Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was just wondering is a Black back a morph or just a fancy normal? i had an arguement in the sites chat last night and i wanted to see what you guys.
Thanks,
Shane

They can be genetic, or just an abberancy on a particular animal. Only way to know for sure is to breed but it's pretty easy to tell just by looking which ones will most likely be more than just an abnormal pattern. Real Black Backs are nice. In my opinion, a 3 inch stripe doesn't count.

Even if it's genetic - it's still a normal.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Sorry to question you Tosha, but how do you figure it's still a normal if it's genetic? That's kind of like saying a spider or a pinstripe is a normal.

My female has proven to be genetic, and it adds an awesome look to really any other trait you breed it into. Obviously not a color mutation, but undeniably a pattern mutation, just like Spiders, Pins, etc.

There are a lot of phenotypical things that are genetic -- doesn't make them morphs. Blackbacks -- tho I love them (and most of my normals are genetic blackbacks) they are just normals.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

There are many variations to ball pythons...normals are typically considered 'common' versions of a ball python found naturally in the wild. But many co-dom and dominant traits (ie spiders, pins, fires, mojaves) are also found in animals in the wild...as adults, not just babies. Technically they could be wild types...though some do produce extremely unusual offspring when bred together.

It is possible many ball python 'normal' irregularities are 'phases' maybe by locale or just different versions. Corn snakes have three phases or locales... typical corn snake, Miami, Okeetee. If you breed them together, you get a mix of traits..but will still generally look like a typical corn..and for the most part corn snakes don't have co-doms, just recessive morphs, both pattern and color.

Technically all versions of an animal are 'genetic' in nature. To my knowledge, nobody has really done selective breeding to emphases traits that are not typically recessive etc. (ie bred for more yellow saddles, or browner background) within the normal range...

Whether black backs can be considered normals...maybe...but if they are indications of carrying the red axanthic trait, it could be a visible 'het' like a yellow belly. But I am sure some normals have a sold black back, just because ball python patterns are all different. Its hard to find two identical animals in the world, pattern wise.
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PHLdyPayne

black back that are genetic are actually morphs...but due to the lack of responce or ability to sell them for more usually...they are normals....it's the thinking like we just heard on here that prevents them from being anything......poor little critters...they must have low self esteem.......pity pity...

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..JY

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This post BY FAR has the least "....." I've ever seen from you. Had to double check to make sure who the author was.

TSK has an amazing genetic black back "three stripe". Joe Compel has a brown back that is genetic. there are not many that are genetic but there are a few. I personally love "black backs" or "brown backs" that are extreme.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Just because you buy a snake labeled as a "blackback" does NOT make it a morph. Now if you buy a "blackback" from a proven line or prove it out yourself thats different. Just like you cant go buy a reduced pattern and say it a morph. It has to be proven either buy the previous breeder or yourself. Until then it is nothing other than a "fancy" normal. Can it be genetic? Sure but how can you call it a morph if you dont understand how those genetics work? Is it Dom/Co-Dom, Recessive or just polygenetics? To call TSK's TRi-Stripe a blackback is just wrong.. i have never seen another "blackback" look like a tri stripe? Same goes for Joe Compels "brownbacks". They dont look like your typical "blackback". Does anyone know of any "blackback" lines that have been proven and can identify how the genetics are passed?

Thanks
Anthony

My line of black stripe has proven to be dominant. I've done 3 generations of black stripe x black stripe over the course of 8 clutches with no visible super being produced. I can say that the offspring from black stripe x black stripe do look better than black stripe x normal.

Here are some pics;

Black Stripe on the left, Het Red Axanthic on the right.

I may the result of this breeding ths year?

Corey

The last sentence should read the following;

"I may see the results of this breeding this year."

Regards,
Corey

np
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Just because you buy a snake labeled as a "blackback" does NOT make it a morph. Now if you buy a "blackback" from a proven line or prove it out yourself thats different. Just like you cant go buy a reduced pattern and say it a morph. It has to be proven either buy the previous breeder or yourself. Until then it is nothing other than a "fancy" normal. Can it be genetic? Sure but how can you call it a morph if you dont understand how those genetics work? Is it Dom/Co-Dom, Recessive or just polygenetics?

"exactly, Joe Compels is proven genetic. he has already proven it. it also has a super form."

To call TSK's TRi-Stripe a blackback is just wrong..

"ouch"

i have never seen another "blackback" look like a tri stripe?

" but it does have a black back and it is an extreme looking black back."

Same goes for Joe Compels "brownbacks". They dont look like your typical "blackback". Does anyone know of any "blackback" lines that have been proven and can identify how the genetics are passed?

Thanks
Anthony

does this look typical?

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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

TSK has referred to the animal as a "black stripe" on their website for years. black stripe aka black back aka reverse stripe are all names for this particular stripe effect. We were calling them by these names back in 93.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Corey Woods- Thanks for your response and congrats on PROVING out YOUR line of genetic Blackbacks.Gorgous animals!

Kyle-To answer your question about the snake you posted. No that does not look like a "typical" Blackback. And to touch on the TRI-STRIPE from TSK. Yes they did call it the Blackstripe until they proved it out. It is now called the TRI-STRIPE after they have proved it out to be simple recessive! So it is obviously differnt. And how were they calling the the BlackStripe or Blackback in 1993 when the didnt aquire the morph until 2003?

Thanks
Anthony

And how were they calling the the BlackStripe or Blackback in 1993 when the didnt aquire the morph until 2003?

I did NOT SAY THEY "meaning TSK" CAllED it a black stripe in 93. I said they were called black stripes aka black backs aka reverse stripes back in 93. i am very aware TSK aquired that animal in 03. it is posted on their website.

I dont understand your point.

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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

wow alot can happen while im at school. Thanks guys for all your respones and your help.
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1.0 normal
0.1 Black Back
1.0 Yellow Belly

Lol,My points have been made..pretty clearly.

Thanks
Anthony

LOL, I guess being genetic changes the name,
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

in and around 93...Kevin had imports on his tables....yes...$8 crap...and they were in deli cups and labeled and all....there were like...black back ball $500....striped ball....$300(non-genetic partial striped versions)....busy patterned types probably...low pattern types...stuff worth $8 for $200 to $500...

and we laughed and laughed....hahahahaaaaa...

.....other people were probably doing the same things,....none were proven to be anything...(still aren't really much)....and we didn't even want the $8 balls....not even for $8.....

.......then balls started coming in different colors...and $500 went up to like??? $15,000 for albinos.....hmmmm....

and we still got colubrids....!!! stand firm....no to balls...LOL

.....yea.....my friends still don't have any balls .....I got too many.......they don't make any money in snakes either....
wonder if I do????.......probably not actually.....!

...black backs...they are just like AZTEC CORNS...breed them and get good patterns or bad or no black back babies...even if you breed two BB together...you may get nuttin....I get them...alot of my breeders throw BB ....some are cool....some are not....my pastel BB with faded centers...screams...looks like a firefly...bred this year.....I forget what to.??>..that's not funny...(wrote it down somewhere)...

...so...BB is partially genetic....they throw alot of normal balls too......

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..JY

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i remember those days, i paid $500 each for both of my ghost at that time. only a handful of people knew what to look for. i purchased every unusual royal python i could find. people did laugh thats for sure. i remember one fairly well known breeder at that time who would actually laugh at my collection of ball pythons and call them trash animals. years later he wanted advice on which ghost to purchase for his collection. LOL
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

.....I never wanted balls..they sucked...
was too busy creating new corn morphs and all...
ratsnakes have more personality....garters always intrested me yet I only ever had a few....etc etc etc....

started balls because someone dropped a ball off and asked me to babysit it till he got back from FL in 3 weeks...pay me $1 a mouse and all....told before story....he never came back....she grew into more and more..breeding was so easy, had to breed, they were all huge girls....and you got them eating from people for $40......they dropped 10 eggs or so and babies sold usually......few grew and grew......

made my first ghost...waited 10 years for my first albino....still waiting for ALOT of morphs still......some will never come here..........

aaaaaaaaah the good ole days...when a new morph was sooo cool....now...they are...just another color...big deal...LOL...

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..JY

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Back before 93 I was pulling out the " weird balls " and making a killing selling them for $100 to $150.00 . I always liked the stripe stuff. Mike Ellard offered me the first anery ball . I blew it off like everyone else and he ended up trading it to Bob Clark for 27 adult blue tongue skinks . I remember Mike telling me the lizards were bone racks. I always looked at ball python morphs as snakes for people that don't like snakes.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

are you still in touch with Mike Ellard? i really lost track of him years ago. i do have a ghost male produced from two of his ghost lines.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Sure , I still talk to Mike. We've been friends since the early 80`s . I think Mike was also the first one to prove out the ghost morph. He sold them to Bell. It's cool you mentioned his bloodline. Many incredible animals have been brought to collectors via Mike Ellard.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

please tell Mike I said hello. he was always very nice to speak with. as you said, he had some very nice ghost and assorted other royal pythons. very nice man. great to hear he is still around.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

please tell RoyalVariations MIke's phone number so he can call the man and chat...like 'ole times'

...never heard of Mike....goes to show that people who start morhs aren't always the ones that get the credit for it...
I can relate to that....LOL

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..JY

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jyohe,

You are absolutely right,
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

you thought i was calling a black back a morph, LOL, no, i was speaking of the name describing their pattern. an animal can have a stripe and not be genetic. the name stripe means "it has a stripe". regarding it being genetic is totally different, on this we completely agree hence the reason i was not sure of your comments. any animal not proven genetic is not a morph but a black back can be a black back genetic or not, etc,

in my initial post i clearly pointed out two genetic black or brown back examples.

"TSK has an amazing genetic black back "three stripe". Joe Compel has a brown back that is genetic. there are not many that are genetic but there are a few. I personally love "black backs" or "brown backs" that are extreme."

where did i confuse you about which were morphs???????????
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

No confusion, were on the same page.

Thanks
Anthony

i was just about to say the same thing, have a great weekend and best of luck with your season,
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale