overlapping range (wouldn't meet in the wild), it would be an intergrade (though an "unnatural" one).
There really isn't much point to making the cross though, as very few (if any) people would be interested in the offspring.

Tim

Third Eye

I've always referred to "un-natural" integrades as crosses. Don't know if that is correct or not but it at least does make some distinction.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Yeah, I know what you mean. But it's hard to say what's "correct" anymore.

I think something like a king x gopher x milk would be referred to as a "3 way cross," by many, and that confuses matters, since it's not an "un-natural intergrade." And while it would be a hybrid, there's still a heck of a lot of people who'd still refer to it as a "cross."

Tim

I thought a king x gopher x milk would be called a manaja twa

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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

"But it's hard to say what's "correct" anymore."

LMAO I know what you mean! here is what I use:

locality - NATURAL form with verifiable local data (purest type can be classic form of subspecies or an naturally occurring integrade) Example Jeff's Pales

generic - no or mixed locality data. Example my coastals

cross - breeding across sub specific lines. Example albino Sinoloan X Nelsons

Hybrid - breeding across generic lines. Example milk X mexicana
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

So you don't use the term "intergrade?"
I thought Nelson's and Sinaloans naturally intergrade where there ranges overlap.

Tim

I equate integrades with naturally occuring populations and crosses as captive lineages. Breeding a red milk to an eastern does not produce an integrade it produces something different. Cross seemed as good a word as any.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

So are you saying that there aren't naturally occurring populations of red x eastern milks in the wild?
And you never answered my question on naturally occurring Sinaloan x Nelson's intergrades.

Tim

Didn't realize you were being specific. Don't know much if anything about how sinoloan and nelson pops interact so I can't say.

As for L.t.t. and L.t.s. yes of course there are integrade populations. If you have locality stock from those areas where integration occurs you would have integrades but if you have a L.t.t. from MD and breed it to a L.t.s. from KS (as an extreme example of adjacent sub-specifics) you get crosses.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Exactly what I was trying to say! I know I don't know everything about the subject. I'm only human but, so where the people who wrote the book! I'm just saying maybe they missed something! Maybe we all did! Integrades occur in the wild, crosses occur in captivity, and hybrids can occur in the wild, but are usually produced in captivity. Integrades and crosses are produced by two subspecies breeding. Hybrids are produced by two species breeding. I heard it was proposed to remove fox snakes from elaphe and change them to pituophis. And then there's the whole elaphe, panthrophis thing. I have been studying, hunting, keeping, breeding, and buying reptiles for the last 23 years and I'm still learning.

"It seems the more I know, the less I realize I know, and the more I still have to learn."

so a Honduran X Eastern milk is an unnatural integrade now? C'mon guys LMAO!

From the "Glossary of Commonly Used Terms" in the "Features" section of this website:

"Intergrade: 1. An animal that comes from an area where the ranges of two subspecies meet and that shows some characteristics of both subspecies. 2. A baby from a man:made mating of snakes belonging to two different subspecies. It would be desirable to use a term such as “subspecies cross” for the man:made mating to separate the two definitions."

Still laughing?

Tim

That kinda confuses things a little. Subspecies cross I can see, but Integrade? It just doesn't sound right. I can't consider a Florida king X California king, or a San Diego gopher X Florida pine, or a Honduran milk X Eastern milk INTEGRADES! Sorry, I don't care what the books say. I'm dead set on insisting they are HYBRIDS. Still LMAO!

"Sorry, I don't care what the books say"

Nice to see that you value your own opinion more than that of people who know far more than you do about the subject matter at hand.

Now THAT truly is funny - I can see why you're laughing so hard!

Tim

I guess I did kinda come off as an @$$ there, huh! Sorry Tim, didn't mean to insult anyone. Like I said, I just think "cross" is a better word here than "integrade."

By definition the examples you sited would not be hybrids but crosses. Hybrids are from breedings that at least cross the species barrier ie triangulum X mexican, zonata or alterna.

A lot of people feel the way you do but that "feeling" is not supported by general convention. Personally I don't have a problem with crossing adjacent sub-specifics but agree things start to get less desirable when crossing forms from opposite sides of a continent.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson