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it looks great. but it seems calm and mellow to me... not anything like my hyper son.

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Nice looking dark Peruvian and a great tail, but what is it "hyper" for?

Joel

I was thinking along the same lines as your question..
I'm assuming the hyper is referring to hyper-melanistic as the boa is darker than normal.
so, I'm thinking about how we and everyone calls hypo-melanistic boas as just "hypos." We don't say the whole thing.. we just call them hypos.

so - maybe it's OK to call the hyper-melanistic boas just plain ol' hypers.

hypers and hypos.

seems fair to me now that I've thought about it.

You can have a Hyper Melanistic, Hyper Erythristic, and others that I can't think of right now. Hypo Melanism is just that, reduced dark pigment. It's a one way street with the Hypo term, where as the Hyper term is like a six lane highway.
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South Central Herpetological

good point. I wasn't aware of all the possibilities with "hyper".

I don't know Eric. Hypo can be used just as much as Hyper. They're opposite prefixes. If you can have more than normal of something, you can also have less than normal of something. You could have hypo-erythristic or, less red than normal.

For instance, I have HYPOglycemia - so, low blood sugar. That's why I'm an @$$ so often If there's one phrase I've had directed at me more often in my life than any other, it's "GO EAT SOMETHING!!!!"
HYPERglycemia is diabetes mellitus - aka, high blood sugar.

Just my thoughts. But like always, I find your contributions to be a valuable part of this, and other forums! btw, you should post a Mata pic here

jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

But isn't a Hypo Erythristic an Anerythristic?
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South Central Herpetological

By definition, no. The prefix "a" or "an" means abscence of, or lack of. So, anerytheristic means a complete lack of red whereas hypoerytheristic would mean reduced red. Just like hypomelanistic boas are different from amelanistic (albino) boas. Hopefully that made some sense...?

Not really, especially since we're not talking in absolutes. How much red is considered normal? I do know the definition of the total lack of red, but who's to say just how much, or less, Red pigment is considered normal? We know that most Central American Boas lack red/pink pigment, so therefore we should label them all Hypo-Erythristic?
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South Central Herpetological

I'm thinking that an answer everyone would be happy with would take more work than I am willing to invest! lol
jb

There are peruvian boas that are very dark, even black. These could be termed "hyper" as in terms of hypermelanistic. Recently though, there is a new line of peruvians that are termed "hypers" as in hyper pigmented. The first I saw here on this forum was one of Gus Renfros at "Rio Bravo" and more from John J. from "the hills of Tennesee". These boas are some of the nicest I have ever seen. I think you could find pics. if you do a forum search. (Tom)

I feel the term "hyper" when used in the description of any animal is usually part of a sales pitch. This snake is a little different so let's call it something. My BCC display a wide range in color and pattern, one of them being very dark. I do not consider it "hyper" anything.

That is what I have been driving at when I ask what does "hyper"
Mean, it is way too broad of a term. Nice litter either way.

Joel

so is the issue with the term hyper, or with the recognition that the boas labeled "hyper" are something different?

I believe they are both issues, I think the lable "hyper" is way to vague and can describe many different traits, those animals from Kevin Walters litter would probably be best described as hypermelanistic as they were noticably darker than their littermates. i am not sure that even hypermelanistic would be fitting or possibly just call them melanistic.

The lable hyper-pigmented accurtely desribes IMO what I have seen in them, the homozygous hyper-pigmented ones are also very different than their litter mates. They are also darker but they have a ton of brilliant color as well so I feel that is a good description for them.

Gus's litters have created a lot of talk and have become very sought after, that is were I feel the lable "hyper" came into play, it was used to feed off an interest in the market and a sales pitch.

As for now we don't know if either bloodline is genetic and to what degree, I have a very strong feeling that we will see in a couple of years that one of them will prove out and live up to it's lable.

I am not suggesting that there is nothing going on geneticly different with the hypers, I hope there is I just think they should have a more specific lable.

this is all just opinion JB and I have no proof either way just my thoughts.

Joel

Hyper can be used for any pigment.... I have seen hypererythristic Peruvians, and I have a hypererythristic Surinam... they have extreme red pigmentation... this isn't something you can really quantify... And generally the term generally is only used to describe very extreme pigmentation... I have a surinam that came from a litter of Pokigron F1s from Dennis Sargent... all the other littermates had no pink or red blushing and the one female I have is deep red on the sides and top of the head.... makes me think that is is more of a mutation rather than just reflective of the bloodline... especially since the parents have no red coloration

Vernon
Nice peru boa but it looks just to have a little more black than normal at such a young age.

Gus (Rio Bravo) i think has something going on in that pucallpa blood. Just my opinion.
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Richard Ceniceros
Tap or take a nap

Wow...............after reading all the responses maybe I should have posted the title as one of my darker Peruvians. It was sold to me as a so called hyper Peruvian along with siblings that were 66% het. I am not not going to try to figure this out. All I wanted to do was post my boa that I thought looked pretty good. I will be very careful from now on what I put in my title. Regradless or not if this animal is hyper for anything or not IMO I like this guy. The person or persons who produced and sold it to me told me one thing but maybe they were just trying to get a better price for this animal. A lesson learned on my part. Thanks. Vernon.

You have a very nice animal make no mistake, until someone breeds two homoygous or hets we will not know for certain what is going on with these different looking peruvians.

realize that this topic has been an on going issue for sometime now, I comment on the topic so that we can get some clarity as to what exactly these animals are or are not.

Please keep showing us the pic's you have of that animal as I know I am interested to see how it matures, also know that no one took issue with you or that animal. You posted that snake as it was represented to you and for all that it is worth I hope that it turns out to be another example of a hyper-pigmented Peruvian... Either way a treasure of a snake.

Take care Vernon.

Joel

Good post Joel,it is an interesting subject. Being a "Morph Boa Guy" but first a Boa guy. I love True Redtail / Bcc and Locality Boas very much. I don't follow as closely as I did a few years back. What I have noticed personally when talking about Peruvian Boas the word Hyper rarely if ever came up back awhile. Mostly Black Peruvians was the term used sometimes melanism/melanistic.
Then I remember Gus sending out his E-mail notification talking about the Peruvians (Pucallpa if memory serves).I believe in the E-mail he mentions the special colored Peruvian babies that popped out. Not certain if he used the term Hyper -Pigmented in the E-mail . He did use that descriptive term (Hyper -Pigmented) I believe where he hosted the pictures and descriptions of the litter.He described the Hyper pigmented Peruvian and how many there were. I think also how it appeared to worked genetically etc...
Next thing people are using the term Hyper Peruvian everywhere,

(using a slightly sarcastic inflection and a small chuckle I say)
kind of funny , ha, ha, ha, LOL

. . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Sorry Above title was supposed to just say "Hey"
None of my post was directed at Vernon or anyone in particular except commenting in general and to Joel's post.
thanks
. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

The morph guys have got to be laughing at this "hyper" label, I know I find it rather funny.

When I see it i imagine a horse and buggy with a snake oil salesmen and a three legged organ grider monkey trying to sell the cure of all cures.

I have always commented on this when I see it posted as I really want the locale guys to come together on this and define what "hyper" is. I have seen many pictures of Gus's hyper-pigmented animals and I will say that with out a doubt there is something very unique going on.

As for the "hypers" I just see dark Peruvians, but that is based on me never having seen them in person. We will see.

Take care Larry.

Joel

I agree with Joel, Vernon. I have no issue with you or the animal. It's a great looking animal and I thank you for sharing pics of it with us all. I look forward to watching it develop in the future.

I have no issue with the man who produced that animal either, but know that the man who produced, and the man who sold it to you are two very different individuals. The individual who produced it never called it anything other than a dark colored normal peruvian.

I too have never seen animals from any of the litters in person, so for all I know the same thing could be going on genetically.
Like I said earlier the re or intentional mislabeling of these animals by the "seller" It just seems like a tactic a shady used car salesman might try to pull. For example the used car salesman buys a DeLorean, decides to label and sell it as a time machine after watching Back to the Future a couple too many time. Sure it's still a nice car, maybe that was a little too far fetched but you get the idea. I hope there are no used car salesman in the audience that took offense to this (or got any ideas)

Take Care, Nick

Nick, Joel and to everyone who else who posted on this thread. Thanks for an eye opening experiance. I wish the best to everyone amd will post pics. of this one as it grows up. Thanks. Vernon.

Let me say this at the beginning, I think all of the animals in question are GORGEOUS and regardless of what they turn out to be, or not, anyone would be lucky to own them!

Having seen Gus's animals in person, I can say with confidence that they are not "wild type" animals. There is SOMETHING going on with them. The method of inheritance APPEARS to be simple recessive based on 2 litters.

Having said that, we've yet to see an animal identified as "hyper" from Gus as an adult. So who knows what they look like as adults. Maybe they're dominant and we don't know it and Gus just had 25% odds, twice. Probably not, but who knows!?

As for the label "hyper" or "hyperpigmented", Gus has the right to label them whatever the heck he wants too. If he wanted to call them MARIO BROS BOAS, he could! The name assigned does NOT have to explain what you see. In this case, I actually think "hyperpigmented" does a GREAT job of describing what you see. The pigment of the boa (pigment is ANY color, not just black) is amped up! The prefix "hyper" means higher, above, beyond, super, etc.. I feel like "hyperpigmented" is accurate. And even if it wasn't, it's not the boa communities place to correct it. We can talk about it though, and I do feel that's what most people are doing.

As for the animals produced by KW and then marketed and sold by JJ, I haven't seen them in person, but the photos I've seen make the animals appear to exhibit similar characteristics as Gus' "hypers", although not as extreme (again, judging from photos only). Perhaps that's an effect of different cameras and lighting, perhaps it's the differences in the lines, or perhaps there is a difference in the expression (or lack of expression) of the genes.

I do feel that the label of "hyper" or "hyperpigmented" should NOT have been used for the animals originating from KW's breeding efforts, and labeled and marketed by JJ. I do not believe JJ had any negative intentions, I just think it's a situation that, in hindsight, turned out not to be the best idea. The way I see it, "hyper" or "hyperpigmented" is a label belonging to Gus's line of animals (kind of like "jungle" belongs to Lars Brandle's line of animals showing pattern and color anamolies). If it turns out that KW's line and Gus's line have the trait known as "hyper", then Rentfro (or RioBravo, or ..?) line hyper and Walters line hyper could be assigned (similar to Kahl and Sharp albino) to lessen confusion over the origins of the animals.

I also think the marketing of the normal appearing siblings as 66% possible hets was perhaps another good-intentioned effort by JJ that may, in the future, show to be a bad idea. Until KW does further work with the animals and at a minimum the results of the litter are reproduced (and at best the offspring produce and shed light on what's going on), assigning a method of inheritance (simple recessive) is in essence guaranteeing something that can't be guaranteed at this point.

Those are just MY thoughts, certainly not facts, just my interpretation of what's going on and my take on things. I'm merely offering them up for others to consider.

As I said at the beginning of this, I think the animals are all BEAUTIFUL and anyone would be lucky to have them, regardless of what the situation turns out to be, or not. And that's coming from someone who doesn't get all nutty over Peruvians!

Thanks for reading, feel free to comment or ask any questions

jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

JB - good write up. For the record I hate it when "Hyper" is used. Hyper pigmented is the correct term to for the ones from Gus’s litters (2006&08). I promise to take all five I have from Gus's 08 litter outside for some photos soon. The two "hyper pigmented" ones are flat out mind-blowing in person. I hope I can capture their color with the old camera. The other three are just as incredible but without the intense colors - just a beautiful yellow/gold background coming in.

I sure would love to see some updated photos of the holdbacks from both litters from Gus. Gus has one heck of a collection.

Take care,

Kevin

You said it in just a few words....DONE!!!

Joel

JB, your input is valued by myself and many others and I thank you as always.

Here is my issue, I feel the person who has done the work to produce such an animal as the hyper-pigmented Peruvians trumps the guy who brokers them and calls them "hyper" you make a great point that if the seller wants to call them "MARIO BROS BOAS" he has that right...no contest.

As far as it not being the boa communities place not to correct that lable, who's place will it be? I will not be the one who takes that responsibility but I will contest it and question it.

To quote KW he calls them hyper for nothing. This whole "hyper"thing was a well planned sales tactic to make more profit off those who were looking for something different.

Gus never used the term "hyper" to my knowledge and has coined the lable hyper-pigmented as his own, the name "hyper" does not belong to Gus.

As stated earlier we must wait to see if this can be proven, I thank you for your input and as always well thought and written response

Take care Johnathan.
Joel

I haven't followed all of Gus's posts on the topic, so I can't be sure one way or the other of his use of various terms, but I do know that when Chris purchased one from Gus in Daytona, Gus wrote "hyper" on the receipt.

As for the promotion of the other line of animals, no one can know what was going through the resellers head. I really do feel that he THOUGHT they were the same trait, just popping up in different litters from different breeders with unrelated animals. And I think he may have jumped the gun with the label.

As for the statement:

"As far as it not being the boa communities place not to correct that lable, who's place will it be? I will not be the one who takes that responsibility but I will contest it and question it."

I agree that we can contest it and question it, but to force a new label on it is something we can't do. We can make our best case, collectively, and present it to the originator, but in the end, it's his choice. I don't feel like we could change the name "hyper" or "hyperpigmented" anymore than we could change the name "mario bros boas". To restate, I still feel "hyperpigmented" is an appropriate label.

On a side note, if I ever produce something unique, inheritable and wacky, I'm calling it the MARIO BROS BOA! Just putting that out there now so no one steals it! lol

Thanks for the input Joel!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

LOL... I thought you would go with something like freckles or speckles, not mario brothers boa Ha!

Yeah when Chris bought that animal and Gus May have labled it "hyper" still at the time of purchase that line already had an established lable....hyperpigmented.

I have no comment as to what the seller of the "hypers" was thinking or intending.

Bottom line is I feel we should be careful as to how we lable our animals, my case in point I think the person who started this thread ended up feeling uncomfortable after reading the replies.

I truly hope Vernon knows that it was not directed at him or his animal. What I am saying is everyone should have fun with a hobby and it pisses me off when people are misguided and sometimes taken advantage of.

I think that it would be safe to say that we all feel that way and hope to work out the kinks.

Thanks JB.

Joel

No offense taken here. This has been a learning experience for me. I hope this Peruvian proves out but if not it is a great boa either way. It is sad that people would misrepresent an animal just to market it..............I am not pointing any fingers at anyone. I am really new to the hobby and am still learning alot of things. I have made many mistakes and will very careful in the future. Thanks. Vernon. PS. If anyone knows how I can get in touch with Kevin Walters could you please let me know.

I hope that your work with those animals will give you results that we would all love to see, and maybe you will have the privlage of naming them yourself.

I would love to see some neat things come from those animals as they are certainly different but above all they are gorgeous both the dark and light ones!

take care vernon.

Joel

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