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How long can snake not eat without worry

wpglaeser2003 Mar 10, 2009 11:49 AM

Going into the Winter, my kingsnake (similar to Jalisco milksnake) started only eating once a month. Now, it's been since Jan 3rd that he last ate. He shed since then (a few days ago) and seems active/fine... just ignores the mice I put in there. I've tried different sizes, left them there a couple days sometimes. I see the container gets moved, but maybe that's just by him pushing it as he moves around it.

My son had a grey-banded that starved to death, but I think that took 8 months of not-eating. So far only 2 here. Should I worry? Temps haven't changed. He seems comfortable, and I'm putting the warm mouse in there early evening.

Thanks!

Walt

Replies (39)

Bluerosy Mar 10, 2009 12:04 PM

If it is a male he may want to breed. During breeding season it is common for males to shut down.

Do you have an adult female kingsnake or milksnake in the room? If so, he may be smelling her phormones.

Another thing is temps. Do you provide undertank heating or an overhead heat source?

Mosiac Florida king:

wpglaeser2003 Mar 10, 2009 12:14 PM

There is a fully grown female cornsnake in the same room. Do you think if I move him to a different room he may be less frisky and start eating?

I use overhead, but not very strong. He has eaten fine with this same setup for years. He has plenty of hides and a thick layer of cypress mulch. I freshened the mulch the other day, mainly because I saw bugs on his thawed mouse. I was worried they were some sort of mites and didn't want them on my snake. He hasn't been soaking in his water, so I think he's OK there...

P.S. can mites or fleas survive a freezing/rethaw process?? Or do you think they came from the mulch?

Bluerosy Mar 10, 2009 12:46 PM

First get an undertank heating source. Overhead lighting is not good for temp thermoregulation. Snakes like to absorb heat from ground sufaces and not over head.

The female corn may have triggered his libido. If this is the case , at this point, it would be to late to remove the corn from the room. Either way I think you need to get an undertand heating pad of some sort and place it on one end of the cage.

I have never seen mites on a F/T mouse.Not even sure if rodent mites can be transferred to a reptile host. Maybe somebody else can chime in and answer the mouse/mite question.

Peabino (Peanut butter x lavender albino)

wpglaeser2003 Mar 10, 2009 01:19 PM

Thanks!

That's a beautiful snake, by the way.

I had an undertank pad before, but it seemed very hot. I was afraid the snake would get burned. Unless there's some way to insulate it a bit...

I thought the overhead would be like the Sun. All three snakes have that setup and sometimes the corns take advantage of it, especially after eating. Maybe kingsnakes are different... anyway, he usually hides all the time anyway and comes out in the late afternoon, early evening to roam. Seems pretty happy and not stressed. His scales are beautiful.

Thanks again!

Walt

viper9 Mar 10, 2009 02:09 PM

My ball python burned himself on an under tank heat pad so I now use the same setup you do. And I haven't had any issues yet.

Mike

Bluerosy Mar 10, 2009 03:17 PM

I had an undertank pad before, but it seemed very hot. I was afraid the snake would get burned. Unless there's some way to insulate it a bit...

It wasn't one of those cheap blue ones you find at reptile shows, was it?

When using an under the tanke heater just place the heat on one end of the cage. This offers the snake a range of temps to choose from. I just use shavings and place a board on top that extends from trhe cool to hot area. this way the snakes have a hide and can thermoregulate on their own.

You can also get a cheap rheostat (light dimmer) and adjust the heat.

Hypo eastern x Florida kings (these also naturally intergrade in the wild) :

wpglaeser2003 Mar 10, 2009 05:02 PM

No... it was a ZooMed... it just seemed to get too hot and there was no knob to regulate it.

Walt

snake_bit Mar 10, 2009 01:37 PM

Ya may wanna get rid of that mulch or clean it.
I like corn snakes,what kind do you have?

-----
"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

wpglaeser2003 Mar 10, 2009 01:47 PM

Oh... I yanked him out right away... flushed the mouse and removed the mulch, wiped down the tank, and put in fresh mulch. that's the only time I've ever seen anything like that.

My daughter has an Okeetee much like yours. She's an eating machine.

My son has a younger male Lavender corn. Very pretty. Can't wait for him to get to full size. He's a little more private about eating than the female Oke.

viper9 Mar 10, 2009 02:15 PM

I've had bugs come from cyprus that I bought at the hardware store. The bugs were tiny and grey. I've heard that if you bake it the odds of having bugs come from the mulch is nearly 0.

Hope that helps
Mike

gaboonx Mar 10, 2009 03:18 PM

>>I've had bugs come from cyprus that I bought at the hardware store. The bugs were tiny and grey. I've heard that if you bake it the odds of having bugs come from the mulch is nearly 0.
>>
>>Hope that helps
>>Mike

I highly doubt any bugs came from the mouse since it was frozen, however as was already mentioned the substrate you are using may contain eggs and or bugs, insects and arachnids. Personally I would uses a newspaper bedding with shredded newspaper on top at least until you know for certain the source of the bugs. The oven approach may work for the mulch but the risk of a fire and or not killing them is still a possibility.

I personally wouldn't use a UTH (under tank heater) unless you have a decent thermostat hooked up to it, same holds true with the light source as to high wattage bulb will cook your animal.
I personally prefer radiant heat source over any of the above but I understand it doesn't work for everyone.

Some of my snakes will go off feed for 3 months but make sure temps are stabl, try to get a nice temp gradient and offer food once a week at MOST! Also you might have to try with a live hopper if this goes on to long. Another option toss the F/T mouse and snake in a large paper bag left in the cage over night and see what happens. If none of this works scenting maybe needed.

Hope this helps.
-----
Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Bluerosy Mar 10, 2009 03:27 PM

I personally wouldn't use a UTH (under tank heater) unless you have a decent thermostat hooked up to it, same holds true with the light source as to high wattage bulb will cook your animal.
I personally prefer radiant heat source over any of the above but I understand it doesn't work for everyone.

Some of my snakes will go off feed for 3 months but make sure temps are stabl, try to get a nice temp gradient and offer food once a week at MOST! Also you might have to try with a live hopper if this goes on to long. Another option toss the F/T mouse and snake in a large paper bag left in the cage over night and see what happens. If none of this works scenting maybe needed.

WOW! I have been breeding snakes for almost 40 years and I about completely disagree with all of your post.

There is so much there I don't even know where to begin.

wpglaeser2003 Mar 10, 2009 05:07 PM

Begin!!! Please!!! lol

Walt

gaboonx Mar 10, 2009 06:29 PM

>>I personally wouldn't use a UTH (under tank heater) unless you have a decent thermostat hooked up to it, same holds true with the light source as to high wattage bulb will cook your animal.
>>I personally prefer radiant heat source over any of the above but I understand it doesn't work for everyone.
>>
>>Some of my snakes will go off feed for 3 months but make sure temps are stabl, try to get a nice temp gradient and offer food once a week at MOST! Also you might have to try with a live hopper if this goes on to long. Another option toss the F/T mouse and snake in a large paper bag left in the cage over night and see what happens. If none of this works scenting maybe needed.
>>
>>
>>
>>WOW! I have been breeding snakes for almost 40 years and I about completely disagree with all of your post.
>>
>>There is so much there I don't even know where to begin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

I been reading idiotic responses on the internet for 15 years, this post contains so much useless information I really don't know where to begin either..

Please explain as I have been using most of these methods for 20 years.
-----
Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Bluerosy Mar 10, 2009 06:40 PM

Please explain as I have been using most of these methods for 20 years.

If you have been doing it this way for 20 years it might take me another 20 to explain it.

Read some threads on here between FR and TonyD.

gaboonx Mar 10, 2009 06:56 PM

>>Please explain as I have been using most of these methods for 20 years.
>>
>>If you have been doing it this way for 20 years it might take me another 20 to explain it.
>>
>>Read some threads on here between FR and TonyD.

So your point will be revealed to me through other peoples posts, not even in this thread? I rather take the 20 years and read what you have to say....
-----
Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Bluerosy Mar 10, 2009 07:14 PM

So your point will be revealed to me through other peoples posts, not even in this thread? I rather take the 20 years and read what you have to say....

Well then, just read my posts.

Jason,
Honestly I think it is quite obvious what the differences are and why. These things have been discussed many times on here and the only poeple who agree with your 20 year methods are newbies. Just read some of the post below and even above this one. KNOW who it is that is writing and somehow you will figure it all out.

gaboonx Mar 10, 2009 07:34 PM

>>So your point will be revealed to me through other peoples posts, not even in this thread? I rather take the 20 years and read what you have to say....
>>
>>Well then, just read my posts.
>>
>>Jason,
>>Honestly I think it is quite obvious what the differences are and why. These things have been discussed many times on here and the only poeple who agree with your 20 year methods are newbies. Just read some of the post below and even above this one. KNOW who it is that is writing and somehow you will figure it all out.

Rainer,

Newbie that's just great, I think instead of trying to be an "elitist" you might want to re-read my post from the point of a snake that is refusing food. I really don't have time to troll this forum and read each and every one of its threads.

A question, if your penutbutterXjellyXjamXbutterpeacn inst eating what would you try and why? Instead of trying to bash me, why not provide some constructive useful information and state your opinion and maybe help this snake live... Speaking of which as a customer I know who I will not be buying my snakes from in the future..... Thanks for that!
-----
Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Bluerosy Mar 10, 2009 08:16 PM

Instead of trying to bash me, why not provide some constructive useful information and state your opinion and maybe help this snake live...

I do provide lots o constructive information. As anyone knows I have been doing this on here (this forum) since 2003 and I still do. Problem I have with you and some others that come on here every week with the same questions. I refuse to answer questions that have been answered a couples day ago.

Sorry if i offended you. That was not my intent.

gaboonx Mar 11, 2009 07:08 AM

>>Instead of trying to bash me, why not provide some constructive useful information and state your opinion and maybe help this snake live...
>>
>>I do provide lots o constructive information. As anyone knows I have been doing this on here (this forum) since 2003 and I still do. Problem I have with you and some others that come on here every week with the same questions. I refuse to answer questions that have been answered a couples day ago.
>>
>>Sorry if i offended you. That was not my intent.

Rainer,

You can provide useful information and do, however your intent was to belittle me why I am not certain. This is a public forum for ALL not just one single group, people will always ask the very same question that was answered three threads below. Point is you don't always have to take the time to read them or even respond, my suggestions were valid and have worked for many others in the past as it pertains to his question. If you don't agree with me then state why, simple.

The sad fact is with this industry is that instead of this person asking the breeder/pet store whom he purchased the snake from he comes here and finds a bash feast 2009, is this what we want to show people? Heck maybe he did ask the breeder and got the same response as you gave me above... "I refuse to answer questions that have been answered a couples day ago."

Remember when you ask the forum about what security software you should use? DO YOU REALIZE how many times in a DAY I get asked that very same question, I don't believe I gave you some coined response I gave you my opinion and why.. 40 years should have tought you one thing and that is customers are always watching even when you don't know it... Anyway this forum has changed since I started reading it, I am not sure why...
-----
Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

wpglaeser2003 Mar 11, 2009 08:56 AM

Guys... please don't turn my thread into a flame war...

Thanks!

Walt

charleshanklin Mar 11, 2009 09:46 AM

>>Guys... please don't turn my thread into a flame war...

This is the kingsnake forum and that's what they do!! LOL

Most of us feel your pain!

bizkit421 Mar 11, 2009 01:14 PM

I think you missed that part were he said he's been leaving the mice in the cage for a couple days, so did you think maybe it might be gnats? I know it doesn't take long for a mouse to start to rot and attract bugs, and they don't always come from the bedding...
-----
~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

snake_bit Mar 11, 2009 01:19 PM

I bet Fluffy would love that mouse

-----
"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

bizkit421 Mar 11, 2009 01:21 PM

nah, she prefers them to still be swimming on their own, and I prefer she gets them before they get fuzzy...

Why do all your responses come back to Fluffy?
-----
~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

snake_bit Mar 11, 2009 01:44 PM

A piranha named Fluffy is more interesting then all these overthought snake keeping ideas that I read here eg:redecorating snake tanks.How big is Fluffys tank?
Is she given substrate choices?
-----
"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

bizkit421 Mar 11, 2009 01:48 PM

She's in a 55 gallon tank, and I thought about letting her pick the substrate, like does she like aspen or carefresh better, but she wouldn't get out of the water to give me an idea...

She currently has some minnow friends to keep her company, but I've noticed they've been slowly disappearing, so I guess they're running away...

That smarta$$ comment reminds me I need to pull her stand out away from the wall and make sure none of the minnows have been bailin out and fallin behind the tank... Goldfish tend to do that and its really gross, but I haven't seen the minnows do it yet...
-----
~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

elaphopeltishow Mar 10, 2009 04:10 PM

Forever once they are dead. it's a bit trickier while they are still alive however.

viper9 Mar 10, 2009 07:20 PM

That's nice man, real nice. Lol

Mike

saikyan Mar 10, 2009 05:58 PM

Is it possible the mouse isn't warm enough? Some snakes will refuse cold prey. Maybe give the mouse a little more time to warm up.

davesfiles Mar 11, 2009 12:46 AM

Greetings from a Newbie.
I had a breeding collection of Epicrates of the Carribean about 25 years ago. And a few colubrids to boot. 20 years ago, they were all stolen. I took up gardening. And became quite proficient at my traded-in addiction.
One thing I've learned over time, is that "What works for one person may not work for another person".
Such as soils. My friend, one county north of me, can take a bucket of salty estuary muck, rip a branch off a rose, jam it in the muck, and within 2 weeks, roots are coming out the bottom of the bucket, and the danged thing is blooming. When I try his method, which he swears is the only way to grow a rose cutting, I get a bucket of stinky muck with blue fur growing on the surface in about 3 days. When I do rose cuttings, I use sterlilized clippers, make cuts at specific nodes of growth of a specific color range, stick the cuttings in sterilized pots, full of nutrient enriched sterile soil-less planting medium , and water in with KLN. I get 100% success. When my friend tries my method, he gets pots of blue fur. Hence: "What works for one person may not work for another person".

I kind of stumbled across kingsnake.com by sheer accident about 5 months ago, after a friend at work talked me into going to a reptile show (and I came home with 9 snakes)... I've been sitting here reading lots of information and keeping notepads loaded with information. Some of the information I will keep and use; some of it I will ditch. I will utilize what I understand; what works for me.
Mulch or cocofiber or whatever the substrate; we all have relationships with the products with which we understand. As individuals. We, too, are living beings. And we utilize what works for us. One has, I suppose, the option to accept differences of opinion with logic, or with emotion, or with another abstract perspective I have not considered. Or perhaps with a blend of these abstracts. I am hoping my logic is in control of the words I type tonight. Not the E word.
Regarding the original thread, I am not psychic, I have not seen a picture of the snake that has not eaten. I purchased several high end cornsnakes off of classifieds here; some of them went quirky-wurky on their feeding during the winter months. Perhaps this is normal. Perhaps with heat tapes and thermostat controls, they would have continued eating normally. Perhaps this, perhaps that. Speculation is not factual information, thus, it need not be presented. A "rule" should not be based upon an exception. I'd read on one thread somewhere on kingsnake.com about a product called "NutriBAC". It allegedly contains bacteria and enzymes for the reptile stomach which assist the reptile to digest food. If no food is present in the gut, it makes the critter hungry and increases appetite. AFTER getting the heat tapes and thermostat stuff setup, to keep my snakes at 80 degrees on one side of the enclosure (cooler on the other side, further away from the heat, so the critter can go where it feels "right" for itself within said enclosure), I added a bit of the powder to the drinking water, and following package labeled directions, changed it daily. The next time food was offered, the non-feeders fed right away. I dunked the food in a little more of the product (just a trace amount) to make sure.
As with fertilizer on plants, a little is fine; too much of any good thing (like beer) can be a bad thing. Better safe than sorry.
I do not KNOW for a FACT, but Suspect that captive born/bred animals have lesser digestive bacteria in their guts. In the wild, they would likely ingest wild food loaded with micro-organisms; whether from consuming other cold blooded prey such as lizard hatchlings or earthworms or bugs or whatever is a subject for further/deeper study on my behalf. Culture-grown mice/rodentia or any kind of food source which is from culture (not nature) is likely to contain less beneficial micro-organisms. The food source may have been raised to grow fast and contain a lot of protein and be low fat, buit protein alone is not everything a living organism requires to be healthy. It will live, however, living and thriving are two entirely different situations of lifestyle. Again, I do not KNOW for a FACT, but Suspect these things.
I wish there had been a site like this back when I was breeding Epicrates striatus fosterii. Anyways, please accept what little hopefully useful info is contained herein, and try to let the logic stay in control.
You are all VERY appreciated by me.
Nobody can make themselves look good by trying to make someone else look bad, and
You can't convince people if you alienate them.
Warm Regards,
dave

markg Mar 11, 2009 03:18 PM

Being this time of year, if the snake is a male, I wouldn't be too concerned as long as the following are done:

1. Provide a heated area of 85 deg
2. Provide a humid area (as suggested by others, a tupperware-type container filled with water and holes in the lid, this will provide some humidity if needed).

3. Soak the snake in 1/4 inch of water for 5 minutes, that will hydrate it. Winter low humidity can take its toll. Hydrated snakes eat better. Too low of humidity and the snake wants to go underground and hide.

4. When the snake does start feeding again, FEED IT as much as it wants. The 1-per-week schedule is not adequate during the active times. When they want food, give it to them. They will have plenty of days where they do not want/need food. When my males do feed, they get 2-3 meals per week if they will eat that (most eagerly eat that during some months and refuse food or eat less in other months).

I had a male Sinaloan eat 5 mice on one day, after refusing food all breeding season. Kings/milks can eat when they want/need to. It is at those times that we should provide. Of course, the hotspot has to be there too.
-----
Mark

Bluerosy Mar 11, 2009 05:55 PM

Being this time of year, if the snake is a male, I wouldn't be too concerned as long as the following are done:

1. Provide a heated area of 85 deg
2. Provide a humid area (as suggested by others, a tupperware-type container filled with water and holes in the lid, this will provide some humidity if needed).

3. Soak the snake in 1/4 inch of water for 5 minutes, that will hydrate it. Winter low humidity can take its toll. Hydrated snakes eat better. Too low of humidity and the snake wants to go underground and hide.

4. When the snake does start feeding again, FEED IT as much as it wants. The 1-per-week schedule is not adequate during the active times. When they want food, give it to them. They will have plenty of days where they do not want/need food. When my males do feed, they get 2-3 meals per week if they will eat that (most eagerly eat that during some months and refuse food or eat less in other months).

I had a male Sinaloan eat 5 mice on one day, after refusing food all breeding season. Kings/milks can eat when they want/need to. It is at those times that we should provide. Of course, the hotspot has to be there too.
-----
Mark

Thank you very much Mark. I am glad somebody knows what they are doing!

wpglaeser2003 Mar 12, 2009 09:02 AM

Wow... good advice. I'll put the humid hide setup back in.

And I've only been feeding our snakes every 2 weeks. I was worried about them getting too fat. Do they get that many meals in the wild? I'd think they might find a nest and get their fill, but then not find anything for weeks...?

viborero Mar 11, 2009 10:54 PM

...obviously you answered your own question: 8 months. Why would you let a snake waste away for 8 months? And why are you so content to wonder if it may be happening again? Educate yourself - buy some books; embrace UTH and rheostat technology; CONSULT A VET.

There's some good advice in the responses above. Please don't let this snake waste away. That's just cruel and unnecessary.
-----
Diego

SWCHR

wpglaeser2003 Mar 12, 2009 09:06 AM

The best advice I got so far was the humidity thing. I'm gonna try that tonight.

The grey-banded dying was horrible. Even when it died, it wasn't thin. It looked perfectly healthy. We tried everything, just like I'm trying now. The message I got back then was that grey-bandeds are notoriously picky eaters. I kept offering it food and couldn't figure out if it was starving why wasn't it eating the goddamn food right in front of it??????????????? Thanks for rubbing salt in the wound.

viborero Mar 12, 2009 09:53 AM

A reptile vet? People on forums can't diagnose your snake.
-----
Diego

SWCHR

wpglaeser2003 Mar 12, 2009 01:45 PM

Reptile vets are extremely hard to find, especially one you can trust to have tons of experience with them. I depend on help from knowledgable experts on the forum. Thanks anyway.

viborero Mar 12, 2009 07:44 PM

Because that's obviously worked so well for you in the past...

Either way, I hope your King gets better and that it doesn't pass away.

Best of luck.
-----
Diego

SWCHR

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