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I have this very nice looking girl here. I just can't figure out what she is exactly. Nothing is known of her background so that is of no help. But I'm sure some of you long time breeders out there may have an idea as to what kind of morph she is.

She looks very much like a candy cane but the colour on her head really throws me off. Perhaps a cross with a rat snake? What do you guys think?

Thank you-
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Phil Red Hernandez-

1) Can you provide a photo of the animal’s ventrals? That would be a big help in "identifying" the snake.

2) I am not saying you have a hybrid, BUT, there are several markers on the animal that suggest it may be a hybrid. The head pattern is not "correct" nor are the dorsal blotches. Many of the blotches split and appear to be "sliding" off the corn. They are the ones that form the "Mickey Mouse" heads That is a definite Emoryi trait.

D) MOST corns are not very banded unless they are selectively bred for that trait or unless they have emoryi or some other species in them. Since you have no information on the genetics, then it is hard to say which this is, but my suspicion is an emoryi influence.

My current guess is to say it is an emoryi/corn cross likely from the Candy Cane variety (as you suggested). I reserve the right to change my opinion after seeing pics of the belly. My hunch is that the belly will be patterned very much like an Emoryi and not a corn.

dc

Here is the best ventral picture I could get. This little girl was just all over the place and wouldn't stay still.

Then here I was able to get her still long enough to get this close up. I'm not too sure amels are supposed to have black pigment in their eyes. But then maybe I never really payed that much attention before.

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Phil Red Hernandez-

when I looked at the original picture my first thought was emoryi/corn cross. The higher saddle count and shape of the saddles.
the color did kind of throw me a little though.
It is more candy cane colored.
No way to be sure 100% but my guess (with that ventral shot) would be emoryi/corn.
But I could be wrong.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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Unfortunately I can't find a picture of her from a few months back. But when she was about half the size she is now, the banding on her was a much brighter red. Then with each shed the colour is turning more and more of a red-orange colour.
Either way, I think she looks great with the way the colour on her head fades the way it does.
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Phil Red Hernandez-

Whatever is all in it, it is definitly a unique and very good looking snake.

First thoughts were that it was ultramel candy cane. This hasnt been ruled out but with new pics it is leaning more towards a hybrid not that an ultrmel candy cane isnt.

If you can get some better photos we could be able to help more
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Dan S.
Crotalus & Company-- Captive Bred Reptiles
Venom-Center -- Venomous Community
Wisconsin Reptile Community
Herp-edia-- the online reptile encyclopedia
Hybrid Herps-- Hybrid Community

Well she's currently going into a shed cycle. But here are some new pictures I just took. Perhaps these will help some more.

Ventral pic

Top view

Side view

Head close up

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Phil Red Hernandez-

I am more convinced that it is not pure. Can't tell you it is an emoryi x corn but I would bet money that it isn't pure corn.

dc

I forgot to inclulde my reasons why I think it is not pure corn. Some are repeats to my original answer but here they are anyway.

Blotches are not corn like, even for a banded corn. Your snakes blotches are more broken like an emoryi's bands. I can also see a possible Bairds influence on the dorsal and head pattern. Thebelly is plain but doesn't look like a motley belly.

I have included a very poor photo of a 277 Bairds I caught years ago. Wish I had kept him now but oh well. You can kind of see the pattern similarities. The bairds influence would also lend to the very light ground coloration.

SO, no sense beating a dead horse, I am convinced it is a cross of a corn and some other rat snake. Hope this helps

dc

Thank you all for your input. I myself am pretty positive that this little girl isn't a pure corn. As to what exactly is mixed in there I do not know. I know that there are several possibilities as to what she may be crossed with, whether she's a creamsicle or some new hybrid candy cane type. What ever she may, she is one very nice looking girl and as soon as she sheds I'll be posting new pictures.
Again, thank you all for your help on trying to figure this out. From here on we'll just have to wait and see how she turns out as an adult.
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Phil Red Hernandez-

The head pattern and fading of the head pattern looks more like a frosted corn than anything else previously mentioned.
I would suspect a grey rat, or yellow rat ancestry more than an Emory. However many Frosted corns do have Emory blood as well.

I'm trying to learn more about corns and know just the basics about genetics.

To me, it appears more creamsicle. I see the hybrid evidence, but I thought candy canes were more red/white banded and creamsicles had the varying ranges of the color spectrum from orangish, yellow, to more red.

I'd appreciate it if someone could explain it a bit to me.

Candy Cane is an amelanistic Miami Phase. there are red and white Candys and orange and white candys.

Creamscicles are the amelanistic version of an intraspecific hybrid between a corn and a great plains rat snake (Pantherophis emoryi). Most of them have an orange color, sometimes you'll see some that are more yellow, and the high red ones usually have a lot more corn blood in them than they have emoryi.

I'm leaning very heavy towards creamscicle with this snake.

I didn't realize there were orange and white candies...I've only seen red and white. But I haven't really been looking hard....

Laura this is my male orange candy cane
Tom

nm

My girl there is in a shed cycle so she rather dull. But I will get new pictures as soon as she sheds.

But here are a couple pictures of creamsicles. You can see what they look like as babies and then as an adult.

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Phil Red Hernandez-

>>My girl there is in a shed cycle so she rather dull. But I will get new pictures as soon as she sheds.
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>>But here are a couple pictures of creamsicles. You can see what they look like as babies and then as an adult.
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>>Phil Red Hernandez-

not all creamsicles look the same
I have creamsicles ranging from orange orange to almost reverse okeetee looking. Sold plenty that were red.
It really does just depend on the amount of corn.
That is why some don't like the name creamsicle for all corn/emoryi crosses expressing amelanism.
I personally like it.
Although it isn't a perfect descriptive it does let you know there is emoryi and amelanism involved.
Other then use of the actual genetics involved there aren't many "morph" names that ALL indivuals match.
Lavenders, bloodreds, snows, caramels ...etc etc etc

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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Thanks everyone, that's pretty much what I thought about the creamsicles. It was the candy cane I wasn't as familiar with. I have creamsicles and the adults look like your top pic, but the offspring range to match all of your pics. That part I feel confident about.

I think I was getting confused when I was reading the other set of replies because I never thought of a candy cane as a hybrid. I also never thought of candy cane as having so much orange. But I'm very inexperienced, especially when it comes to determining morphs by hatchling pics!

For what it's worth...I'd still vote for creamsicle.

Well I am glad that this post was able to help you out in the way you needed it. Now I myself well just have to wait and see just what this little girl ends up looking like as she gets bigger. If she developes a lot more colour then she may very well be a creamsicle. But right now only time will tell.
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Phil Red Hernandez-