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Force Feeding Young Hoggy

Fittleloot Mar 05, 2009 09:08 PM

I have an adorable and cherished somewhat recently (been with me < a year) acquired Western Hognose.
About a month and a half ago he got out. His cage was solidly latched, but it was on a shelf at eye level. My cat somehow managed to push it off when I wasn't home (this was totally unanticipated and it still baffles me how she did it). He was found within four hours maximum of his escape, put in his cage, put in a safe cat free spot, and was left completely alone for two weeks as getting batted around had to have been pretty stressful. The escape happened on his feeding day, so he didn't end up getting a mouse at that time. He was an excellent feeder up till this.
Its been long enough that his weight is seriously diminishing (he is an immensely active hognose, and is almost always cruising his viv) and I have gradually reached a point of having to force feed him.

This is a completely last resort. I have tried toads, lizards, live pinkies, brained pinkies, pinkies actually covered in a brain/blood mix that I keep in a tiny vial in the freezer for a corn snake who is sometimes a stubborn eater, deli cup trick to minimize distraction, etc. I give him overnight to eat, and although I usually feed out of their vivs, I have been leaving the pink in his cage overnight to minimize stress on him.

He literally has absolutely no feeding interest whatsoever. It doesn't matter what I present him with, he is completely uninterested.

We've reached the point that he absolutely needs to have something in him. Last night was my first experience force feeding a snake. I've never been in a position where none of the other methods didn't work.

Last night I was able to gently use a piece of stiff paper to force open his mouth (he will not open it any other way) and quickly pushed the tip of an anole tail (anole not attached) down his throat enough that he finished swallowing it. He got a two inch segment, and then another two inch thicker segment once he had swallowed the first. There's pretty much zero chance of actually getting him to take a full pink this way. It was attempted, but I'm fairly hesitant to try to force it past his fangs and venom glands when he doesn't want it.
I did try to take advantage of his muscle response and try to get him to take a pinky because he was accepting the tail, but it wasn't successful.

A couple of questions: Is there an easier way of getting him to open his mouth? Although I have a basic understanding of snake skeletal systems and the strength of their bones, it is not something I'm an expert in at all. I do not know how aggressive I can be with this whole process. I pry his mouth open by slipping the edge of the paper between his 'lips' on the side, and wiggle it for a second until he opens slightly to adjust his jaw, then I keep the paper between his upper and lower jaw as I slip in the tail. This is extremely difficult because he's very small, and as a hoggy he has an absurdly short mouth.
What's better? Anole tails? Mice tails? Rat tails? Rat feet/front legs?
I do have the means to feed him mouse puree, but don't know if that would be a preferred alternative.
Will force feeding for some time eventually generate a food response again?
This is extremely stressful for both he and I, and if there is a point where I should give up and have him put to sleep for his sake, I am willing to accept that.

Thank you for reading all of this. I honestly appreciate it.
Image

Replies (8)

SRX Mar 05, 2009 11:14 PM

Have you tried the canned tuna juice dipped pinky or low salt chicken broth dipped pinky yet? Sometimes the tuna trick works on stubborn feeders. Just a thought as force feeding is never low stress on the animal; especially one with such a short snout and mouth like a hognose. Just a suggestion.

Rextiles Mar 06, 2009 04:06 AM

Sorry to hear about your ordeal. I will try and address each issue as best I can.

"...cage was solidly latched, but it was on a shelf at eye level. My cat somehow managed to push it off when I wasn't home (this was totally unanticipated and it still baffles me how she did it)."

While I do not know exactly what type of cage/tank/housing you have for your snake, I can only assume that the lid was an aftermarket type of lid for a generic style glass aquarium. If you want to keep your snake in a glass style aquarium setup, I would highly recommend purchasing an actual sliding type reptile tank as these would be impossible not only for your cat to get in, but also for a snake to get out. Also, they usually have a hole on the latch to put a type of lock to help deter unwanted people from opening the tank. Aftermarket lids are usually of questionable security and guaranteed that if your cat can figure out how to open it, a snake will definitely find a means as well. They are after all, masters of escape!

"He was found within four hours maximum of his escape, put in his cage, put in a safe cat free spot, and was left completely alone for two weeks as getting batted around had to have been pretty stressful. The escape happened on his feeding day, so he didn't end up getting a mouse at that time. He was an excellent feeder up till this."

Did you happen to notice any actual physical trauma the snake might have incurred at the paws of your cat? It might be possible that the snake might have been physically injured from tooth or claw and not even notice it. It's even possible that the snake might have suffered some type of crushing trauma from the cat pouncing or playing with it. It's far too hard to determine any of these without really taking it to a vet to run more than just a cursory exam.

"Its been long enough that his weight is seriously diminishing (he is an immensely active hognose, and is almost always cruising his viv) and I have gradually reached a point of having to force feed him."

You are way too vague here. How long is "long enough" and just how much has his weight changed? Force feeding is by far a last result as most people unaccustomed to force feeding often risk physically hurting the snake or turning it off of food altogether.

However, it is definitely not unheard of that hognose, especially males, going off of food for lengthy periods of time at any age. Also consider that snakes are more adapt at going off of food for months at a time without suffering from any longterm effects. Obviously we have to take into consideration the circumstances regarding when and why your snake has gone off of feed, but we also need to know the specifics of weight issues. What you might consider significant weight loss might in fact be trivial. We just don't have the information to make any standing opinion on this.

"This is a completely last resort. I have tried toads, lizards, live pinkies, brained pinkies, pinkies actually covered in a brain/blood mix that I keep in a tiny vial in the freezer for a corn snake who is sometimes a stubborn eater, deli cup trick to minimize distraction, etc. I give him overnight to eat, and although I usually feed out of their vivs, I have been leaving the pink in his cage overnight to minimize stress on him."

Again, we don't know the specifics of how long he has gone off of feed nor his exact age or weight to draw any means to make suggestions. However, one mistake often made is constantly offering food when it is not wanted. This also can turn a snake off of food. Are you offering food every day or within a few days at a time? If so, you might be doing more harm than good as this has sometimes had the impact of a snake staying the course on his hunger strike. At best, it is usually advised to only offer food, whether eaten or not, about once a week.

Also, what types of toads are you offering him? There is a huge misconception that hognose will eat, or that it is even safe to eat, any or all species of toads. From all of the literature I have read, some toads such as Marine Toads (Bufo Marinus), which are quite common for sale in the pet trade, are considered highly toxic. I have also heard that fire belly toads which are also common to pet stores are also not advisable to feed to hognose. If you are indeed scenting mice or even flat out offering an animal as a food source that is alien or toxic to it's natural diet, it might also turn him off as well. Again, without specifics, it's way too hard to know what to even guess at.

"We've reached the point that he absolutely needs to have something in him. Last night was my first experience force feeding a snake. I've never been in a position where none of the other methods didn't work."

Again, I would like to know the specifics of when this cat incident happened, what the snake weighed at or prior to this event, how long he's been off of food and how much he weighs now.

"Last night I was able to gently use a piece of stiff paper to force open his mouth (he will not open it any other way) and quickly pushed the tip of an anole tail (anole not attached) down his throat enough that he finished swallowing it. He got a two inch segment, and then another two inch thicker segment once he had swallowed the first. There's pretty much zero chance of actually getting him to take a full pink this way. It was attempted, but I'm fairly hesitant to try to force it past his fangs and venom glands when he doesn't want it.
I did try to take advantage of his muscle response and try to get him to take a pinky because he was accepting the tail, but it wasn't successful."

Why was an anole tail used? When you have a rodent eating snake, one of the worst things you can do is force feed them a different prey item that you have no intention on constantly feeding them. There's a chance that you might turn him onto eating anoles and refusing mice at this point. Why wasn't a rodent tail used instead? You might seriously want to consider purchasing a pinky pump to have on hand, that way you can offer a pureed mouse which is going to be a lot more substantial than just tails anyways. But remember, pink pumps can be extremely dangerous to use if you do not know how to handle one properly. But it is a valuable tool to have on hand for situations like this.

I have a female pink pastel that went off of food for 1 month intervals for over a year while being a yearling. This of course did not cause me too much concern as she wasn't losing any weight. But then she went on a 2+ month hunger strike and after losing 15% of her body weight, I then decided to force feed her using a pink pump. While it was a stressful ordeal as hognose are especially difficult to force feed by the structure of their mouth, it enabled her to have a full belly and gave her a taste of some pureed food which ultimately got her into feeding heavily after only having to do this procedure twice over 2 weeks. Mine was a fortunate circumstance.

"A couple of questions: Is there an easier way of getting him to open his mouth?"

There are special feeding tools called speculas which are designed for and extremely helpful in helping to open a snakes mouth and allowing a means of inserting tubes down their throats for feeding or medicating purposes. You can easily find these on sites like Bean Farm. They are cheap and definitely another tool worth investing in should you need it. In a pinch, you can probably fashion the round end of a paper clip to do the same thing, but the paper clip should only be used once and then thrown away as they will rust and can cause future problems if used again.

However, as I stated before, hognose mouths are definitely far more difficult to open and keep open than any colubrid or any other typically mouthed reptile. With this in mind, you do have to be very careful and sometimes more forceful than you would have to be with other snakes. Obviously, you are also aware of their fangs and do not want to damage them. However, every single article and video I have seen have repeated the fact that snakes replace their teeth on a regular basis, not entirely unlike a shark does, but they do not have the rows of teeth to instantly replace them like a shark. But should you feel this is a huge concern, from what I have seen, it is not.

"I pry his mouth open by slipping the edge of the paper between his 'lips' on the side, and wiggle it for a second until he opens slightly to adjust his jaw, then I keep the paper between his upper and lower jaw as I slip in the tail. This is extremely difficult because he's very small, and as a hoggy he has an absurdly short mouth."

Personally, I do not see how paper can be very useful for doing this. Sure, paper is thin enough to get into his mouth, but is too weak to really do any type of prying. Also, snakes salivate, and you know what happens to paper when it gets moist. Also consider the fact that paper can give you a nasty cut. With that in mind, it might be considered that you might be able to accidently give your snake a paper cut right on his jaw line which would not alone physically harm him, but might deter him from food. Also, paper can have a specific taste to it, so whether or not be a problem with confusing him about food items, it's something worth considering.

"What's better? Anole tails? Mice tails? Rat tails? Rat feet/front legs?"

I believe I covered this prior, but it's worth reinstating. If he's a rodent eater, keep offering rodent parts. The worst thing you can do is confuse him with prey items and then turn him onto something that you cannot feed to him on a consistent basis.

"I do have the means to feed him mouse puree, but don't know if that would be a preferred alternative."

It is.

"Will force feeding for some time eventually generate a food response again?"

It can and can't. It really depends on the snake and the reasons why it might have gone off of food in the first place. Personally, I think this is why a pink pump is a reallly helpful tool. While you might want to cause less stress by force feeding easy items like tails and legs to induce a feeding response down the road, a pinky pump will definitely get far more nutritous matter into the snake than just legs and tails will. But again, pinky pumps can be very dangerous and it is possible to even pump too much food into the snakes stomach which can be very harmful too.

It has been documented that some snakes that have been force fed can rely on this and will not voluntarily eat on their own. Personally though, I have had to force feed 3 snakes and not once has this happened to me. That's not to say the results of force feeding were an overnight success. Sometimes it can illicit a healthy feeding response shortly after and then the snake can go on another hunger strike which forces you to have to force feed again. It's important to document events such as this so you might be able to determine a type of pattern.

"This is extremely stressful for both he and I, and if there is a point where I should give up and have him put to sleep for his sake, I am willing to accept that."

Again, this is where a pinky pump is worth it's investment. Force feeding is extremely stressful, regardless of what type of food item you are offering. So, my assessment would be to minimize the stress while infusing as much nutrition as possible. In other words, if you are going to have to force feed the snake and you know it's going to be stressful, what would be better, feeding it just a little tail which isn't going to offer much nutrition or filling it's belly with a nutritional and easily digestible pureed pinky? Logically, that just sounds more reasonable to me, but everybody's experience will be very different and need to be assessed on a case by case basis.

In regards to euthanizing him, these just seems totally premature without knowing any specifics as I specified earlier. I know you said he is losing weight, but is he looking so skinny that his skin looks loose?

You might also want to consider other things as well. Sometimes it is possible to overlook a snake that went through a blue shed phase and hasn't been able to shed. This will cause a snake not to eat as well as causing a physical appearance which looks like it's losing weight. Also, if he's not eating, you might want to consider lowering his temperature as warmer temps for reptiles causes a higher metabolism. But only you know what type of environment you are keeping him in. There's just too many factors to consider before ruling the poor snake out.

Good luck on your hognose and please keep us up to date with how he's doing!

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

FittleLoot Mar 07, 2009 12:55 AM

I really really appreciate your response.

The cage is actually a plastic 18" x 12" x 6 1/2" (maximized floorspace for lots of burrowing room and a large temp gradient). The top didn't actually come off so much as the six foot topple broke the cage. I've been long considering a strong plexiglass cage, and this pretty much cinched it. He is now in one of his old cages, with a lot of his previous substrate (from the one that broke, as there were no fragments that got free in to it) and all his hides so the whole thing smells as similar as I can get it. (He is, however, double caged now and sitting on the floor. It's officially impossible to get to him if you don't have strength and opposable thumbs. Hopefully I'm the only one with both of those things in the house.)

He was immediately given a very thorough examination. Physically, he's perfectly okay. I'm fairly sure his defense mechanism actually saved him from the cat. If he stopped moving, she'd get quite bored and leave him alone. This is pure postulation, of course. I do, know, however, that he is quite intact.

Its been a little over two months now, and he was 28g before the incident, and has reduced to 22g. My perception of what's bad weight loss could easily be skewed due to the fact that I have the most experience with Uromastyx, a species that should never go down more than a gram or so in weight when they're young.
I'm sure the hognose is parasite free. All my reptiles have a vet appt with an experienced herp vet every six months, and the carnivores/insectivores are checked for parasites that often (herbivores once a year).

The anole tail was used because it was the only thing that I felt confident in getting down his throat easily. I've got a good amount of experience getting meds in to lizards being rehabbed with something very narrow, but had no notion that I would be capable of getting anything different down him. I was worried enough that it hadn't occurred to me how intensely stupid it was to use a non-rodent. It does now!

Pry was probably the wrong verb for me to use. What I used is impossible to get a paper cut from. It was a heavy weight hand pressed unbleached piece of watercolor paper (which can get quite wet, but won't get flimsy, break apart, or release chemicals). I just slipped the edge into the slit of his jaw and wiggled enough to be annoying until he opened to get the wiggling to stop and to readjust.

I definitely meant frog, and not toad. What I offered was a little Rana sylvatica.
I've been offering pinks every four days, in general. I can totally back that up to a week, though.
I will absolutely purchase a specula and a pinky pump, and if its okay to continue waiting and offering and not being truly worried, that's wonderful. I would love to not have to use them.

The mention of potential euthanasia was for way in the future, just to prepare my brain if it was a significant possibility of it exponentially going downhill. Or if they had a tendency to do this as little guys.
His skin isn't loose, but he has visibly gone from a happy plump little guy to a lean, although not emaciated, snake. (The photo is from the first day I had him. I just took a shot as I slipped him in his cage for the first time.)

I have never seen a hoggy in blue, and the scale type is totally unfamiliar to me, so that could be a possibility. He has water available to soak in, but should I offer a wet hide just in case? I have read that they're sensitive to humidity, ergo me asking. I've never seen him in his water.

I really appreciate you taking the time to answer all of this. I do hope I've answered everything. If I missed anything, please let me know.

tedmolekings Mar 06, 2009 08:32 AM

Is the pic you have posted recent? If so it appears to me that he still has sufficent weight on him. I agree that if he was a mouse eater then that is what you should be trying to feed him. I have produced around 100 hogs and the few that I have had to force feed I take a q-tip and cut the end off. Then I take it to the side of the mouth until it opens its mouth then I take the pinky head first and start to push it in with my fingers then take the q-tip and gently work the pinky down. If it were mine I would Let him go for a while before trying to feed him. Force feeding can be very stressfull and although I have never lost a hog by doing this I have lost a couple of corns doing this. It might be hard to do but leave him alone for awhile so as not to stress him. Just check to make sure he has water.
Hope everything works out for you, Mike

Nearhoofm Mar 06, 2009 08:37 AM

Sorry last message from tedmolekings was from me, Nearhoofm, Was using friends computer and forgot to log in under my user name, Mike

MOTORHEAD Mar 06, 2009 09:07 PM

Hello Mike

Hope things are good ,keep posting

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Brent Bumgardner
bwbumgardner@aol.com
703.431.1776
Superconda Website

hogsandpythons Mar 08, 2009 12:10 PM

Have you considered taking him off light and heat for a short amount of time and then warming him up in hopes that his feeding response returns in April or something? I hate the thought of having to force-feed a snake that was once a great feeder. If the snake quit feeding due to the stress of being overpowered and manhandled by a cat, well, having a pinkymouse squirted down your throat is no picnic either.

This isn't exactly your situation, but I've read in posts elsewhere that sometimes a difficult hatchling can be brumated and will come out with a better feeding response.

It might be too late for this, but hognose snakes are known to survive some pretty long durations without feeding, and if force feeding is truly a last resort ...

Best of luck!
Adam

FireDrake Mar 09, 2009 07:01 PM

I brumated a young hog for 1 month who was off feed, when he came out, he started eating again.

That's what I do with corns too.

my $.02

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FireDrake Exotics
www.FireAndLilac.com

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