Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey you can laugh you know.

A little history, many years ago, we had lots of parasite problems, then it went to flagelettes. Of course we took them to a vet. But of course, the problems would reoccur. Then we learned that if supported, they can and do rid themselves of most common parasites. I am sure there is some monster parasite that I have no experience with. But I am talking about common parasites. Not a crypo or sal infection. But maybe even Sal.

How do I know this, over the years I would have a reproductive problem with a longterm wildcaught and the vet would do a fecal and much to my surprise, they would be clean. Over the decades, this occurred many times.

So why do you need to treat captive hatched snakes? this baffles me. Yes, I am baffled.

Many of you think its more then that, its not. I really am not concerned about anyones reptiles but my own. Of course I hope for the best. I am just baffled how these common problems can still be so "common" so many years later.

Anyway, I ask these questions, not to test anyones manhood, but out of curiousity. I am very curious, thats why I keep asking new questions to the animals I work with. Both in captivity and in the field.

The reality is, 99% of the snakes we encounter in nature are super healthy, and they all have some manner(level) of parasites. Why?????, why are they healthy?

We even have very old individuals that recruit yearly and have for decades. They are old and thin, by captive standards. We also have lots of really FAT wild herps. Oh well, just more questions. Cheers

>>>We also have lots of really FAT wild herps.

where the foods plentiful they do fatten up, but ive never seen obese snakes in the wild like many in captivity tend to get. whats your take on that FR? cage size, exercise, UVB, temps., diet? all of the above? hmmmmm more questions???
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

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Of course there are many factors, from not having the conditions they actually need to pick from. To the most important, snakes do not follow the type of schedule we normally provide.

For instance, in nature, they normally had set behaviors, this time of year, they are in breeding mode, and do not feed, of course the non breeders do. After the breeding season, they feed heavily for a short period. Then they conserve energy by lowering their body temps. Then go back into breeding mode. where they do not feed.

Of course that is NOT an absolute, its a mode of behavior, a direction. If food is not available, they conserve at any time. etc.

On the otherhand, most keepers feed on a schedule that has nothing to do with the animals patterns, and the temps are nothing to do with the animals needs.

During feeding season, they seek heat and seek food, and feed as often and as much as they can. At times consuming HUGE amounts of food in very short periods.

A funny example, I live where there are lots of snakes. So I have trained a few to beg for food. During the feeding season, some individuals eat every night to everyother night. And do so for over a month.

To clarify, those snakes that do that, move away and have to come back to where I feed them. Sometimes they move over 100 feet, and do so every night. I am not simply opening a cage to feed. They have to move to a place, then return to their burrows, then come back. And yes, I have pics of several species doing this. Cheers

FR, put mildly, your vet SUCKS! Maybe it was the way it was tested, maybe it was the sample, or maybe it was the vet.....but the results are completely suspicious. I would be willing to bet 30% of all cb kings have some kind of parasite, how do you explain your results?
Then you say that most animals in the wild have parasites and are healthy, if yours have none does that make them UNHEALTHY?? LOL
Lastly, wild animals overall health can be explained by what ISNT available to a cb animal. WC snakes dont always find F/T mice out in a field ya know! There are reasons that prey varies. There may well be different things ingested(food items or substrate)that can affect parasite load differently in the wild. Macaws eat mud to deal with the ph balance in their bellies,etc. To say they dont have the same problems is incorrect, its the way they deal with them....and like I have continued to say, ALL these possibilities cant be factored into captivity. Medications can make up for whats lacking.
I would be looking for a refund from your vet if I were you! Then again, alot of vets are like car salesmen. You pay em enough they will make sure the results come back EXACTLY as you want em(if they were sick or not). We call those guys BIOSTITUTES.

Frank's vet is/was Dr. Jarchow. He definitely doesn't suck.
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No offense sir, but your being silly, again. First, my vet is a well known reptile vet and is very good at these type of things. Second, your lumping my methods into OTHER METHODS results. So, scientifically, your making a huge error. If you question my results, YOU NEED TO TEST THEM, that is what science should have taught you. Unfortunately, to test them, would mean you would actually have to listen and absorb, which you resist at all costs.

Again, this is why I say you rationalize these things. I offer information for actual results, both from the field(observations) and actual results from captivity, and instead of testing or even asking more questions, you pigeonhole them. Which is exactly what poor biologists/any walk of life, do. And sir, that is what you appear to be doing.

Or your simply arguing for the sake of arguing, which does not make you a helpful person.

Simply put, you do not have to agree, but if your going to argue, then at least provide something of more value. But what have you offerred, You said, I do not provide choices, because snakes do not think. And, you cannot duplicate nature, so why try. Care to discuss that. Cheers

ARGUING Frank!

No offense sir, but your being silly, again. First, my vet is a well known reptile vet and is very good at these type of things. Second, your lumping my methods into OTHER METHODS results. So, scientifically, your making a huge error. If you question my results, YOU NEED TO TEST THEM, that is what science should have taught you. Unfortunately, to test them, would mean you would actually have to listen and absorb, which you resist at all costs.

Being "well known" doesnt mean anything, I am sure he has made mistakes he will admit to. I am lumping your methods into methods that work, and I thought we were both saying there are many ways to keep snakes, right?? Or are you saying there is only 1 right way?? I dont question your RESULTS, I question your METHODS/interpretation. There is NO WAY for anyone to attempt to duplicate your results, and I do question THAT. We all should and do, but you refuse to provide details. I will question your refusal more and more because its the methods that matter, and there are lots of ways to get the same results. You strive to be different yet you provide no facts, only rhetoric. Put up or SHUT UP Frank, stop being the "snake whisperer"(I LOVE that nickname!!).

Again, this is why I say you rationalize these things. I offer information for actual results, both from the field(observations) and actual results from captivity, and instead of testing or even asking more questions, you pigeonhole them. Which is exactly what poor biologists/any walk of life, do. And sir, that is what you appear to be doing.

Frank, the information you offer is interesting enough to begin a discussion, it always is. But every time we try to get into the METHODS part of the discussion you become irrational, and spin and spin and spin. You are NOT an artist Frank, this isnt ROCKET SCIENCE, and this forum is a great place to share successes. If you want to be the guy you think you are I suggest playing nice, answering questions, provide documentation,etc. Otherwise you are an anecdote, and I dont think you want to be an anecdote Frank.

Or your simply arguing for the sake of arguing, which does not make you a helpful person.

Again, reread ANY of your posts pointed at me and see who is being arguementatative.

Simply put, you do not have to agree, but if your going to argue, then at least provide something of more value. But what have you offerred, You said, I do not provide choices, because snakes do not think. And, you cannot duplicate nature, so why try. Care to discuss that. Cheers

Frank, I argue from the point of SCIENCE as you know. Science isnt all about coming up with new ideas(as you argue, I agree), but it is about PROVING/DISPROVING theories. My arguements are always about the same thing, you flaunt successes yet you provide little structural information that science or other posters can use. You think they are "learning" from you?? You think you are qualified to be a teacher?? The only "thinking" most do is trying to figure out what English/gibberish you are talking about when your sentences run off the page, around the corner, and stop for a taco on the way. This apples: HELP US HELP YOU!

Jeff, this is not school. Its a forum. I am not a teacher. This is like the real world. ITs not buttercoated for your consumption. Each post here is only a post, its not a lecture or recital or a class, its conversation. And its conversation that is suppose to continue, not end after one post. Its also not all about science, its also about enjoyment.

I offer some information, those that want to explore it can. Those that don't, do not have too. Its up to the person. Its not up to me. I am not paid to do this, nor is it of any benefit. So no, I am not going to take a huge effort to buttercoat any of this. If any benefit occurs, even to ONE SNAKE, then I am happy. My goals are not so lofty. Not on here.

You do understand, when you think something is gibberish, and others understand it. Its more about you and your level of understanding. You do understand that, don't you. You and I, are not on the same level and I am glad we are not. I thank the snake gods for that.

As I have said a million times, I am not here for all, I am here for those who want the benefit of my experience. I am here for those who want more then a shoe box and want more then a stupid snake(one that cannot learn or make choices)Again I could be wrong, but thats what old folks are good for, to share their experiences.

Thankfully, my sciene is different from yours. That is something I feel very lucky about. Also you should understand, that if you simply read my posts, and considered it, then dropped it, it would end right there. But you flopping around like a tunafish causes lots and lots of fun, and man, I do like to have fun. Cheers and have a good day

Jeff, this is not school. Its a forum. I am not a teacher. This is like the real world. ITs not buttercoated for your consumption. Each post here is only a post, its not a lecture or recital or a class, its conversation. And its conversation that is suppose to continue, not end after one post. Its also not all about science, its also about enjoyment.

I agree, so stop saying what I do is wrong and what you do is right, as least you should be able to see there is more than one way of getting the same result, I do!

I offer some information, those that want to explore it can. Those that don't, do not have too. Its up to the person. Its not up to me. I am not paid to do this, nor is it of any benefit. So no, I am not going to take a huge effort to buttercoat any of this. If any benefit occurs, even to ONE SNAKE, then I am happy. My goals are not so lofty. Not on here.

Frank, while you may help 1 snake, your ideas about these things could POTENTIALLY cause more harm than good! The ideas you speak should be in a "advanced" forum, where we can have at it like this for fun and education all the time. The PROBLEM I see is the newbie who actually believes your poo-poo doesnt stink, and kills a bunch of snakes trying to figure out your methods. Once you know 1 way, THEN you can try another.....not til then.

You do understand, when you think something is gibberish, and others understand it. Its more about you and your level of understanding. You do understand that, don't you. You and I, are not on the same level and I am glad we are not. I thank the snake gods for that.

You do understand its the 3rd-4th paragraph in almost EVERY one of your posts that lacks either a noun, a verb, or a clue if not all 3. Maybe you reach your "boiling point" and the gibberish seems normal to you. I find it interesting that the beginning and end of your posts are alot more clear, please proof read,lol.

As I have said a million times, I am not here for all, I am here for those who want the benefit of my experience. I am here for those who want more then a shoe box and want more then a stupid snake(one that cannot learn or make choices)Again I could be wrong, but thats what old folks are good for, to share their experiences.

Frank, I understand that, and I am alot like that in a way too. You want a "smart" snake, and I "only care if its alive"....BUT, show me a SMART snake and I will show you a snake that is ALIVE!!! Right????

Thankfully, my sciene is different from yours. That is something I feel very lucky about. Also you should understand, that if you simply read my posts, and considered it, then dropped it, it would end right there. But you flopping around like a tunafish causes lots and lots of fun, and man, I do like to have fun. Cheers and have a good day

I agree, I do have fun battling wits with you, and we can laugh about it over a beer sometime. This is not to say we have to agree, but maybe its MY getting older that I have little tolerance for stupid people,lol. Frank, if you do have ANY SCIENCE please do your best at trying to SHARE it with us! As long as you say 1 and 1 is 37 I will ALWAYS question how you got there. Its because I DO have the science background, as well as the time and patience to glean through the "Frankisms" that makes these threads interesting you have to admit.

Jeff, this statement is silly, you said, "Frank, I understand that, and I am alot like that in a way too. You want a "smart" snake, and I "only care if its alive"....BUT, show me a SMART snake and I will show you a snake that is ALIVE!!! Right????"

Sir, what you really said is, your happy controlling your animals in a way, they have no say in. Your words are also meaningless.

Smart, in biology means, ease of exsistance. Or how easily an animal completes a task, the base is to recruit, all lifes stages point to that.

Alive means, to live, that is, to include lives events, not sit in a plastic tub and breath, eat and crap. Some consider that worse then death. To live is to make choices, it is to learn, to grow. Sadly, you miss that. You seem to be happy your snakes have a heartbeat, that is sad.

While we are not good at letting reptiles live in captivity, we should continue to try to encompass as much life as we can. Do you disagree with that????

I do agree that just because a fecal comes back negative does not mean the animal is negative for parasites. And while I understand FR's point that some animals can and do thrive with healthy levels of parasites, some animals stress in captivity to the point of parasite overload....even if provided with the appropriate environmental conditions. I now work mostly with Green Tree Pythons, and I do have several LTC imports. In my quarantine standards, I require animals have THREE consecutive negative fecals before I consider them "clean". One negative fecal does not necessarily indicate an animal does not have parasites, and in my experience, I have never seen a WC animal that did not have some kind of "bug" in it.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

np

Nice post, but again, missing the point. At least for me.

You said, some thrive with healthy levels of parasites.

The truth is, all wild condros have a base level of parasites and its rare to find an unhealthy wild snake.

You then said, a negative fecal does not mean they are parasite free. But it does say, they may be free or have very low levels. Which is not a worry.

The actual point is, your at war with your parasites, not looking at the snake to make sure it has what it needs. The point is, folks can fight parasites, that can be measured and that can be done. But it appears you do not want to work on your snakes. My guess is because you do not know how.

I did work with some pythons and also achieve some near first breedings. And have seen lots of species in nature. My success was based on the same exact thing, a wide range of temps to choose from. In my opinion and experience, pythons are cold loving snakes. I have seen five species crossing he road at temps in the fifties F, and most do not live hot nights. Oh except blackheaded pythons, they move at about all manner of temps and night and day.

I was very successful at keeping them at 55F and offering a basking area of 100F. Doing this, I had many pythons produce at under two years of age and go on to produce super large successful clutches. I had both blackheadeds and womas, produce clutches of 22eggs. My best was raising a carpet and a whitelipped and having both produce large successful clutches when under 2 years of age. Of course, my near miss was Bolens, the first to be hatched in captivity was a female I raised, then bred, then traded it off FOR MONITORS, hahahahahahaha Then Paul Miles hatched some babies. No worries, those varanids produced as well.

Anyway, its still the same thing, people want to find averages for snakes, instead of letting them pick what suits their needs. They want them to fit in a handy box, and in the case of a condro, sit on a pipe and thrive.

So it becomes the same thing, keep them in a middle of the road way, and you have to fix them, instead of letting them do what is natural to them. Good luck, cheers

>>Nice post, but again, missing the point. At least for me.
>>

FR, I guess you misunderstood my post. Yes some will thrive with healthy levels of parasites. This is not bad in my opinion either. I try to maintain a clean collection and I've had some very unclean, very overstressed animals come in. In these cases, yes I chose to treat the problem as it was out of hand, before it was in my hands.

>> You said, some thrive with healthy levels of parasites.
>>
>> The truth is, all wild condros have a base level of parasites and its rare to find an unhealthy wild snake.
>>
In my opinion, I do not think it is rare to find unhealthy chondros. I see them in the classifieds all the time. Health becomes an issue as they are dehydrated, sitting in flat tubs with nothing to support their natural behavior. Besides that, I try to get into the field as often as I can, and I have found plenty of "unhealthy" herps. I have also found others that you could compair to the healthiest of captives.

>> You then said, a negative fecal does not mean they are parasite free. But it does say, they may be free or have very low levels. Which is not a worry.
>>
Not necessarily. Again I disagree, just because a fecal shows negative or low levels, does not mean there are not high levels of parasites within. It is only what is shown in the given sample.

>> The actual point is, your at war with your parasites, not looking at the snake to make sure it has what it needs. The point is, folks can fight parasites, that can be measured and that can be done. But it appears you do not want to work on your snakes. My guess is because you do not know how.
>>
Again, you do not know how I keep my chondros, so how can you judge? Because of my previous post? I consider that acting on the assumption of little to no information. I keep the majority of my sub-adult to adult chondros in cages I actually consider to be a bit too large. They have the option of seeking temps from the mid 60s to the low 90s at their disposal. I do not offer night time basking as most keepers do. Afterall, they do not get a 90 degree hot spot at night in nature.

>> I did work with some pythons and also achieve some near first breedings. And have seen lots of species in nature. My success was based on the same exact thing, a wide range of temps to choose from. In my opinion and experience, pythons are cold loving snakes. I have seen five species crossing he road at temps in the fifties F, and most do not live hot nights. Oh except blackheaded pythons, they move at about all manner of temps and night and day.
>>
I totall agree. My chondros do not often seek the high temps that others use. They have the option, but are most often on the cool side of the enclosure. The only time they are seen basking is after feeding, while shedding, or after ovulation. I've been trying to recreate temps of Indonesia for several years. Is it going to be exactly the same? No.

>> I was very successful at keeping them at 55F and offering a basking area of 100F. Doing this, I had many pythons produce at under two years of age and go on to produce super large successful clutches. I had both blackheadeds and womas, produce clutches of 22eggs. My best was raising a carpet and a whitelipped and having both produce large successful clutches when under 2 years of age. Of course, my near miss was Bolens, the first to be hatched in captivity was a female I raised, then bred, then traded it off FOR MONITORS, hahahahahahaha Then Paul Miles hatched some babies. No worries, those varanids produced as well.
>>
I too have produced many clutches of chondros numbering near 30 eggs. Others average 12-14. It's too bad you didn't stick with Boelens. Maybe we would have more available information by now. I have a 2 year old carpet gravid right now as well, only she's gravid with chondro seed. Cool huh?

>> Anyway, its still the same thing, people want to find averages for snakes, instead of letting them pick what suits their needs. They want them to fit in a handy box, and in the case of a condro, sit on a pipe and thrive.
>>
Not in my case. Although I do keep things on paper because, as you say it's easier for ME, I do offer multiple perch options and live plants. As mentioned their cages are larger than most keepers use, but I'm sure not as large as you would have.

>> So it becomes the same thing, keep them in a middle of the road way, and you have to fix them, instead of letting them do what is natural to them. Good luck, cheers>>
It's not about fixing them. It's about protecting them, while still letting them do what they do naturally...although I guess dying is part of nature as well.
Cheers.

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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

I was able to purchase a used microscope from a state surplus sale a few years ago and run fecals on my collection from time to time. I am able to determine if a parasite load has become dangerously high and treat as needed. Luckily I haven't needed to treat anything in ages but having the ability to monitor animals in this way is very helpful (and educational). One can choose a more holistic approach and have the ability to guage
parasite loads.

It works for me so I thought I would pass it on.

Thats great, but not my point. If kept properly(a supportive way) they do not seem to get high parasite loads.

I ask, why not look at this first, then think of treating as a cure for our mistakes. (yes, I keep trying to reword this until something finally gets understood)

Also I asked why wild snakes do not need to be treated and they reinfest all the time. Remember, I have watched a single female gila in nature for 30 years, and many snakes over ten years. So its not like they are just dying off. Cheers

OK so this is your point as I see it (in two parts).

A - Parasites only bloom out of control when captives are improperly supported.

B - If you treat the infection without correcting the underlying cause you've, at best, accomplished a temporary fix.

Assuming A is true; B seems reasonable.

The implication however seems to have been Treating while trying to improve support is silly. My question would be why not treat while seeking to correct the environment? Depending on how far things have gone and the type of parasite you're dealing with, isn't it risky to leave a valued specimen to its own defenses while we try to figure out what is wrong?

I like the previous poster's point. Monitor so you know what you're dealing with and treat or adjust support as indicated. Short, sweet and to the point, it was all pepper.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Animals immune systems don't work as well under stress. To understand the true parasitic load of a wild animal it would be best to collect it from an animal that wasn't collected. It doesn't take long for a parasitic load to bloom under stress. Animals in captivity with a higher than normal parasite load are probably suffering from a primary condition like stress, improper husbandry, introduced parasites not normally infecting the species (like feeding raw fish to your water monitor).

Colby what kind of whitesided is that?