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Sick King Snake...

ramble_on Mar 08, 2009 01:41 PM

I'm fairly new to owning reptiles and right now my California King snake seems really sick. I usually feed him 2 pinkies (he's just a little guy) every 10 days. He hasn't eaten in about 3 weeks, he's really weak and doesn't cruise around his tank anymore. He can barely hang on to my hand when I take him out to play and he has this weird brown dry spot on his head that doesn't seem to go away.

It seems he's pooped, but since he hasn't eaten there's really nothing left in him to pass.

As a big lover of animals I'm seeking advice and help, I can't stand to see him suffer and want to make him better as soon as possible.

Much appreciated.
Rach

Replies (26)

Bluerosy Mar 08, 2009 02:21 PM

Get a syringe and plastic tubing and force feed him some Gerber (chicken or lamb)baby food. You can also add some repti-cal or othe calcium/vit supplement to the baby food.

Sometimes a little 'pick me up' is all they need to start feeding. Don't wait to loong!

Bluerosy Mar 08, 2009 02:30 PM

You also need to think what got your snake to this point. I think you have been feeding pinkies to long when the snake should be on fuzzies or something larger. Pinkies offer hardly any nutrition and are mostly made up of water. Your snake must have been born last summer or early fall, so that means it is malnutritioned.

Here is a kingsnake that I raised that is 9 months old.

Start feeding larger meals that contain some protein and calcium and do be afraid to feed to large a meal (seems to be a phobia amonst people here). If the fuzzy is to large, it will just spit it out.

ramble_on Mar 08, 2009 03:06 PM

THAT'S A 9 MONTH OLD CALIKING?! My guy is maybe the width around of a pencil and hasn't grown in a year since I got him. He is NO WHERE NEAR that size. I thought it would take him years and years to get big, but apparently not?! He's only about a foot and a half at the most. Did I maybe just get a runt?

Now the feeding thing, I noticed that he was kinda sick for awhile and thought it was just because he wasn't eating enough. I then fed him 2 pinkies in a row, I can't feed him anything else cause he can't get his little mouth around it. I'm gonna try the syringe feeding.

I'm still shocked at how big that 9 month old snake is when my guy could literally fit in your jeans pocket......Wowza. What's up with that?!

snake_bit Mar 08, 2009 04:22 PM

I dont believe that snake is 9 mths old either
rach tell us more about your snake that you think is sick.Any photos?how old is it? how many times has it eaten?The part where you say the snake is weak is a bad sign but three weeks of no food is not unusual if it has eaten 12 times before that.
This snake is 8 mths old and has eaten maybe 20 meals and is doing fine.



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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

ramble_on Mar 08, 2009 05:05 PM

Okay, that sized snake makes MUCH more sense. That's the size of my little guy and I've had him for a bit over a year. He's eaten prolly 20 times or more in his lifetime. He was usually a pretty active snake cruisin' in the tank and what have you, but in the past month he's been getting really weak, like can't even hold on to my finger's weak. He doesn't really do much, just kinda lay's there. He shed the last time in October 2008, I'm pretty sure he poo'd not too long ago and he doesn't have an agressive bone in his body. He might not be feeling well, but still shows no signs that he wants to nip or bite. His eyes aren't cloudy, he has a few normal dry patches of skin, and his skin is pretty shiny and healthy looking all things considered. He definately feels underweight from what he used to be. The only thing that is unusual just by looking at him is one patch of brown skin on his head. I'm perplexed on the weakness thing.

I read the mites thread and I immediately checked for mites. No mites. I change his water regularly, I love him A LOT and this mama's worried. If anyone has a clue. Throw it out there.

Rach

hobbes992 Mar 08, 2009 05:52 PM

From all the reading I've been... reading, it seems like feeding a baby every 10 days is not enough for adequate growth, depending on the temp gradient in your tank. Growing snakes (pre-sexually mature) can potentially eat every 2-3 days if you're providing enough heat for proper digestion. I just started my splendida on fuzzies. She is about 16 inches long and has the girth of approximately a nickel at the widest point. She took the fuzzy, no problemo. Are you heating the food up enough properly? I noticed that when the pinkies weren't warm enough my snake usually refused when I first got them. You should try heating the mice up in a ziplock filled with hot hot hot water. Let it sit in there for a little under a minute. Dangling the prey infront of the snake also helps. And if you can get it to eat one, you should have another pinky on standby and try to get it to eat that one as well. Please avoid force feeding at all costs before trying everything else first.

Another thing, how large is the tank you keep your snake in? Baby captive kings get more stressed if they are kept in a large tank (more than 10 gallons). I discovered this the hard way. I initially kept my splendida when she was about 8 inches in a 20 gallon tank. She refused to eat for almost three weeks. On advice from smart people in this forum I switched her to a 5 gallon, and she ate the the day after she was in her new tank. I also switched from a heat lamp to an under tank heater and changed the substrate from aspen to shredded paper towel.

People underestimate the effect of environmental factors on their kings sometimes. Aspen was keeping not allowing for ANY humidity to develop in my tank, paper towels on the other hand did. I'm not a big breeder, I'm just a guy with two kings that simply won't stop eating

joecop Mar 08, 2009 05:54 PM

Sounds like he could be dehydrated. What is the humidity like in his cage? Do you ever see him drinking water? You could try placing his head in the water bowl and see if he drinks.

snake_bit Mar 08, 2009 06:23 PM

good advice Joe and maybe she can provide a moist hide box as well as a dry one..And use live food to entice him to eat more
I wish she had a digital camera I want to see the dry head thing
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

ramble_on Mar 08, 2009 06:34 PM

I do the soaking of the pinkies thing in the hot hot hot water. In the year I've had him he's been in the same 20 gallon tank and was a happy little guy that ate often. One guy mentioned that his snake was "the size of a nickel at its greatest girth". Mine however is as thick a Sharpie marker at its largest girth, I don't think my guy could physically get it down if he tried. I will however try it. I'll do anything to help him out.

I have a cave for him and big water bowl and a heat lamp. I don't have a heating pad for him. I don't think that's the issue at all.

I'm gonna try to feed him another pinkie and see how that works out. I'll even dangle the thing in front of him.

I am an official technological retard that does own a camera and can download them to my pc, but that's the extent of my knowledge. How do you post pics up here?

Great advice everyone! Thank you so much. I really really REALLY appreciate it.

Cheers,
Rach

Rach

joecop Mar 08, 2009 07:27 PM

If you have a heat lamp and a screen top glass aquarium then dehydration could VERY WELL be the problem. Not sure if this is your first winter with the snake but I think it probably is. Where are you located? The humidity in my house in the winter is sometimes below 20 percent without a humidifier. If it is a glass tank and has a sliding sreen that snaps you can turn the tank on its side and cover 3/4 of the screen with a towel or use plastic and duct tape. Young snakes dehydrate very easily. Do you have a moist hide like Doug was talking about?

Bluerosy Mar 08, 2009 07:55 PM

1) if it as think as a shapie then it needs to be on hoppers. Fuzzies are even to small.

2) get rid of the overhead heat and use undertank heat only.

Your snake is not only malnutritioned but also possibly dehydrated. looks like my fist suggestion of force feeding baby food might be correct.

here is some info:

There are many methods and systems available, but this has worked for me for many years. I prefer it for feeding over the pinky pump for two main reasons: first it is a lot cheaper and easier to clean up; second I don't like having to squish up mice, nor do I like the lumps which are inherent in the process, and which occasionally jam the tube.
The system is simple: a syringe of the appropriate size with a catheter tube of the appropriate size affixed to the nipple on the syringe. Syringes I get from drug stores or feed stores. The catheters I get at a medical supply house. The syringes cost $0.25 to $0.80, depending on size. The catheter tubes cost $1.97 to $4.50 (appx) depending on size. This beats the heck out of paying $75 or so for a pinky pump.
NOTE: some syringes have a "cage" around the nipple, which makes it harder to get the tube on. Try to find syringes with just the nipple, no ring around it.

I just cut off a piece of the catheter tube to the desired length and affix to the syringe. It is sometimes necessary to expand the end of the tube a bit so that it will fit over the nipple on the syringe. To do this I use the larger round tip on my soldering iron. Just warm up the soldering iron a bit or you willl melt the tubing, then insert the tip of the tubeing over the tip of the soldering iron and gently slide it up until a sufficient portion of the tube has been enlarged. I like to run the warmed portion under water before removing so it doesn't shrink back up.


The tubes in the picture are #8 catheter tube. Which is my preferred type, is a #8 FR (for French) feeding tube. There are many types of catheters, but avoid the rubber ones and go with the PVC tubing. My local medical supply house lets me browse - I hope yours is as nice. The Syringes in the top picture are 12 CC and 6 CC.

The picture above is a close-up of the tips. The red tip has been cut from a length of tubing and the end angled for easier insertion into the mouth of the snake. The sharp tip resulting from slicing it at an angle has been smoothed off, slightly rounded. In the clear tip, the holes can be seen as pointed to by the white lines.

The syringe in the bottom picture is 35 CC, obviously for larger snakes. I also have a 65 CC tube, but haven't had to use it yet. It is eiterh a #16 or #18 FR catheter, 3/16 inch outside diameter. As the nunber gets larger, so does the tube diameter. I like the clear tubes which have a rounded end with slots in it - it doesn't require cutting and the rounded end is less likely to harm the animal.

Make sure that you don't put the tube too far down the snake. Get it past the throat and into the stomach, but don't go far enough to puncture the stomach. It is usually fairly easy to get the tube into the snake (other than those which like to twist and coil) but it must be done gently and carefully, using very little pressure. If you aren't sure, take it out and start over again. I find that if I get the tip of the tube into the tongue slot in the front of the mouth and gently work it, they will open up. I hold the snake behind and on the sides of the head for control. With larger snakes it helps to have someone to control the body. I also use a bit of cooking oil on the tube so it will slide in more easily. Then gently slide the tube down the snake until it is in far enough, then gently depress the plunger until the desired amount of food or medication has been administered.

NOTE: use very little pressure. I barely grip the tube. If I feel ANY reistance, I pull it out and start again. Baby snakes particularly are fragile. Also, it is possible to get it into a lung, which is not a good thing.

Once you have adminstered a sufficient amount, gently pull out the tube and set the snake down and let it crawl around. Once in a while one will regurgitate, but it doesn't happen often. DO NOT put in too much. For an 8 inch snake I usually start off with 1/2 CC. If it seems that it can take a bit more, next time I increase the amount. Please, don't expect to see a lump as you do when you feed them a rodent. If you put in enough to see a lump, you have either put in too much or have filled a lung.

Because of the nature of the food, it will be rapidly digested. You should be able to repeat in every day, but why? I consider pumping to be a last resort for a non-feeder, to keep it alive. I always offer rodents again before tubing again.

For food I prefer to use Gerber's beef baby food. One jar is equivalent in bulk to around 35 pinkies. Other types such as turkey and pork are also available. I add in a bit of osteoform, but you can use finely powdered calcium/vitamins to suit yourself. I spoon out a bit of the baby food into a cup, add in the suppliments and then add JUST A BIT of water, bit by bit, until is is a sufficient consistency. You will want to play around a bit until you get it where you want it. I like it liquid enough so that a clump will slide off the end of a spoon and roll down into the syringe. I don't like it too liquid, though.

When you have the mixture into the syringe (loaded with the open end of the syringe up (I assume you took the plunger out) then put the plunger in just a bit (moistening the tip of the plunger helps.) Then tunt the syringe so the tube is up and tap the syringe to get the mixture to the bottom, then depress the plunger until the mixture begins to come out the tip of the catheter - to remove the air.

Bluerosy Mar 08, 2009 08:04 PM

woops, here is the pic of the larger syringe used for adult snakes:

joecop Mar 08, 2009 09:02 PM

I thought I was special in that I use the EXACT same method for my hard feeders, right down to the baby food. I got my tubing last year from the hospital when I had surgery. The nurse just gave me the IV tubing after it was done. Syringes can be purchased at Tractor Supply by the dozen!

snake_bit Mar 08, 2009 09:25 PM

Thanks for posting this.I wish we had more people trying to help others here and less people bickering.
Take a look at these


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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

snake_bit Mar 08, 2009 08:18 PM

- 20 gallon tank? wow thats way too large I use a 5"W x 8"L x 3"H disposable chinese food container for my snakes up to a year old but you may want to try a 2 or 5 gal tank.I use 20 gal tanks on 4 foot snakes.
]

- thick a Sharpie marker? you should be using large pinkies(about 3- 4 days old or small fuzzies and try to get live ones and he will eat more often
- cave ? I believe the hide box should only be as big as the snake. He does not like head room.Caves are for bears I use a one or two ounce soy sauce container for my 8 mth old chain king and its a very tight squeeze.I have damp newspaper in there with him.
- heat lamp? I dont know anything about those but make sure your tank is not too dry

- camera ?Open a photobucket account and we will show you how to post a pic.Its free http://photobucket.com/
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

bizkit421 Mar 08, 2009 09:01 PM

My Florida king has been in a 20 gallon long from the day I got him without a single problem and my albino cal king was in a 20 tall without a problem... I think the amount and type of bedding being used and sufficent hides are way more important then cage size... I offer 3-4 inches of aspen bedding in the bottom of my cages and barely see the kings in their hids, they always burrow instead...

For that matter, if the snake has eaten previously and and has always been in the bigger tank, then I'd be more concerned about dehydration, especially considering the time of year...
-----
~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

snake_bit Mar 08, 2009 09:22 PM

WE wont ask what or who you feed to Fluffy.
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

bizkit421 Mar 09, 2009 10:33 AM

Only the people that p*ss me off...

Seriously though, the local bait shop sells minnows cheap, so I buy them 6 dozen at a time and put in the tank with her and she eats as she gets hungry... My friends hate that I do that though, because they never get to see her eat...

To keep it on topic....

Image
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

Bluerosy Mar 08, 2009 06:32 PM

I dont believe that snake is 9 mths old either

Yes that is a 9 month snake. It is not a Cal king but an Eastern x Florida king (also a natural intergrade zone)and they do get bigger and grow faster than a Cal king. Anyone that knows me knows I have a large collection of kings and make a living by breeding.

I have been telling people on here for years about feeding their snake LARGER meals and more frequently. Most IMO are borderline starving their snakes on a once a week diet of a pinky or two. I don't even consider a pinky as food for a snake (heck in the wild most cal kings will eat another snake or lizards as their first meals). They need the calcium and other things to get a growth spurt to survive. The growth spurt is what it is all about and that means getting your new borns on fuzzies asap. After fuzzies get them on hoppers asap, and so on..

MikeRusso Mar 08, 2009 06:39 PM

I agree 100%!!!

~ Mike Russo

viborero Mar 08, 2009 07:39 PM

People starve their snakes. I might not feed as much as you, but I try to feed at least twice a week.
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Diego

SWCHR

lytlesnake Mar 09, 2009 01:16 AM

I've read through the whole thread. I noticed you said that you soak the pinkies in hot water. If you're feeding frozen pinkies, you want to soak them in warm water, not hot water. Hot water can literally cook a pinkie. You want to thaw the pinkie, not cook it. Put it in warm water for 10-15 minutes before feeding. The snake should eat every 3-4 days.

An overhead lamp is not the best choice of heat. As someone pointed out, the lamp is likely making the enclosure overly dry. You want to get a small UTH (Under Tank Heater) pad that sticks to the underside of the aquarium. I recommend an 8-watt UTH with a thermostat or rheostat to keep it from getting too hot. Put the UTH off to one side of the tank so there is a hot side and a cool side.

Start with the temperature controller turned down pretty low. Let the UTH heat up for a few hours, while measuring the temperature on the inner surface of the tank with a thermometer. Turn the heat up a little bit and wait half an hour for it to stabilize. Repeat this step until the temperature reaches 88-90 degrees. Now your snake has proper belly heating. You should remove the heat lamp for now.

The dry head thing sounds to me like the snake is dehydrated and trying to shed, but can't due to the low humidity. Put about 3/4 of an inch of warm water in a 6 or 15 qt. tupperware container and soak the snake in there. Put him in and put the lid on. Watch him while he's soaking. Swimming around or trying to escape are normal, but if he rolls on his back, remove him immediately. Since you said he's weak, just soak him for 5 minutes the first time. The water gets cold pretty fast anyway. You definitely don't want to use hot water here. Make sure it's warm, but not hot.

The soaking may loosen up the snake's skin. It may take a few soaks. If so, let him rest several hours between soaks. You can use tweezers to help remove the skin... carefully. Even if you don't see the skin starting to loosen, soaking at least once should help to hydrate the snake.

Do the soaking thing asap... like today. If you can afford the UTH, temp controller and thermometer, you should get those asap too. A live pinkie or two wouldn't hurt. Best of luck!

snake_bit Mar 09, 2009 07:10 AM

This may help.

. . . . . .
-----
"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

joecop Mar 09, 2009 04:30 PM

You are probably tired of us by now but listen, you can also take a small empty pill bottle or appropriate sized bottle or enclosed container and rinse it out, and then place some damp paper towels inside and do the same proceedure if you are afraid of the snake being in the water. One more thing, if you do start peeling the skin ALWAYS pull in the direction of the tail. You will damage the snakes good skin if you go the other way.

zach_whitman Mar 09, 2009 05:40 PM

Not eating is a symptom of another problem it is not a disease in itself. Tell us exactly about your set up. Bluerosy is right your snake should be MUCH bigger than it is. The snake he posted was not a cal king. A cal king should EASILY be 2 feet by its first birthday. With excellent conditions and lots of food they can breed at 18 months. Like I said, your snake is absolutely malnourished the question is why?

I suspect a few things. First of all a snake that size should be eating every 3-4 days. If you can get him feeding again, FEED HIM MORE. Move him up to fuzzies immediately. A HATCHLING king can take a large pinky straight out of the egg. If he does not want to eat it is because he does not have appropriate conditions for digestion. You say you don't have a heat pad on the tank. How cold does it get at night? You need to give us some exact temps. I suspect that is your biggest problem.

Another problem may be dehydration. Screen topped tanks with heat lights are notorious for desicating snakes. What king of substrate do you use. Do you live in a dry climate?

If you correct your husbandry and he still won't eat that is not a good sign. You will need to force feed him. Personally I would buy a pinky pump, but there are lots of ways to force feed. Look it up. DO NOT FORCE FEED UNTIL YOU HAVE CORRECTED THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM OR YOU COULD KILL IT.

I visit to a vet would not be a bad idea either. The weakness you describe when handling is a snake that is on deaths doorstep. please ACT FAST.

Good luck.

viborero Mar 09, 2009 10:18 PM

....the best reply so far. This is some good advice right here.
-----
Diego

SWCHR

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