Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright, I'm really trying to offer my snakes more choices as numerous of the regulars here have suggested.

My question is this : What are other aspects I can allow them to choose from besides just temperature choices and humidity choices?

Should I hold out a geckos and a mouse and let it choose which one it wants?.....j/k - but seriously, should I vary the diet more?

I used to keep my 3.5" - 4.5" Kings in 20 gallon longs, but have found it much "better" to use 40 gallon tanks as they can house an entire foot of top soil and still provide ample epi-terrain usage.

I am human therefore I am somewhat limited to what I can offer in a 40 gallon as that is large as I can house individual snakes at the moment.

I'm just looking for more ways that will allow the snake to choose what's best for them. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

Not to bait Frank but I think a varied diet may be beneficial. If not different prey then prey that have been fed a seasonally varied diet much like what wild snakes are subject to.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Also, in that large of a tank it would be easy to offer different substrates, maybe part aspen, part coco fiber, and some rocks of different sizes, maybe a climbing branch. Offering choices may let the snake explore and exercise.
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Todd Hughes

I like the idea of utilizing different substrates. I currently use standard top soil mixed with a small amount of clay to hold the burrows better.

Should I vary the substrates from ssp to ssp, and if so what? For instance, I have a Cal King and a Brooks in 40 G tanks right now as they are the only (almost) fully grown adults I have at the moment. Is the top soil substrate ideal for both, or should I provide some extremely arid locations in the tank for the Cal King and extremely humid places for the Brooks?

Please note that I understand that all snakes should ideally have access to high humidity levels. But I have been out West and know how arid it is out there where the Cal Kings inhabit(in some areas)..................should I try to mimic this for a Cal King, or would it just be unnecessary? All my snakes have acrylic panels over the top of their cages and I drill out holes as necessary to achieve the humidity level that I want. Their "dens" seem fairly humid"..........keep in mind it's about 50% humid here ever day so it's not hard to achieve humidity levels of 80-90% in localized areas of the tank.

I do arrange the top layer of my cage every so often.......it's a change of scenery to me, and I also feel that the snake "enjoys it" - I know, I know.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

Regarding the Cal kings in arid areas..

Yes they live there, but have adapted a strategy to reduce moisture loss: stay underground where evaporation is negligible and ambient humidity is usually moderate (not high, not low); stay in tight burrows coiled up where much of the snake's surface area is not exposed to drying, moving air; eat moisture rich rodents and lizards and drink the very few times water is available.

Also, you will notice that Cal kings in arid areas are usually much more abundant where ground water exists.

You can do that in captivity by limiting ventilation and adding some moisture to the soil after it evaporates, especially if using undercage heating, as this dries out the substrate like nothing else. Opening the cage door once in awhile provides enough ventilation for kings. Other than that, the cage needs very little. A water bowl in a cage with reduced ventilation will up the humidity if needed, like where I live.

During summer when our humidity here is higher, I don't need to provide water or add moisture to the soil. Just limiting ventilation is all it takes.
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Mark

I like putting different branches and rocks in cages and rotating them between cages from time to time.
This provides something new for the snakes to investigate.
It's not unusual to see them "checking out" a new item placed in their enclosure.

Tim

I am highly in favor of this. I believe rotating objects and providing opportunities for climbing is a highly underrated practice. It may not be essential to the animals survival, but it does contribute to a more stimulating environment, and gives the animal a reason to move around... exercise, explore the environment... To me that is as much a part of natural behavior as eating, drinking and thermoregulating.

I think ball pythons are the strongest example of this kind of stimulation affecting the animals... mainly because of their reputation. But it definitely applies to most snakes. I have seen people who keep balls on newspaper with a bowl and a half-log, and then they complain that ball pythons are inactive and lack personality. Well, what else are they supposed to do? Those that keep them in much more furnished terrariums find that they are actually fairly active by night, and will bask atop branches for extended periods of time.

Kings are more active inherently... but the behavior at night is still very similar. They come out of hiding and look for food or an escape. Utilizing branches also makes better use of the vertical space in a terrarium and promotes exercise, and as everyone knows, exercise is essential for just about anything to truly thrive.

Nicely said and I concur.

That bit about the newspaper shoebox containers couldn't be more true...........it isn't just "boring" for the snake, it is boring for the keeper too.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

Thanks.

Yeah, shoebox hides may be great from a functional standpoint, but they just look so tacky.

Speaking of hides, I recently discovered cork bark. Stick a slab in there and the snake will choose (there's that word again) it over a nearby half-log or cave almost every time. It's very lightweight, so it's easy for the snake to crawl underneath and have total contact with it. It's attractive too, much more so than those half logs in my opinion.

when you have 100 snakes your dont worry if your out of style
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

Well, its not being in style I care about, it's having a setup thats both functional and attractive. I like to observe my snakes and show them to people who come over. From my point of view, putting them on newspaper and shoeboxes is like keeping them in the recycling bin.

any photos ?

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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

Provided that the snake has a suitable cage set-up, I think frequent rearranging wold be frustrating and stressful for the snake. Although a snake in the feild may have many choices for retreat, those retreats probably change very little over time. The rocks are always in the same place, that old log is always there, just decays a bit more each year. If you go in and rearrange it's habitat it may leave the area. How would you have liked it if while you were a child your mom completely rearranged your room once a week? Let the snake become familiar with its environment (be it large or small) then try to alter it as little as possible. It would be better to biuld your snake an obstacle course (a snake gym) and let it utilize that area every now and then for some added stimulation or exercise than to regularly rearrange its home. Regards, Rusty

Good points, And I applaud Indictment for caring enough to try things. I'm just a little aprehensive of your inevitable beat down where everybody jumps in and tells you how it should be done instead of a healthy bantering back and forth where you can explore options and weigh the good and bad and look for good ideas from other keepers.There are benefits to just lurking instead of volunteering to be the next victim. Good luck.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

bob, i think my posts are far from a beatdown. my last post was titled "i have a different view" i emphasize the word "View" i don't claim to know anything which is why my post started off claiming "I Think" not I know. I believe I have constructively attempted to contribute to this thread. Isn't that what a forum is supposed to be about? This is why I spend most of my time as an observer, and try to refrain from frequent posts. You don't know how many informative posts I type, then delete before posting, after asking myself,"Why bother?" This is more of a club than a forum, and apparently I am not a welcome part of it. Point taken Bob. Regards, Rusty

Rusty. I was replying under your post. I think YOU made some good points AND I applaud Indictment for trying new things. You are MORE than welcome here! I was just alluding to how severe things have gotten around here lately when someone like yourself exposes their thoughts and then gets pounded for it. I apologize if it sounded wrong.
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I'd rather try to kiss an angry Pit on the head than get in the middle of some of these threads.

Rusty,

I was reffering to your previous post "going out on a limb" and expressing your opinion freely. After re-reading it I can see how you could take it the way you did. Sorry.

Bob.
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I'd rather try to kiss an angry Pit on the head than get in the middle of some of these threads.

just a misunderstanding all the way around. thanks for clearing the air Bob. No Harm, No Foul. i also commend those who try new things. Regards, Rusty

np
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I'd rather try to kiss an angry Pit on the head than get in the middle of some of these threads.

I didn't read the whole post for fear it would turn ...

I agree with leaving a cage the same always so the snake knows where water is,food corner,poop corner(like they don't just go everywhere and the water bowl too...)....

.....not with all snakes...some don't matter, but let's say baby milks...small subspecies....they make tunnels...why not leave them be....

...anyways...........

...and someone mentioned changing wood from one cage to another ....they like the new smells....?....do they like the new germs?....do they like being in fear a snake will eat them? do they look for that girl they will never ever find?....LOL...
just kidding along but really...not....

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..J Yohe ....

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From what I have noticed..............they don't like new smells, but are "curious" about the nature of them.

After I clean a tank for instance, the king acts like it isn't familiar with it at all................it doesn't smell like home.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

And that is definitely a good point. You can overdo it. Rearranging too often, or making a setup excessively elaborate to where it's just too much work to maintain. Actually, I try to make changes occasionally and gradually. For example, I might swap rocks one week, and two weeks later swap driftwood. Or, I might just move a log from one side of the terrarium to the other. I know that snakes value security over all else...

I really like your jungle gym idea... now that has some possibilities... I've seen custom bi-level terrariums with shelves in them, which make much better use of the vertical space. That is something I'd like to try.

Sometimes I put in new rocks and limbs as I find new and interesting pieces to utilize..............one could argue that by doing so I'm making it all about me, and that may be true. However, I also look for function in new pieces of cage furnishings.

For instance, I just found an extremely nice almost intact cave-like rock formation that I can easily fit into a 40 gallon. I'll try to get pics later (along with my current set up).
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

Temp and humidity are the big two.

Another is type and shape of hides. You said that you have a deep dirt substrate. That is awesome because the can dig whatever size chambers they want. You could try stacking someboards ect on the surface to encourage more top time.

As far as diet...

Some people will tell you that a whole animal is nutrtious enough. My personal opinion is that captive animals are frequently obese due to THREE things.

1)Inactivity
2)Improper temps for deigestion/metabolism
3)High fat lab rodent diet

I feed a mix of chicks and mice to all of my larger snakes and quails to my smaller ones. What is really interesting is that the snakes have distinct preferences for one verse the other at different times of year. I was not expecting that when I started offering a variety. I THINK that the chicks are more quickly digestable than full grown mice, so when females are pounding down food in spring they seem to prefer chicks because they can get more calories faster. Later in the summer when they are depleted of minerals after double clutching they switch over to more mice. I thought it was pretty neat.

Cheers

I sometimes do the same thing with snakes food....when needed I use hamsters to fatten them up.....

......and some snakes will not eat early or late in the year ....but if you switch to Peromyscus they will keep /start feeding.......then switch back to mice when they feel like it........

......they know that different stuff is out and more plentiful at different times of the year

prey size too can make them trigger to feed or not....

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..J Yohe ....49 in 19 days ! wow...

.

What about hampsters is any different than mice? I always felt lie they had so much dang hair that they would just tax the digestive system unesesarily. I know that the peromyscus sp? are leaner. Why would you want even more fat?

I have noticed the prey size preferences. My anthill pythons like HUGE meals, unless they are breeding or gravid in which case they may refuse anything larger than a fuzzy.

Release the animal(s), clean out the tank and fill with 40 gallons of fresh cold brew. Attach a tap to the outside and run the makeshift keg.I have faith you would do very nicely with that choice. No critters to worry about, no temperature gradients to worry about, and I think you know that my choice is beer(of course in a pinch Jack Daniels, Scotch, Tequila, and Vodka would do nicely).

"Faith means not wanting to know what is true."-Voltaire

that really made sense..........

.........duh
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..J Yohe ....49 in 19 days ! wow...

.

Okay, at the risk of being chastised I am going to give my philosophy after months of reading these "choices" threads. First, I would like to say that I see nothing wrong with providing kingsnakes and ratsnakes with choices. On a contrary note, I have been observing and successfully keeping/reproducing snakes for over two decades. During this time I noticed things and developed philosophies that lead me to keep a moderately sized collection of colubrids in the manner as follows:..........My snakes live for nine months of each year at an ambient temperature of 76-78 degrees. They have no overhead lights to create warm spots, and no under tank heat of any kind. My Snakes digest their meals in 2-3 days (hatchling/juveniles) and 3-4 days (adults). That's right, I feed hatchlings every two days tapering to a three then four/five day feeding schedule based on their size. One thing I know is that it works!............ I have no shame in admitting that I like to keep lots of animals and can't provide them all with large enclosures that offer multiple environmental differences within one enclosure. I do however devote such set-ups up to a few individuals in order to study them and which choices they utilize most often. Has anyone thought of this...........If a snakes egg is incubated at 76-78 degrees (as mine are) then are we not from the start, conditioning that snake during its most fragile state of life to thrive at that temp after hatching? I would think it is ideal considering that as stated before, they eat, digest food, and reproduce readily at this consistent temp. By the way, The other three months they are brumating under the standard recipe most keepers use.............One reason I share this information is because hardly anyone knows me, therefore I am not respected, and therefore probably no one will take what I say seriously.............. Remember, I'm not saying that my way is better than the choices method. I am saying that it is very difficult to offer a large collection a large degree of choices in a reasonable amount of space. Note: I would rather restrict choices than run the risk of burning down my house by using heat tape. In my opinion, even when properly used it has at the very least a slight risk of fire hazard. The same can be said about a toaster, but hey.....I love my toast! My respectful regards to all that read this post. Forgive me if I don't reply to any inquires.

If Mother nature had the ability to provide the perfect, constant temp for a colubrid would we chastise her for doing so? We are human beings, and human beings have attempted to manipulate their environment for as long as we know. So is it wrong for us as human beings to experiment to try to find the perfect temp/condition for a given species in order to manipulate their environment to create the optimal captive environment for our product? After all, this is what many are attempting to do by reproducing the choices nature has to offer. This is philosophy

Listen, it sounds like your snakes are doing very well with the set-up that you are providing and you are not going to get any argument out of me. If your snakes are healthy and are breeding and eating for you then you must be doing something right. Period. Thanks for sharing your methods with us. I am sure you will hear other opinions though.

That was a well thought out post.

One question. What type of snakes are you keeping in the temp range 76-78F? That is pretty cool(pun intended)that they digest that quick. Also what part of the country do you live in?

"My snakes live for nine months of each year at an ambient temperature of 76-78 degrees"

i keep alot of transpecos ratsnakes, graybanded kingsnakes, pyros, and a few other ratsnakes in small numbers. sounds too cool/cold to most people but it has worked well for me. no problems with regurge and i grow them all pretty fast, especially the subocs. for me they eat, grow and breed at 18 months, the same as cornsnakes. i never have been able to understand the "Slow Grown" philosiphy for subocs. Regards, Rusty

i live in the lower midwest part of the country. rusty

The more you do, the more fun you will have. Its fun to see these snakes do what THEY do and not simply react to us.

How far you take it is up to you. In the old days, my groups would pair bond, and males would combat(how they did this was totally different then the books said). They taught me what they wanted as far as nesting, and much more.

To see what they did was enjoyable, entertaining, and educational.

For instance, place something in the cage and see what happens, something foreign to them. Even something so simple is educational.

The point is, once you know the basics, then offering more is easy.

But As you can read, I am concerned with the very basics, temperature and humidity choices, as that has a lot to do with their health, and supports other behaviors.

So start simple with the basics. Once your good with that, then move on to more. Good luck

I put in the New York Times. the Wall Street Journal or the yellow pages.
I think you guys are going way overboard with this stuff.Snakes dont care about substrate. They want food,warmth/humidity water and sex.Oh and a few good hideouts.I have used regular garden variety peat moss and i use that same stuff for egg substrate.It also works in the rodent tanks. When its dirty you toss it on your lawn.




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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

...doesn't work so well since it's already saturated with fecal matter!
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Diego

SWCHR

Diego again you have me laughing. How is the weather out there?Have you had spring rain yet? I am so jealous of where you live.

I still plan to try that "Bait n Switch" aka "anole on a leash" trick maybe even today.Last night I used the bait and stuff method on this 07 king(theses ar old pics shes bigger now).I gave her a live fuz to get her to eat then as she swallowed it i stuffed two FT fuzzys in.I could have slid in a 4th but was worried she may cough them all up. She looks like a sausage now.

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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

It's always a good feeling to get those picky ones going.

Weather's crazy out here. 90 one day, 55 the next. I'm waiting for a little stabililzation and I will be hitting it hard. I went out last week looking for Rosies, but nothing was moving, not even the Sceloporus or Uta.
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Diego

SWCHR

It's harder to create a 40 degree thermal gradient with just newspaper though.

If given the choice, I suspect snakes would CHOOSE a foot of top soil over a layer of newspaper pretty consistently.

Again, I have no ill-opinions of anyone who use newspaper, as I use it for some of my herps. However, I am liking the results I've had with the few larger tanks that I did implement larger thermal choices and more diggable substrate.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

I want a 40 degree thermal gradient ? I thought 70 - 85 was fine

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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

Room Temp is 65 F. To create a hot spot of 105 F I use an undertank heater in conjunction with a low wattage bulb. Infrared gun reads 105 surface temp on the large slate slab I I placed on the surface.

It might not be a gradient that encompasses a large area a truly gradual increments, but it does provide more choices.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

no thanks Maybe in a 20 gal tank you can do that but in my tacky boring shoeboxes or my 5 gal tanks that wont happen. I do allow my snakes 3 hours of TV time though.They like Bill Mathews and and they really love baseball games.

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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

Like I said, I'm working with a 40 gallon........baseball? Well at least you're not torturing them with golf.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

40 gal tanks? How many snakes do you have ?

Lampropeltis getula pinnaclei
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

Koodos......did you make that just for this?

Golf on T.V. is painful for me to watch. Then again, not a big fan of baseball either.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

Oh and I only have 6 Kings right now, so I'm not trying to stuff 100s of snakes into separate 40 gallons................yet, lol!
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

Are you the guy that had mites all over your dead kingsnake last week?
Last week I found a 50 gal tank someone was throwing out.What do those things cost new and used with lid ?

BTW I keep my corns in 10 and 20 gal tanks

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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

Nope, I've never had mites and I've never had a King die on me.......yet
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

I made that pics several years ago.You mentioned golf so it was perfect.
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L