Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is my first time posting but i have been lurking and reading these forums for probably over a year. By now I know that some of you could probably give me better advice than my veterinarian who I am not so confident in, but is the only choice in my town. My problem is my very large female snow corn has been twitching her head and neck terribly for over a month now. It looks neurological and she only does it when she sees movement like when I walk past her tank. She has a cloudy, damaged eye cap from hitting the glass because she twitches so forcefully. It started when I switched her bedding from this round paper like stuff called soft sorbent to pieces of soft fabric. I thought it was maybe some chemical on the fabric but she has been on aspen for a week now and is still the same. Another issue is that she is shedding at least once every two weeks, compaired to my other corn who sheds one every three months. I think she sheds so much because right behind her head on her neck her skin has been scabbed over since Christmas time from when she ate a mouse that was way too big (I tried to get her to spit it out when I realized it was too big but she wouldn't) She still feeds very aggresivly between sheds. I have an appointment with my vet tomorrow I just wanted to see if anyone has any ideas. Im worried about brain damage she is hitting the glass so hard.

Thanks for any advice and for reading this long post!

Sounds neurological to me. If there were chemicals in the fabric that "leeched" into the animal, it will either get better with time or it will be a somewhat slow death.

I had two snakes I accidentally poisoned with contaminated substrate. One made a full recovery after 6-8 months but the other slowly kept getting worse qand died after about 2 months. Teh one that recovered I had to literally lay food (frozen thawed only) right in front of it and sometimes hold it in place so he could eat. Eventually he began moving more so I fed him small prey items that encouraged movement so he would gain his movements back. Took quiet a while but he made it back 100%

Good sign is that it is eating. I am not a vet, but I would encourage smaller meals more frequently than normal. My thoughts are the toxins (if that is the case) would be passed faster that way....shrug?

dc

2 funny. I began typing out that response about ten minutes ago, and was distracted with a phone call. Finished it after getting off the phone, and only when I hit SEND, did I see you already answered. Many of us have seen this stuff, so we're pretty sure it's a reaction to poisoning of some kind.

Don

Thanks for the info. I'll try the smaller meals more often. she gets filtered RO water so it couldn't have been that. Stinking fabric! I thought I was going to start the latest thing with buying the scrap fabrcs from the store for cheap easy to clean substrate, but boy was I wrong. I soak her in the filtered water once a week so I assume that will help cleanse her too. She is pretty much giving me a crash corse in herp problems. When I got her a year ago she had just layed 28 eggs (none made it) and then continued to be egg bound for two weeks laying 6 more slugs, and right after that she got snake mites. So this twitching has been the only thing your book hasn't been able to answer Don. Thanks for a good book and thanks everyone else for nice information.

Sounds like you got rid of the mites before this episode, but many of the remedies in the trade that we use to erradicate mites can cause the condition you describe. Especially NoPest strips.

What you are seeing will be in the next book, but the first book was too small for something 99% of all corn keepers will never see. I'll go into much greater detail about this in the next book.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

The only thing I used to kill the mites was a few good soaks in water. Which worked surprisingly well.

Then, I suspect you still have mites, and that's part of the problem. The perpetual shedding is a classic reaction to mites.

Put your snake in a white pillow case for an hour. After removing it, inspect the inside of the bag. Water soaking is seldom successful in the cessastion of mite infestation.
South Mountain Reptiles

Yep...yep...

The best, and least toxic, way I have found to kill mites, phorid flies, and just about anything else, is to get the "Hot Shot" no pest strip at Lowes, break open the white plastic "container," cut the yellow material into fourths, and place a piece in the corner of each sweaterbox of your racks.

It's completely safe for the snakes, and is 100% effective at killing anything that may be crawling around in there!
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I believe these can be toxic, as it is an organophosphate.

You should use a bubble gum sized piece, put it in a container with holes so the reptile can't come into contact with it and leave it in the tub 2 to 3 hour at a time, two or three time a week for 6 to 8 weeks. and allow the cage to ventilate .

All paraphrased from Klingenberg's nice book Understanding Reptile Parasites.

The mite thing was when I first got her a year ago. I am positive she does not have them anymore. My vet just said she has mouth rot which I thought was just part of the little scab on her neck and side of mouth. It doesn't look anything like the pictures I have seen, and it is completely dried out (her mouth isn't dried out just the little infection). But he gave her a shot of baytril and said to come back every four days for another. Also to rub peroxide on it at least once a day, which to me seems like that would upset her sensory organs, but that’s just me. Stomatitis was the last thing I expected though, and it doesn't really explain the twitching, but I guess I'll just wait and see if healing it helps.

>>The mite thing was when I first got her a year ago. I am positive she does not have them anymore. My vet just said she has mouth rot which I thought was just part of the little scab on her neck and side of mouth. It doesn't look anything like the pictures I have seen, and it is completely dried out (her mouth isn't dried out just the little infection). But he gave her a shot of baytril and said to come back every four days for another. Also to rub peroxide on it at least once a day, which to me seems like that would upset her sensory organs, but that’s just me. Stomatitis was the last thing I expected though, and it doesn't really explain the twitching, but I guess I'll just wait and see if healing it helps.

mites just don't "go away" with a few soaks in water.
I usually don't have a problem being the @$$ hole but since you seem to be trying to get help I will try to tone it down.
You've had the snake over a year and since YOU'VE had it it's gotten mites, it has a retained eye cap, it's suffering from some form of toxin causing the twitch, skin lesion and bad sheds, AND it has mouth rot?
There has to be some serious husbandry issues here.
could you give a thorough description of your set up?
container size and type (aquarium, plastic sweater box, home-made enclosure..etc), heat source and temperatures, lighting if any, hides, substrate, decorations, water bowl size and location...any and everything you can think to tell us.
I just can't help but think that even with vet care and medications the snake doesn't have a chance if proper husbandry needs aren't addressed and met.
It may seem harsh or "not really an answer to your questions" but ...
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

This isn't personal. At the risk of offending you, I must agree with Jimmy. After all, we're here for one reason. Our passion for corns. Please, don't be offended that we suspect husbandry problems. We've all had them.

If this snake has one more problem, it will break the old record for variety of ailments in one year. LOL. Was it twitching before or after the Baytril? It would be interesting to know when the “twitching” began. Stomatitis is also very rare in captive corns, and very easily avoided through husbandry practices. Stomatitis is rare because improper temperatures/ventilation often kill a corn before you even have a chance to react to the likes of such infections. Is your thermometer INSIDE the warm-side hide? What is the temperature INSIDE that hide? Do you use UT heat? Screen top?

We’re just trying to help, cuz having this many different problems in one year is extremely rare. Please, do the white pillow case test, just to be safe. Among other things, mites are disease vectors. They can harbor and transmit parasites into your snake’s bloodstream. Let’s eliminate all of the culprits we can, before something goes beyond repair. Most of the corn keepers on this site will tell you that having even one of these problems throughout the life of a captive corn is rare. I’m not second-guessing your vet (because I AM NOT A VET), but Baytril every four days surprises me. I’m ashamed for even saying that, cuz there may be a new Baytril out there I haven’t heard of, that’s only needed that infrequently. I’d love to know if that is the case. Do not take that to be a challenge to your vet, because I am not qualified to diagnose or treat your snake.

South Mountain Reptiles

Last year was just a bad year for me I guess! Lol! I thought mites and egg binding were kind of common. But then again I am not a vet or an expert of the industry like you! Lol! I forgot to mention the heat pads are under mounted and the cage does have a screen top, which I was thinking about replacing with a acrylic one with air holes in it so she wouldn't rub her nose across the screen like she does.

Again, this is something that is extremely rare. Rubbing to get out of the cage is an indication that your snake was desperate to get away from something in the cage. We keep getting back to things pointing to temperature problems. The stomatitis is usually from the snake being too cold/damp (very unlikely) or from trauma resulting from trying to get out of the cage. There are so many problems that seem to be symptoms of husbandry issues, it's difficult to point to any one stimulus. If this were my snake, I'd completely start over. Not necessarily replacing the cage, but going back to square one, regarding set up. Your snake should NOT want to get out of the cage. If comfortable (usually temperature-wise), the snake should not want to get out. Having said that, if they are being tortured with a mite infestation, they would try to get out of even the most ideal cages. Pillow case test.
South Mountain Reptiles

Infections can cause neurological disorders too..especially if the infection is near the brain (mouth rot or related bacterial infections). Infections that are not treated for a long time or improper husbandry aggravates the condition can slowly poison your snake as the bacteria flows through the blood stream, infecting other areas etc.
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PHLdyPayne

I have read some of your angry post's before and would hate to receive one so thanks for "toning it down" Lol! I appreciate it! As far as cage and set-up she is in a 55 gallon with shaved aspen bedding, two hides, a large water bowl, and some large sandstone rocks. Both hides are at the same end of the cage, one is on a heat pad and its average temp is 85° and the other is at ambient room temp of 75°. The water bowl is on the opposite end of the cage and is on a heat pad as well. The water is replaced every three days and refilled when needed. I don’t know the humidity but I keep the substrate slightly moist all the time (except in the winter). I usually feed her two F/T adult mice every two weeks.
As for the mite situation, I got them off of "her" with a "few good soaks", meaning no mite-off spray or anything like that. Immediately after I discovered them on her I took her to the tub and rinsed/picked them all off (there wasn’t many at all, maybe a little more than 30). Then took the cage outside and cleaned it and the cage furniture with a water/bleach mix, and then let it sit and dry out for a week in the pleasant 108° desert air too kill whatever eggs might have made it through the bleach. While that was going on she lived in a clear rubbermade tub that I cleaned daily. About two weeks since it started I found no more of the nymphs on her and put her back in her nice sparkly cage and she has been good since. Until the twitching started that is.

I hope that covers everything? Thanks for caring! Lol

Stop dampening the substrate. Not only unnecessary, but dangerous. You're creating a bacterial and fungal paradise. Either or both are taxing your snake's immune system. Getting a screen top will facilitate ventilation.

A cornsnake's instinct to hide is sometimes greater than it's instinct to stay in a proper temp zone. Hence, you should have a DARK and SECLUSIVE hide in more than one temp zone. One warm/one cooler than the warm one. Remember, HIDE means they feel like they are hidden.

You're saying that the temperature of 85F is being monitored INSIDE the hide (thermometer location is crucial)? If so, you're just at the warm end of the comfort range. If your snake is spending 75 % of the daytime hours IN that hide, it's telling you that temp is fine. If spending less than that in there, you should reduce the temperature that corresponds to finished temp IN that hide. Reduce hide temp (usually by increasing substrate depth under it) until your snake spends 3/4 of all daytime hours in it. If too much light penetrates the hide, this would be a good reason not to hang out in that hide.

Feed your snake one mouse every week. Two of them every two weeks would be like you eating one large meal every morning, and no meals inbetween. Me, I don't like that empty stomach feeling, and it's not natural for snakes. They eat constantly in the wild. Males do just fine on that bi-weekly regimen, but I don't recommend it for females. It's not super likely, but hunger could be another reason to try to get out of the cage. The two logical reasons for wanting to get out of a cage are; 1) to get away from something they do not like INside the cage, or 2) something they need or want is not INside the cage, so they try to get OUTside the cage to find it.

Again, it's difficult to say which of these cage conditions could be causing your problems, but all the things you're experiencing are rare, and avoidable. Perhaps a picture of the cage would help us identify any other potential problems that are causing your snake to have so many medical complications.
South Mountain Reptiles

I'll buy some new hides, start feeding once a week, and everything else you recommended. I'll also try to figure out the photobucket picture thing so I can post a pic of her cage.

30 mites on the body of the snake is alot, a rather bad infestation to be honest. I had less on my BRB when I had mites...and it took much more than just a soak and cage cleaning to get rid of them and she was housed in a rubbermaid container.

Mites migrate and have about 5 stages of life. Only one stage is on the snake. All it takes is one female to lay her eggs outside the cage and your infestation can start again, even a year later.

Provent a mite and black knight II (BKII) are good mite killers that are safe to use in the cage (basically remove the snake and water from cage, spray, let dry then put snake back in. Repeat again in a month. This is for the Provent a mite..not sure if hte BKII is the same, but instructions will be on the bottle.

For linking pictures... you can use photobucket (which does give you a link to copy and paste (look for the img tags) or you can upload your pictures to the kingsnake photogallery (automatically have free storage space (I think its 10MBs now) and once uploaded you can select from a drop down menu below each new message/reply screen and can select up to three (hit ctrl when clicking on additional pictures) Use the Preview button to make sure pictures are showing correctly. Then click Edit if needed
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PHLdyPayne

>>I have read some of your angry post's before and would hate to receive one so thanks for "toning it down" Lol! I appreciate it! As far as cage and set-up she is in a 55 gallon with shaved aspen bedding, two hides, a large water bowl, and some large sandstone rocks. Both hides are at the same end of the cage, one is on a heat pad and its average temp is 85° and the other is at ambient room temp of 75°. The water bowl is on the opposite end of the cage and is on a heat pad as well. The water is replaced every three days and refilled when needed. I don’t know the humidity but I keep the substrate slightly moist all the time (except in the winter). I usually feed her two F/T adult mice every two weeks.
>>As for the mite situation, I got them off of "her" with a "few good soaks", meaning no mite-off spray or anything like that. Immediately after I discovered them on her I took her to the tub and rinsed/picked them all off (there wasn’t many at all, maybe a little more than 30). Then took the cage outside and cleaned it and the cage furniture with a water/bleach mix, and then let it sit and dry out for a week in the pleasant 108° desert air too kill whatever eggs might have made it through the bleach. While that was going on she lived in a clear rubbermade tub that I cleaned daily. About two weeks since it started I found no more of the nymphs on her and put her back in her nice sparkly cage and she has been good since. Until the twitching started that is.
>>
>>I hope that covers everything? Thanks for caring! Lol

It Sounds like you did the right thing with cleaning.
You say you have a heat pad under both ends?
I think I would remove the one under the water bowl. Is the water bowl large enough for the snake to soak in?
It would help if it is.
Can the snake go under the water bowl as a hide? If not, move one of the hides to this now-cooler side.
As Don stated, don't moisten the substrate. No need and it will harbor bacteria.
Make sure to get a good thermometer and check temps directly over the heat source (where the snake would actually be).
Check the cool end where you have now positioned a hide and re-check ambient temps at both ends and the center of the tank.
Oh yeah, check closely to make sure if it is or is not a retained eye cap. If it is, dampen a wash cloth with warm water and gently rub over her head and eye. If this doesn't work you could try giving her a good soak in warm water.
That's about all I can think of at this moment.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Her water bowl is actually a 14" by 9" plastic critter keeper but that is the only thing she will soak in. As of me typing this she is in her warm hide (she is on top of the thermometer probe) and it is 92.5 which seems high to me but she has been in there since this morning so I guess she likes it. The water is 74.4 with the heat pad just turned off an hour ago. The center of the cage is 73.5 (thermometer is on the substrate), and the same goes for the cool hide.

OK. Several things.

You did not get rid of mites with just water soaks. If you did not treat then you still have them. Guaranteed.

Mites will cause all 4 of the symptoms your snake has. They are itchy and they make snakes FREAK OUT. I have had people come into the hospital absolutely convinced that their snake was having seizures... nope just mites. The constant itching and rubbing could easily damage her eye and traumatize her mouth which could then become infected. Mites are also one of the only things that will cause increased shedding. They can damage the skin so that when the snake eats a big meal the skin tears and scabs. If your snake finished eating the mouse then it wasn't to big. No size prey should ever cause an external scab on an otherwise healthy snake.

As others have said, wetting down the aspen will cause bacteria to grow and make it easier for mites to breed in the bedding. If you are having problems with humidity/shedding you should cover the top of the tank and either switch to a substrate like cypress which has natural antimicrobial properties and can be sprayed down. Or provide a humid hide box full of spagnum moss (also antimicrobial) which you can clean on a regular basis.

If by some miracle you don't have mites then you actually do have a snake with neurological damage. My first question would be from the RO water you are using. Surprised no one else mentioned that. Using only RO water is too pure. Your snake is not getting micro minerals that it needs. Some people do OK with RO but these are almost always people who feed very heavily and frequently. The snake can maintain mineral balance from its food. When You only feed every two weeks the snake can't do that and it can develop neuro signs.

So, here is what I would do. Clean the cage. Treat the snake and the cage for mites. We are not in the 70s anymore, for god sakes use proventamite and not those toxic pest strips. Put down some clean dry aspen. Remove the heat from the water bowl and fill it with regular old tap water (after the mite treatment has dried). Providing a really nice hot spot 90F will help your snake amp up its immune system. Feed more frequent small meals.

Also, that dose of baytril makes no sense to me.

Please keep us posted on your snakes progress. The fact that it is still eating is a very good sign that you have a fighter on your hands.

Cheers and good luck

She has had a total of 3 baytril injections so far and is only due for two more. Two days ago she had a complete shed and now her eye is healthy again, and the twitching has almost completely stopped! I’m so happy! She has been switching back and forth from her hides and staying in them since. All in all she is acting normally like my other snakes. I haven’t been able to buy her new hides yet (nearest good pet store is over an hour away) but she seems content in hers now. I’ll try the tap water (still super clean well water). Here is a pic of her that I took a while ago, that is not how her cage is setup that was just for background.

Ha, that is what happens when you get old, you become slow and I am not just speaking to your mental facualties, lol.

I read your post and the one after yours. I failed to mention a few things.

First, when I said I began feeding smaller prey items it was smaller live animals to encourage a little "chase." Again, these prey items were typically hoppers and such for a 5 foot animal.

Secondly, I also used a container and soaked my snake every other day. Not sure if it helped but I hoped that it did.

Lastly, I think the other poster said more specifically what I was thinking. Many fabrics have dyes and tons of chemicals in them. Same reason you suggested not using shredded paper for for substrate.

later

dc

As you guessed, the "twitching" is neurological, and DOES point to one or more toxic stimuli. Spraying in or around the cage with Lysol is a great way to slowly kill your snake. Never spray ANYTHING in or near the cage. Something was likely on that fabric (perhaps it was stored in a cedar chest?) since I can't imagine what else would be toxic on fabrics. I do know I'd never use any fabric as a cage substrate for snakes.

Then, you said it's shedding too frequently. This usually narrows down the stumulus to being external. In other words, there are parasites that can cause the seizure-like movements you describe, but they're rare. I'm sure you're not putting anything in its water, and the time proximity of this problem (relative to you changing the substrate), definitely points to a problem with the substrate you used. It's difficult to use a substrate that is as neutral (and safe) as aspen, so I recommend you stick with that. The extra sheddings happen when the outter skin is damaged. It can be generally damaged by surface exposure to toxins, OR the damage she's receiving from her violent twitching could initiate super-frequent sloughing. Regardless, the stimulus was probably a toxin, absorbed through its skin, and/or it could have swallowed a piece of that fabric (presuming the fabric had a toxic substance in/on it).

Prognosis? I indeed it has been poisoned from contact or ingestion, the fact that she's alive is good. It means that in time, she should flush that from her system. Make sure she has ample access to drinking water, and make sure the water is not chlorinated. It should be purified or filtered water, but not distilled. If she's still alive in a couple of weeks, and you notice a reduction in "seizures/flinching", she'll probably make it.

Best wishes, and let us know what happens.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

i just wanted to add that the fiber used to make fabric has all types of chemicals on it. i worked in textiles for years and there are lots of nasty chemicals in dyes and static release sprays used to get the fiber to run through machine..... im not saying thats your problem but yea fabric is not the way to go. most fabrics in stores havent even had any of the chemicals rinsed off ahead of time because its almost impossible to wash a 90' roll of fabric......
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2.2 red tail boas
1.0 blood python
1.1 kenya sand boas

I was wondering if this is the case with old used fabric. I heard that a way to get a "distrusting" snake to accept you is to put an old, dirty t-shirt in the tank, like in its hide, so that it will get used to your scent and feel safer when you handle it. Is this untrue or unsafe???

Actually, this works rather well, but it is intended to be done only with an older (ie: scented with your scent) item, and only for long enough to get the animal associating your scent with the security it got from being "hidden" in the folds of the rumpled up t-shirt in its tank.

It isn't intended to be done on a long-term basis.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

What would you consider to be long term? Minutes, Hours, Days, Weeks???

When I've used that shirt trick in the past with wild caught specimens it worked within 12 hours to 3 days. As a result I've never left a shirt in an enclosure for more then 3 days.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
0.1 Pacific Gophersnake(unproven Hypo)
1.0 Amel Pacific Gophersnake
0.1 Striped Anery Pacific Gophersnake
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Just a though for consideration, wondered if the fabric that was used was being cleaned with laundry detergent on a regular basis and that could also possibly be a cause of irritation to skin and eyes and general health issue, it can cause problems in humans and certainly reptiles have even more sensitive skin. Either way the use of fabric as a substrate has been eliminated from future use.
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Jeff Benfer
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.2 flame Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

I washed all the fabric before I used it. Didn't want any wal-mart germs on my snake! lol

strong perfumes, bleach, etc on fabric can be toxic too...pretty much if it 'smells' like perfume etc to us, its not a good idea to put it in with animals. Air dried outside, would be best...one way to get rid of all the fumes so many laundry liquids/detergents and dryer sheets have. I find all the scented stuff more irritating than a room full of dirty rat cages.
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PHLdyPayne