Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My beardie is having a hard time going poo. I have been soaking him every day. Before I take him to a vet, I'd like to try syringe feeding him some applesauce with olive oil, which I hear works like a laxative.

I've never force-fed him before, and I'm really paranoid. I don't want to hurt him. How should I hold him? How should I get his mouth open? I'm a total beginner at this, so any info would be awesome!

Thanks.

crazyforherps
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Well first off before you start pushing food down your beardies throat lets get more information. What are your heat temps? Basking and air. Also maybe a photo of your setup. If you are not giving him the proper heating he will not pooh. Although the apple sauce thing may work I would say soaking him should do the trick and since you have been doing that and its not I figure your setup might be part of the problem. What are you using for lighting too while you are at it. Oh and how much food has he been eating and how long has he not gone?

How old is your dragon? 1-2 years
How long have you had your dragon? Got him Monday, January 5th, 2009
How long is your dragon? Probably around 17"
What is the sex of your dragon? Male
What size enclosure do you have your dragon in? 4x2x2' custom viv
What type substrate do you have on the bottom of your tank? tile
Do you use UVB lights? Yes
If so, Is it a coil, compact, fluorescent tube, or Mercury Vapor bulb? Tube
What is the brand name and number of your bulb? Wattage (if MVB)? ZooMed, ReptiSun 10.0, 24"
How old is your UVB bulb? Several weeks old Not time to be replaced yet!
How close can your dragon get to the UVB? something around 9"
Do you use a separate basking bulb? What kind and what is the wattage? Yep, a 50w halogen and a 60w CHE
What are the basking temps? 100-103*F
What is the cool side temp? 78-82*F
Do you take the temps with a stick on thermometer, a digital thermometer with a wire and a probe end or a temp gun? Digital with a probe
Where exactly are you taking your basking temps? Probe is on the highest point of his basking rock, directly under the halogen bulb
Do you use a heat rock or heat pad? No
What do you feed your dragon? Please be specific. 60 adult crix per week, 20 mealies per week, salads every day
How often do you feed and what time do you feed (morning, afternoon, night)? Once a day, usually around 3-5:00pm
Do you gutload (feed) your crickets, worms, etc? Yes, I feed the crix with beardie food pellets.
Do you use vitamin or calcium supplements? What brand(s)? Yes, RepCal's herptivite and phosphorous-free calcium with D3
Is your dragon having regular bowel movements (poops)? Once a day, sometimes 2
Do you bath your dragon? How often? Every week; more often when he's in shed
Do you mist your dragon or offer water other than in the bath? I give him a large water bowl
Does your dragon share an enclosure with another dragon? No
Have you gotten a vet check and fecal done? No

He really pooed on Sunday. Since then I have found little bits around his enclosure, but not enough. I fed him 8 large crickets on Monday. Then I felt a little lump in his tummy and I haven't fed him anything but collard greens since then, for fear of making it worse.
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The lump could be an impaction problem...

That's what I was thinking. The lump is barely noticable, though, so I'm not going to take him to the vet just yet. I've been soaking him every day, massaging him, and today I got some applesauce and olive oil in him.
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I'd get rid of the CHE and get his basking spot a little hotter with a more powerful bulb. What is the hot side ambient temp.? I'm very skeptical that there's an impaction issue and think your overreacting. A week is not a tremendously long time between bowel movements especially since your basking temp. is on the low side. Plus you aren't feeding him anything that could possibly have caused an impaction.

I assume you mean last Sunday (March 1st), not just yesterday, was when he last had a bowel movement.

I would increase the basking temp so it reaches about 120F or a bit higher at the very top of his basking area. Make sure his basking area is wide and sloped, so he can choose how hot he wants to bask in. The top most accessible basking area should be 120F or even higher, with lower areas falling in the range of 100-120F so your dragon can choose what temps he needs.

Cut out the mealies, not worth it in my opinion for dragons. Better off feeding superworms instead. Silkworms, butterworms, hornworms and roaches can also be offered for variety.

I also wouldn't worry about him not pooping for a week. Some dragons like to hang onto it even while eating normally. My dragon goes about once a week and its a huge amount with plenty of fluids and shaped stool (not runny or hard) as dragon poop should be. Urates as well.

If your dragon is straining and trying to poop but little or nothing is coming out, that is a sign of impaction or other problem. If he just hasn't gone and is healthy and active otherwise, there shouldn't be any concern.

Make sure he gets a mixed salad as well, not just collard greens. Dragons need variety in their diets. Collard greens, mustard greens, dandelion greens, endive, escaroli, etc should be mixed and offered. I like to use one to three staple greens (the first 3 are good staple greens) and one or two different greens (endive, escaroli, kale (sparingly), and other greens/vegetables) and rotate the others...trying for as much variety as I can.
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PHLdyPayne

Personally I think a 120 basking spot is too hot. If you are going to consider it be sure that you can keep the cool side of the enclosure in the 80-82 range. Most enclosures cannot accomplish this and therefore you have a high risk of overheating your dragon.

BDlvr makes a good point that the overall tempurature in your enclosure getting to hot could become problematic . However if you are achieving cool side temps of "78-82*F" in your current set up with the 50 W halogen then do not get a stronger bulb. Instead, simply elevate your bask a few inches (or however many inches it takes) to achieve a higher bask spot (i would aim for atleast 120). This way you can provide a higher bask temp. and still keep your cool side between 78-82.

Of course it is impossible to tell why your dragon is not pooping over the internet, however it is pretty safe to say that a bask spot of 100-103 is part of the cause. Make sure he/she is hydrated and has a good tempt gradient and your problem will likely fix itself. If problems are still present after you have improved husbandry, then think about seeing a vet. Thanks.
-Ryan

The whole subject of temperatures drives me insane. I did so much reading before I adopted Budo. I own 2 beardie books and at least 15 pages of internet care sheet print-outs. And every single one has different temperature reccommendations. I'm not angry at anybody, I understand that we have no way of getting into beardies' heads and figuring out exactly what temperatures they need. I've heard as low as 95* for the basking spot and as high as 115* for adult beardies. I ended up taking the average temperature from everything I've read and adjusting it depending on how much time he spends on the basking spot. With the basking spot at 100-103*, Budo will bask for an hour or so after meals, baths, or free roam, then hang out in the middle or the cool end of his enclosure. I'd say he spends about 50% of the day on the basking spot, or maybe more.

And I usually do offer him a wide variety of greens. At the moment, I was down to collards and now the collards are starting to go bad. I'm going out shopping for him today or tomorrow. Any suggestions on what greens to get? I know what's healthy and everything, but are there any types of greens that help bowel movements?

There is definitely a small, hard lump in his tummy. I'm pretty sure its impaction, though I have been known to overreact. Over the past week, I have found extremely small amounts of feces in his enclosure.

I've been bathing him every day, massaging his stomach, and giving him applesauce with olive oil. He has now developed stress marks on his underside that never seem to go away, probably because he is uncomfortable. At what point do you think I should bring him in to a vet?
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If Robyn has any fault it lies within clarifying the use of a 130/84 temp gradient. It's really not a fault either, he puts endless effort in to make people understand.

When Robyn suggests using a 130 degree basking temp he is strictly talking a surface temperature. It is important to know the difference.

Many people unknowingly give their dragons access to hotspots of 120,130(surface) maybe higher. Fixed digital thermometers or digi's with attached probes will not read a surface temperature accurately. So, if a poster with a digi probe claims to have a 100 degree hotspot, he is reading the air temp at the hotspot. Use a temp gun on the same area and you will be seeing 120,130, and higher.

It's the same principle as you point out BDlvr...the 90 degree day but the ground is much hotter on your feet.

Thanks. That really clears things up. I was going to say that sounds really weird. I unfortunately do not have a tempgun, but I'm hoping to get one soon.
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No a probe in the center of the light is measuring the surface temperature of it's own surface. Therefore it is a reliable way of measuring the surface temp. of the basking spot. All my cages have probes in the center of the basking spots to give me constant readings of the basking spot temp. their readings are the same as it I temp. gun it.

To measure ambient temp. the probe should be placed out of the light the same way you place an outdoor thermometer in the shade outside.

The probe is not reading the surface of it's own surface. The probe is measuring electrical resistance against a thermistor to determine an AIR temperature. Digital thermometers do not read an accurate surface temperature. They are not designed to do so.

A temp gun will read a surface temperature very accurately. That is what they are designed for.

There is a difference and it's important to understand.

You don't seem to understand.

The probe is reading approximately the temperature of the plastic that surrounds the resistor. If it is in the light that would be approximately the surface temperature of the surface it is sitting on. There is a little varience due to dfferences in color or material. Because surface temp is the combination of the air temp. and the reflected and radient heat absorbed by the surface.

As I said I use thermometers in the center of all my basking spots. I also have a temp. gun. The readings by the thermometers are pretty much identicle as when you temp. gun them. I test and experiment with everything. Try it you'll see I'm right. Even if you were to dangle the probe in the light you still would not be measuring the air temp. You would have to block the light from hitting the probe to get an air temp. That's why thermometers are always placed outdoors in the shade.

For sure basking temps would be direct sunlight area temps and air temps would be none direct sunlight temps.
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Do not attribute any action to malice that can be explained by stupidity.

In metereology, surface temperature is defined as the air temperature near the surface of the earth.

Your right BDlvr, the thermo probe placed on the hotspot is measuring a surface temperature, but it is also measuring the air temp above the surface. The probe has limited contact with the surface, thus exposing the rest to air.

To me there is no definition of "true temperature" - there are just temperatures. Thermometers placed in the shade measure temps that are limited or unaffected by radiant heat from the sun.

I do not know how we got into Meteorology but I really don't know why this subject is still going.
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Do not attribute any action to malice that can be explained by stupidity.

An entire block of posts, wiped out over silliness : )

You don't need to force feed or issue a laxative, you just need some better temps.

Low to mid 80's are fine for ambient temps, but providing a basking temp of 130F (surface temp, measured with a temp gun) will get your lizard's metabolism up and running, appetite and activity will increase, as will poopsterisms.

At 100-105F for basking, the digestive system is like thick molasses, and it just doesn't run as well as it should.

Best of luck.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Again I dispute this. 105-110 is recommended by almost all credible sources. 130 is just too hot and will cause the ambient to be too hot in most enclosures. Dragons do not want their internal temperature to be 130 so they don't need that hot a basking temp. The problem could be that the basking spot is not reaching the 105-110 range.

He said right from the start...
"What are the basking temps? 100-103*F"

That is too low. 110-130 is what everyone is saying for a high. You do whatever you think is best but either way you need to raise the temp at least 10* to fit into anyones happy range. Good luck with that. Lets stop fighting over who is right both Robyn and Bdlvr have great experience with beardies. If you are using a dryer setup I would look at Bdlvr as a good guide to what you should do with your setup if you are using a soilish mix like Robyn uses I would say for sure you want to stick to his game plan because he is the best at it. Good luck and update us on the situation.
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Do not attribute any action to malice that can be explained by stupidity.