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Choices, Ignorance, and science

FR Mar 07, 2009 11:11 AM

Choices
I do not understand why folks are flat against supporting their captive snakes in a manner they are supported in nature. In this case, its about temps.

As a field herper whos been taking field data of decades, we observe that snakes use a wide range of temps, and do so year around and 24/7. That is, they find areas that will support those choices as much as POSSIBLE, in their habitat.

In winter, the breeders move to places where they can get to heat for as long as possible. In early summer, late spring, some move to other areas to seek prey or nesting. As conditions change, they move to areas that support their current need.

Then late fall, they move back to wintering sites, which always are the hottest areas in their local.

They pick different temps to accomadate different functions, shedding, growing, digesting prey, during certain stages of reproduction, to heal injuries, and I imagine to prevent or cure desease(to support the immune system) I say, I imagine, because we rarely find sick wild snakes. We do find injured snakes.

So that is why I question not supporting those natural needs.

Ignorance

I wonder if the horse or the cart comes first here. We often do not know or understand why a snake does what it does. I have to think that we know so very little about snakes and their behaviors and how they secure their needs in nature/or captivity.

It appears many here have to know why the snakes do or will do something BEFORE they attempt to allow those choices. That is, they feel they have to understand something, before they try something. Yes, I know this is very confusing. If it wasn't confusing, then we would all be supporting our animals in very different ways. To offer them choices is to test their behaviors. To test means to not know. Yet, most feel they have to know(why) before they will test something.

Here, people offer choices and if the animal does not use them, the way the people think the animal should use them, they simply say, it did not use it. The problem is, reptiles are not as consistant as mammals. They have temporary or timely needs for temps. And these behaviors are regulated by other more important behaviors. Such as survival. As in, they do not expose themselves to danger, from predators, to abverse condtions(to hot, to dry, to wet, to cold, etc) to achieve something that does not endanger their lifes. So here, some behaviors override other behaviors.

A small fossorial snake is not going to thermoregulate in open dry air. Its going to seek methods to thermorgulate that does not expose itself to adverse conditions.

So if we naively try to get a small fossorial snake to use a hot spot that is dry and open, and it does not use it. Our first responce is, it does not need(like) it, because it did not use it. When in fact, the real controls(reasons) were something different, it was a choice that is out of context with the behavior of that animal.

With varanids, we learned this and called these temps choices, "useable temps". That is, we have to learn to provide temps they(the individual in question) WOULD use, in a way they would use them. Not temp choices in a way they would not use them. Once we provided methods that allow that particular species to thermoregulate in a manner it understood(instinctually) They would thermoregulate and use a wide range of temps that fit their needs.

The point here is, we are very ignorant as to why they do what they do. Its a bit more complicated then we WANT. To physically make a choice is controlled by behavior and behavior is controlled by other behaviors. Survival behaviors seem to always override supportive behaviors.

Again, that we do not recognize survival behaviors, is our ignorance. Remember, ignorance means to not know, it does not mean we are stupid. Most here have a fear of being stupid. I admitt, I am very ignorant when it comes to reptile behavior, in fact, at times I am stupid. The reason I say that is, I keep trying to do what I already know is wrong. This is an ongoing problem. I keep working on limiting my stupidity. And try to act in a scientific manner, .

Science

Science is to ask questions, recieve results, then explain those results. Asking questions is to recieve data. Then that data needs to be repeated(quantified) then that data needs to be explained. Then that explination needs to be tested and that test needs to be repeated.

The problem is, in many cases here, keepers are prejudiced. Prejudice is to have a preconcieved direction or knowledge. Again, that is, we often think we know the answer before we actually do the test.

In this case, we often create a situation, then if the animal does not use it, call that the answer. When in reality, to test means to try many different situations and see which one it uses. Again the HUGE problem, BEHAVIOR. These animals have sets of behaviors, and some behaviors override others. Also we tend to forget that behavior is not simple math. That is, with behavior, you can recieve many different answers(results) from the same question(test)It becomes complex math, as there are trends and percentages, not a single answer.

So with science, we are suppose to ask questions, and keep asking questions. Not settle for the first simple thing that fills or fits our needs.

An example is, the recipe method of keeping, is without question a simple fix for our needs. Folks want to keep something alive or have it reproduce. Yes, you can follow a simple recipe to accomplish that. It is simply following instructions. Again, it will work with these animals(kingsnakes) But these snakes are NOT what or a reflection of this very basic methods. They ARE much more.

In nature these snakes are not the animal that sits in a box and eats, craps and breeds, in a very marginal way. They have many reproductive stradgies. They have many behavioral modes, They ARE COMPLEX in the way they use their enviornment. They have complex behaviors to exsist in a changing enviornment. Simply put, they have many ways to accomplish the same task, depending on current needs and overriding behaviors.

Science is to observe and explain. Not observe and to label. Or observe and to judge. Or to prejudice observations. Which is what I fear many biologists are now doing. Not all, just many.

As a field herper, the hardest part is that, TO NOT PREJUDICE your observations. Our job is to collect data in a certain field, as in, foraging, reproduction, range size, habitat type, etc and NOT PREJUDICE that data. Its very hard to do.

To make you think a little bit, most all field studies are a slice of an animals life, or worse, a second of a species history. They are commonly very short in time and lacking in actual data. Its about like taking a second or minute of your life, then explaining with accuracy your entire life.

Again, this post of to cause people to think, to use that stuff between your ears. Cheers and have fun with it(the stuff between your ears).

Replies (15)

FR Mar 07, 2009 11:20 AM

more pics, its a nesting sequence. i have another sequence of a trio nesting, that is two gravid females and a male, all digging and helping eachother nesting(successfully).

The funny part is, science says they do not do this, as they are solitary and anti social. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm these animals must have read a different paper. Cheers

joecop Mar 07, 2009 11:57 PM

All I am going to say is thank you for posting the pics FR. Good job.

tspuckler Mar 07, 2009 01:30 PM

If you're so bent on these ideas, why don't you post pictures of your king snake setups?

Tim

MikeRusso Mar 07, 2009 01:54 PM

This question was asked and answered weeks ago.. FR is no longer keeping kingsnakes on large scale, he is not able to post pic's of his multi-level enclosures because he no longer uses this type of enclosure.

In my opinion this ongoing fight is plain old silly and detrimental to the longevity of this forum. Feel free to keep your snakes in whatever manner works for you and your animals.

~ Mike Russo

FR Mar 07, 2009 02:18 PM

First, this is should not be a fight, it should be an option. folks should not have to fight to hear about other ways to keep snakes.

The problem is, some folks feel they HAVE TO DEFEND, what they do. sincerely, I don't care what they do.

What I care about is what the snakes do. This is why I keep on with this train of thought.

If you actually look at these threads, its others that keep jumping in on threads that are different from what they do or defend. There are those here that want more for their captives.

That is healthy for this forum. Why not let those who want this, talk about it? or test out this stuff? Those are are opposed to letting the snakes make their own choices, are the ones who fight tooth and claw.

The truth is, even with my crappy cages, I do not have the problems I see here. But then, I let the snakes take care of that. Cheers

jyohe Mar 07, 2009 05:28 PM

.......I made the wrong choice....I started to read ...LOL

.....only way we could duplicate the natural settings for snakes...would be to take a whole room.....pump in outside air for temp control....add heat lights, sun-lights (still not the real sun)...real dirt and real water flowing in a pond / creek situation with replaced water at least daily....with proper mineral content also.....light would have to acutally move on angle along room......at closer and farthest distances possible........real holes in dirt, boards,plants, tin,logs ,bark and all etc etc.....warmer temps as needed and cooler as needed ....I guess with warmed dirt and rocks and underground tunnels....etc etc etc

......all this in one room for a couple snakes that wouldn't eat each other.....

...what I got from the top I read of this till I got tired of it......small snakes and hot spots in the dry open.....so....moist substrate with real rock hides........etc etc etc.......

I heat a whole room....I try for 82 at my chin level...all year....light cycle goes from 14 hr and more summer to like 10 hr winter.....temps fluctuate....humidity goes way up summer way down winter...to the point I dump water in cages that have cypress(balls), and on floor even( room ) ......I have balls on one shelf and maybe corn right below it....balls at average 78 degrees and milks ,kings ,corns...right at same levels...some balls have heat....maybe half....baby balls top shelves...mountain kings bottom....(you know, even knobs hate the cold...they want 82 degrees....)....caves, hondos colder...etc etc etc...

......paper ,in a box, with a water bowl...sucks to be them....they eat and breed and look out the front....

kinda like the millions in jail in the US.......sucks to be them too........

....their life sucks...(snakes )...but they wouldn't exsist if we didn't breed them...........

...........now I get lost in my own posts...............
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..JY

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FR Mar 07, 2009 07:43 PM

Your missing the whole point. You are thinking all or nothing. Why does it have to be that?

How about taking what we can take, like temp choices. Then humidity choices. Its easy to offer those, both are not a huge range. For temps, 70F to 100F is good, 65F to 105F is great. Its kinda like room temperature and add a small warm area in one corner. Easy to do.

With humidity, place a tupperware full of water and drill holes in the top and allow humidity to escage. Hmmmmmmmmmmm easy enough, control the amount of air that escapes the cage by blocking off screen or wire tops. Again easy enough. Snakes like humidity, without wettness, which is a weird concept. They normally find places in nature that are humid and dry. Something like 50 to 70 percent is great.

We all know, wettness can cause problems.

None of this is hard to do. Its easy and can be done in a million ways. It even can be done in shoeboxes. althought, the larger the cage the easier it is to do. A friend of mine puts little lites outside his tanks, focusing on a corner of the tank. That way it heats up the corner and not the cage. Works great.

Of course you can take more from nature, maybe colors or feels, like what kind of substrate does a species use. You do not most species are very specific about what they use.

I guess the above is too much work for a snake. hmmmmmmmmm why do you keep them? really, why? Cheers

jyohe Mar 07, 2009 09:03 PM

I keep them because I like them...and I like money

fishing,hunting,trapping,boating,car races,horse riding,fox hunting,strip clubs,skiing water or snow, rodeo,cicus performer,,,whatever your hobbies are they cost money....now I like to hunt but quit...do snakes and rodents too much and hunting is just a pain at times...fishing I still do and wish it were more...mycological forays are cheap yet I don't have enough time for them usually......etc etc etc....yet keeping and breeding snakes and mice will make them pay for themselves and have enough extra to go like...chinese buffets ...so I can set and eat a couple dozen's frog's legs....mmmmmmm...feel like a canibal....

really....

...........I DO try somewhat....if they let me....they act stupid and wreck the cage everyday...they get what they won't destroy......I DO have temporalis and triangulum(1) and syspila and multistrata in boxes with thick aspen....water...a feeding bowl...they know what it is and look for food in it...and cork bark ....one even has some oak leaves in it...been there for over a year (the leaves).....they dig and make tunnels and look like they have more fun than on paper....

balls have aspen or cypress depending on type of rack....Ballroom Raxx from BoaPhile have aspen....open topped hommade raxx have cypress usually so I can dump a quart of water in them......they have a piece of cork...most of my snakes have cork.....and natural bedding if possible.....baby balls just make a mess too often...they get paper and cork and a water bowl....if they eat...they eat well....

as for making a shoebox or sweater box temp variated....it's not enough room to make it vary enough to try or matter...the room is one temp at one level....all we can do is switch the boxes from upper to lower levels at different times of the year...

as for food...I feed my rodents oats,corn,dog food and lab chow..add sunflower seeds,millet,..bones...veggies and sweet potatoe...hamsters also get white potatoe...it varies the diet and makes them happy...they are spoiled way beyond what normal lab stock should be fed....trust me...they know what the sounds of feeding are....they have all been treated to pig chow, trout chow, even monkey buiscits already,, milkbones,insects, wild greens ....hay, straw bedding or shredded paper...leaves ......aaah.....

....so I DO spoil my stuff.....I have filled box with real dirt as substrate...and ad fans in summer for better heat transfer throughout the room....(my room gets to 148% humidity I bet)..really....LOL.........so.....

........I get it....they still feel like a snake in a box...I don't care what we do....yet in the wild they eat when they can and lay around in holes...the same holes all the time......so they don't have that much imagination...snakes have proven to be pretty dumb to us at times....(even if they do think...)(or think ahead)....

...
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..JY

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snake_bit Mar 08, 2009 09:52 PM

"but they wouldn't exsist if we didn't breed them"
?
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

jyohe Mar 09, 2009 04:29 PM

if we never bred the snakes to get the babies...all the babies would not exist........so being alive with paper and a water bowl......is better than not being?.........right......

......
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..J Yohe ....49 in 19 days ! wow...

.

snake_bit Mar 09, 2009 10:10 PM

" but they wouldn't exist if we didn't breed them "

They have done fine for a million years w/o me breeding them
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

tspuckler Mar 07, 2009 03:14 PM

Thanks Mike,

I didn't know that. I've stopped paying much attention to these posts because I realized they're being made by someone who wants attention, but is unwilling to show how snakes (in their opinion) should be properly kept.

I agree with you on the points you made.

Tim

Jason Nelson Mar 08, 2009 01:07 PM

FR

You should check out the post on the Rat snake forum, its under suboc caging. You could destroy his thoughs and cage.

Mean while I am going to slit my throat.

Jason

viandy Mar 08, 2009 07:40 PM

I did have the choice to leave some snakes I got well enough alone.
I treated them for parasites and look what came up.

I may be rebelling, it's just that I think the snake will do better without these in it.

-----
give up television - 100% cold turkey. Leave what isn't real and go to what is real.
Spend time with nature, see the ground and the sky, feel your place on this earth,
see the trees, the plants, birds, animals, feel their life. And feel your own life.
Dr. William Pierce (paraphrased)

snake_bit Mar 08, 2009 09:57 PM

Viandy tell us more about the snake that coughed that up.
Reminds me of something Survivorman had for lunch a few weeks back
-----
"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

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